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Wulfolme posted:Your last three posts have been talking down to people about their worth as human beings, rephrasings of the idea "You are a bad person and I am better than you." If you're going to worry so much about signalling goodness you should watch out for slipping into signalling superiority. there might be a bit of difference between directly criticizing specific statements individuals have made and wishing despair upon an imaginary group of people who you assume to be ideologically incorrect i dunno though i'm not a whiny sociopath
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Jun 18, 2015 20:10
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Let the state burn, get your laughs in. You can't force people to make the right decision just like you can't rescue a drowning man. Hand wringing about it helps no one. You can parade around that 46% number, but most of those people voted for a guy who had the exact same plan on a longer timetable. Their monument to failure will save countless others by the thorough discrediting of the ruinous ideas that brought this situation to fruition. If the opponent won it might have been nicer for a time but they'd end up in the exact same situation but with no clear perpetrator to blame. If you hate the Kochs then you should hate the poor who support them. They are both equally brainwashed and if swapped would undoubtedly have pursued the same goals with the biggest variation being their competence in doing so. gently caress them. They don't care about you. You've better spent saving yourself than to get pulled under with them. If your ideology's success is based around people not feeling hate or jealousy or anger then you should go read up on the friction of war. This isn't war, but it is conflict. Academics are near useless in the trenches. SlipUp fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 22:56
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*cocks keyboard like shotgun* i'm ready for battle, sir
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Jun 18, 2015 22:57
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I doubt you've legitimately helped anyone because you only seem to indulge in ethics when it serves your smug sense of self satisfaction. Go hand hold all those poor ignorant rednecks if it makes you feel better, but they'll see right through it just as easily as we do and you won't change poo poo.
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Jun 18, 2015 23:01
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ah yes, i must be a hypocrite because you've only seen me mocking you for being a moron and not other people when you piss on theoretical people over the internet, that is good. when i piss on actual people over the internet, that is bad. i am Badman
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Jun 18, 2015 23:05
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I'm calling you a hypocrite because in supposed support of whatever enlightened ideology you do nothing but act like a oval office, which seems to serve you rather then your cause. Also, I have seen you posting in response to other people for a long time. It's impossible not to.
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Jun 18, 2015 23:07
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i dont know why you think me pointing out that you're making dumbass statements has to be in support of some rarefied ideology maybe it's a defense mechanism to deal with the negative emotions i created in your head and heart when i said mean things about your poorly considered arguments about how rednecks should all die
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Jun 18, 2015 23:10
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You've got nothing. I never said they should all die. You were wrong in your other post too. I did say it's okay to piss on people, it's you who took the opposite stance while simultaneously falling into a flamewar with someone who disagrees with you at the drop of a hat after all that bullshit about hand holding people to help them even if they're ignorant. I'll let you cap it off. It's like I said with drowning people.
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Jun 18, 2015 23:16
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Surely, if error in judgment is enough to justify a person's suffering per se, then any amount of suffering of any of us experience is justified, since we all err constantly. To err is human, right? There's a barely latent sadism present in "hahaha gently caress those people from another region" over "there but for the grace of God." Even if you've been reliably leftist all your life, you're very much relying on the bootstraps/self-made man fallacy if you don't acknowledge that under different circumstances you might have adopted a different ideology.
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Jun 18, 2015 23:37
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Absolutely, but the error has to play out. Swooping in to save people who don't want to be saved is going to embolden them to their cause, not sweeten them to yours. You can't take away their agency to make that mistake. Let them make it. Should we feel guilty for not dumping out their democratically elected officials against their will? Are they going to like us all the better for us telling them we're doing it for their kids? The lovely experiment must die. We aren't conducting it, only observing it. e:If a bunch of lovely republican congressman decide to go after states offering comprehensive birth control and abortion services are we going to sit back and go "Oh gee, they mean well?" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 18, 2015 23:45
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SlipUp posted:Absolutely, but the error has to play out. Swooping in to save people who don't want to be saved is going to embolden them to their cause, not sweeten them to yours. You can't take away their agency to make that mistake. Let them make it. Should we feel guilty for not dumping out their democratically elected officials against their will? Are they going to like us all the better for us telling them we're doing it for their kids? The lovely experiment must die. We aren't conducting it, only observing it. this reads like someone bitterly explaining why they're home alone on prom night (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 18, 2015 23:49
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SlipUp posted:Absolutely, but the error has to play out. Swooping in to save people who don't want to be saved is going to embolden them to their cause, not sweeten them to yours. You can't take away their agency to make that mistake. Let them make it. Should we feel guilty for not dumping out their democratically elected officials against their will? Are they going to like us all the better for us telling them we're doing it for their kids? The lovely experiment must die. We aren't conducting it, only observing it. Under our constitutional structure, they'll definitely suffer the consequences of their poor decisions. It'd be bad, as you say, if the rest of us swept in as things went wrong and reversed their decisions, but nobody outside of the state has the power to do so. But if and when things progress to the point within the state where things degenerate to the point where things are bad enough that they cry out for help, I'm not one to deny them. Indeed, let opposition politicians make hay out of it, or let the same idiots make the same mistakes; it makes no difference to me. I would rather permit Kansas (by the will of its electorate) to be perpetually on the edge of disaster even while receiving federal largess than legitimize the "tough love" ethos conservatives bandy about, i.e., "they'll never learn if we support them!"
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Jun 19, 2015 00:00
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So what exactly is it we can do to help Kansas? I don't see an outside force can intervene again without an election to fund or a bill for federal aid to write letters about. Is anyone in the US congress even pushing for anything for Kansas?
Twinty Zuleps fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 00:00
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Wulfolme posted:So what exactly is it we can do to help Kansas? Probate posters who dare suggest that the voters hold any responsibility for the actions of the officials they elected.
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Jun 19, 2015 00:59
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This seems like a pointless argument because no matter what happens Kansas will be forced to live with their own decisions, no one is going to "swoop in to save" anyone whether you want them to or not so I don't even understand why it is being discussed.
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Jun 19, 2015 01:04
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MaxxBot posted:This seems like a pointless argument because no matter what happens Kansas will be forced to live with their own decisions, no one is going to "swoop in to save" anyone whether you want them to or not so I don't even understand why it is being discussed. I'm sorry but if you aren't blindly calling for the Federal government to bail out Kansas (please ignore the fact that they tried to and Kansas literally refused the money) while holding a candlelight vigil at your monitor you're a goddamn monster.
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Jun 19, 2015 01:06
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I'm getting some civil war vibes from this thread. We let the slave owners survive the first civil war , maybe we don't let them survive this time. Money is speech and Koch is worth more than the state. Not too difficult to put 1+1 together. Let's put together the dots. We all know it right? Why do people side with it when it's so obvious?
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Jun 19, 2015 01:10
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Side with what?
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Jun 19, 2015 01:14
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down with slavery posted:Probate posters who dare suggest that the voters hold any responsibility for the actions of the officials they elected. 3rd party candidates have a pretty difficult time getting on the ballot in Kansas, last year for example only the libertarian party got a candidate on the ballot for senator. So the most left wing candidate on my ballot for state offices is gonna be a blue dog Democrat. I mean really my options are to either move across the counrty for the 3rd time in the last 15 years or stay here and try and change poo poo. I'm lucky enough to be young white and male with a skillset that can get me work in an industry that will pay a decent wage with little trouble so it's probably gonna be the former, but what are people less fortunate than I am supposed to do? e: I really wish liberals would stop blaming the Kochs for systemic issues, if it wasn't them, it'd be someone else. This isn't a problem that is going to be solved by creating boogeymen that we burn in effigy.
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Jun 19, 2015 01:14
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rscott posted:3rd party candidates have a pretty difficult time getting on the ballot in Kansas, last year for example only the libertarian party got a candidate on the ballot for senator. So the most left wing candidate on my ballot for state offices is gonna be a blue dog Democrat. "Changing poo poo" is not an option and it's comical that you'd even bring it up. I don't know what you're supposed to do, get the hell out ASAP would be my advice. Go somewhere that isn't a conservative shithole this time (really, you moved to KANSAS for a better life!?) There's nothing I or you can do for people less fortunate. Much like starving African children, you can donate to a few charities if it helps and be "politically active" but we both know that doesn't accomplish poo poo for the people on the ground. You need power to enact change and the reality of the situation is that we(thread readers/posters) have very little to none. Also, stop voting for Democrats. Even if it's the "better option", following the road of "lesser of two evils" just leads to evil, might as well not be complacent if we're going there anyways.
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Jun 19, 2015 01:19
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down with slavery posted:I don't know what you're supposed to do, get the hell out ASAP would be my advice "gently caress you and your ancestral homestead! Get out!" he said. This is the same analysis that some here apply to the Palestinians. In a free country we ought to be slightly more optimistic. Kansas is not some irradiated hellscape, and anyway, under our current constitution, segregating all liberals to liberal states and all conservatives to conservative states will drat us irreparably (because that means conservatives will win forever). California doesn't need more liberals, it's Kansas that needs more liberals, and demanding the evacuation of the ones already there does not help matters.
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Jun 19, 2015 01:39
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When you're living in Flint you take the first thing that gets you out of town, which is kinda my point. You don't get a guarantee that the place you choose isn't going to descend into a tea party poo poo hole because people can't deal with a black president, or something else. e I'm not a loving liberal
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Jun 19, 2015 01:40
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down with slavery posted:Also, stop voting for Democrats. Even if it's the "better option", following the road of "lesser of two evils" just leads to evil, might as well not be complacent if we're going there anyways. Yes clearly, Kansas' problems were caused by too many people voting for Democrats. Yep. If only people hadn't elected Kathleen Sebelius, none of this would have happened.
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Jun 19, 2015 02:02
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Here's a good article on why non-wealthy North Carolinians didn't get a tax cut really. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article12938894.html Basically, they went to a flat tax that is 0.2% lower than the previous lowest bracket, but eliminated the Earned Income Tax credit as well as a collection of other tax credits that mainly benefit the poor. quote:The old tax plan in effect for the 2013 tax year and prior years had three income tax rates for individual taxpayers – 6 percent, 7 percent and 7.75 percent – depending on income.
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Jun 19, 2015 02:03
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rscott posted:e: I really wish liberals would stop blaming the Kochs for systemic issues, if it wasn't them, it'd be someone else. This isn't a problem that is going to be solved by creating boogeymen that we burn in effigy. Them and anyone in their bracket, its just so obvious in Kansas. They aren't a boogeyman, they're the man, along with anyone else that can justify keeping their dragon horde for their themselves. Keep trying to defend someone from an attack on their wealth. Please, show us how much you can be on their side.
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Jun 19, 2015 03:40
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BlueBlazer posted:Them and anyone in their bracket, its just so obvious in Kansas. They aren't a boogeyman, they're the man, along with anyone else that can justify keeping their dragon horde for their themselves. What the gently caress are you talking about, I'm not defending the Koch brothers, I'm saying that concentrating on them solely means liberals can avoid critiques of the capitalist mode of production you moron
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Jun 19, 2015 03:52
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rscott posted:What the gently caress are you talking about, I'm not defending the Koch brothers, I'm saying that concentrating on them solely means liberals can avoid critiques of the capitalist mode of production you moron. So liberals attacking the Koch brother is a deflection of the critique of the capitalist mode? I would say the exact opposite, that attacking the richest capitalist on earth, whose political aspiration include the spreading of free market capitalism ideology to its logical extent in line with their financial interests, is a healthy area of focus. If you wish to view it through your optics and their ownership of the means of production, then the Koch's as single entity are still a very valid subject of criticism and attack. "Librals" focusing on this is exactly the thing they should be doing to bring about systemic change. Eat the rich to save Kansas.
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Jun 19, 2015 04:14
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BlueBlazer posted:So liberals attacking the Koch brother is a deflection of the critique of the capitalist mode? I would say the exact opposite, that attacking the richest capitalist on earth, whose political aspiration include the spreading of free market capitalism ideology to its logical extent in line with their financial interests, is a healthy area of focus. No, if you single out one person, corporation or group as the cause of the problems, be it in Kansas or anywhere else you are implicitly blaming them for the problem and not the system which is the ultimate cause. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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Jun 19, 2015 04:21
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rscott posted:No, if you single out one person, corporation or group as the cause of the problems, be it in Kansas or anywhere else you are implicitly blaming them for the problem and not the system which is the ultimate cause. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Ok: "Don't hate the player, hate the game," is a tremendously idiotic thing to say. If you decide to play "the game" to win (e.g. looking out for you and yours and everyone else can starve and die) then you are a sociopath and you need to learn that other people deserve things, too. It's a crutch, a cop-out, a social Darwinism that's based on a rigged system and if you know the system is rigged; then you hate the players, too. When we single out the biggest players in "the game," (e.g. the koch brothers) we are not ignoring the systematic problems, we are pointing out the most obvious and heinous offenders who are causing those problems; so they may be publicly identified and hopefully reviled and eventually blocked from paying for their "FYGM" agenda.
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Jun 19, 2015 06:17
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rscott posted:e: I really wish liberals would stop blaming the Kochs for systemic issues, if it wasn't them, it'd be someone else. This isn't a problem that is going to be solved by creating boogeymen that we burn in effigy. The Kochs are causing and perpetuating many of the systemic issues you speak of. Last time I checked neither Warren Buffett nor Bill Gates were not funding conservative think thanks that spew poo poo like anti-global warming propaganda.
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Jun 19, 2015 06:36
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Wulfolme posted:So what exactly is it we can do to help Kansas? Let it burn. It will be for the greater good.
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Jun 19, 2015 06:38
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STATES RIGHTS means federal govt' cant really do anything about it, until next elections come along Kansas is pretty much hosed. Hopefully becoming the libertarian laughing stock of the union will result in a long and healthy life of democrat/independent status (although there's better odds of Brownback just winning again). It would be cool if we had some sort of electoral process that rewarded/assisted parties when they expand operations in states outside their presidency strategy. As it stands neither party want's to risk resources to contest solid states, which in turn means that said parties offerings are so incredibly worthless that nobody votes for them, which then means everybody just gets used to voting [sports team] because gently caress, at least they're actually campaigning.
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Jun 19, 2015 06:44
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rscott posted:What do you do when you move from Michigan, cuz the economy sucks, to Kansas (like i did )because there are jobs! And then 5 years later your fellow citizens elect bunch of morons? Move again? Yes. quote:Keep moving from state to state while neoliberals and neocons take over? Yes. quote:That's just playing their game. What game? Until I moved to Texas, I moved seven times in as many years, mostly for work, mostly fruitless. People do this. What game was I playing?
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Jun 19, 2015 07:08
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Neurolimal posted:STATES RIGHTS means federal govt' cant really do anything about it, until next elections come along Kansas is pretty much hosed. Hopefully becoming the libertarian laughing stock of the union will result in a long and healthy life of democrat/independent status (although there's better odds of Brownback just winning again). poo poo dude, it's way worse than that. My home state voted Democratic Party but were not represented. We ended up with 9 of 12 seats filled with REPUBLICANS, due to Gerrymandering: 
Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 07:09
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Dr. Faustus posted:Ok: "Don't hate the player, hate the game," is a tremendously idiotic thing to say. If you decide to play "the game" to win (e.g. looking out for you and yours and everyone else can starve and die) then you are a sociopath and you need to learn that other people deserve things, too. Oh.... enraged_camel posted:Let it burn. It will be for the greater good. down with slavery posted:"Changing poo poo" is not an option and it's comical that you'd even bring it up. I don't know what you're supposed to do, get the hell out ASAP would be my advice. Go somewhere that isn't a conservative shithole this time (really, you moved to KANSAS for a better life!?) There's nothing I or you can do for people less fortunate. Much like starving African children, you can donate to a few charities if it helps and be "politically active" but we both know that doesn't accomplish poo poo for the people on the ground. BlueBlazer posted:I'm getting some civil war vibes from this thread. We let the slave owners survive the first civil war , maybe we don't let them survive this time. SlipUp posted:You can't take away their agency to make that mistake. Let them make it. Should we feel guilty for not dumping out their democratically elected officials against their will? Are they going to like us all the better for us telling them we're doing it for their kids? The lovely experiment must die. We aren't conducting it, only observing it. ...Kay. "I agree."
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Jun 19, 2015 07:13
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Why are you responding to my post with all those other peoples' words? Am I endorsing those words?
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Jun 19, 2015 07:17
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No, I think in dipping a toe in HOW-DARE-YOU-SIR! SIR!! finger-wagging and whipping out the highfalutin Sociopath label (people who care for people in their ingroup at the expense of the outgroup aren't sociopaths  ) you inadvertently pathologized a segment of the thread which I'm sure just misspoke in jest repeatedly and in the same ways. That's very funny, especially to people who know what sociopathy means. enraged_camel posted:The Kochs are causing and perpetuating many of the systemic issues you speak of. Last time I checked neither Warren Buffett nor Bill Gates were not funding conservative think thanks that spew poo poo like anti-global warming propaganda. This year the economy will grow, and 90% of the gain will be realized as revenue for the Gates', the Buffets' and the Kochs' alike. Adjusted for inflation most of the rest of the country will gain fuckall. The Gates', the Buffets', and the Kochs' will use this disproportionate share of revenue to fund their own respective think tanks to fuel policy opinions with which they agree, and which may or may not disagree with each other. Politicians will be compelled to short-sighted policies they don't understand, and if a hole rends the earth and swallows the Kochs in a sulfurous fume this will continue to happen. If people demonstrate peacably all across the country for this to stop happening, this will continue to happen. Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 07:26
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Willie Tomg posted:This year the economy will grow, and 90% of the gain will be realized as revenue for the Gates', the Buffets' and the Kochs' alike. Adjusted for inflation most of the rest of the country will gain fuckall. The Gates', the Buffets', and the Kochs' will use this disproportionate share of revenue to fund their own respective think tanks to fuel policy opinions with which they agree, and which may or may not disagree with each other. Politicians will be compelled to short-sighted policies they don't understand, and if a hole rends the earth and swallows the Kochs in a sulfurous fume this will continue to happen. purl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street]If people demonstrate peacably all across the country for this to stop happening[/url], this will continue to happen. Just curious. Willie Tomg posted:No, I think in dipping a toe in HOW-DARE-YOU-SIR! SIR!! finger-wagging and whipping out the highfalutin Sociopath label (people who care for people in their ingroup at the expense of the outgroup aren't sociopaths Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 07:35
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Dr. Faustus posted:Do you have any predictions on how much or this year's economy's growth will be negated by floods, droughts, 300-mile long super thunderstorm cells that level entire towns, huge oil-spills and coal ash leaks, or wildfires? Or pipeline leaks? Or train derailments leading to huge explosions? Or refinery accidents? Or aquifer depletion? Whether I do or don't, in either case we can rest sure if we tore open the Koch brothers and supped on their steaming sweetmeats as they roasted over the flames of Kansas burning as it justly deserves, those things would never happen again, as they never happened before that quivering brace of Goebbels blighted this fine land. I'm, uh *fogs nails, buffs lapel* I'm a pretty liberal guy, you could say.
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Jun 19, 2015 07:52
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Willie Tomg posted:in either case we can rest sure if we tore open the Koch brothers and supped on their steaming sweetmeats as they roasted over the flames of Kansas burning as it justly deserves, those things would never happen again,
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Jun 19, 2015 07:57
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