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SirPhoebos posted:Good-bye Chris, and thanks for being a part of this strange journey. It's left rather ambiguous but impression that I have is yes they do not die of age.
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Jun 11, 2015 16:04
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SirPhoebos posted:Good-bye Chris, and thanks for being a part of this strange journey. Tolkien never said anything either way. Shagrat and Gorbag have some suggestive dialogue that may indicate that they remember the Last Alliance, but that's about it. Against this, we have the significantly different physiology of orcs (on par with hobbits for height, nobody ever confuses them with elves or men) which casts some doubt on their overall similarity to elves. Goblin means orc. It's what Tolkien used in his early writings as a name for orcs, and he abandoned it (along with calling Noldor "Gnomes and Valinor "Faerie") around the time he wrote The Hobbit. A few instances are used in LOTR, where it appears to be a slang term. Bear in mind that most societies in Middle-Earth are literate, and the fall of Gondolin would be remembered in the same way that the Israelite siege of Jericho is today. So Orcs (especially if the Great Goblin is a Maia as has been speculated) remembering the weapons of Turgon and Ecthelion and so on isn't that unbelievable.
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Jun 11, 2015 17:02
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Effectronica posted:Tolkien never said anything either way. Shagrat and Gorbag have some suggestive dialogue that may indicate that they remember the Last Alliance, but that's about it. There's that and the fact that the Goblin King (who may have in fact been a Maia in disguise in which case proves nothing) knows "Biter and Beater" as he calls them by looks alone. I take it to mean that the Orcs are as they were physiologically - elves. Foolish to do so but I also take the absence of evidence that orcs die of old age as a sign as well.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:19
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Where does this Goblin King as a Maia idea come from?
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Jun 11, 2015 21:22
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e;fb What evidence is there that the Goblin King was more than just a really swole goblin/orc?
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Jun 11, 2015 21:25
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SirPhoebos posted:e;fb I'll have to go back and try and find where I read it but I read that he may have been a Boldog/lesser Maia (see: not a Balrog or an Istari obviously) Edit: found "in some published letters from the last years of Tolkien it's revealed that he thought that some Maiar had perhaps taken the form of Orcs too. He then speculates that the Great Goblin might have been a Boldog too." here: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=24390&sid=f1a82d3ebc59e0fb5f7f8ef80fdca3bb&view=print So apparently it's alluded to in JRR's letters. Thunder Moose fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 21:32
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The "orcs used to be elves" angle is also somewhat speculation too isn't it? Like, Tolkien never really decided and left it as a guess in his works as well
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Jun 12, 2015 14:29
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The Sil is pretty explicit that Orcs are corrupted elves. What he never decided on was if the Orcs were irredeemably evil. I seem to recall he didn't like that idea later in life; an irredeemably evil being.
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Jun 12, 2015 14:57
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Silmarillion is not explicit about it. It is speculation in that source.
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Jun 12, 2015 15:04
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One of the neat parts of re-reading The Hobbit is seeing the germination of ideas that would come to fruition in LOTR. One that I'm curious about is naturally The Ring itself. Tolkein wrote that 'not even The Master who ruled over them new how Gollum found it.' I had always been under the impression that Tolkein came up with the background of the Rings of Power after the Hobbit was published, but it seems that even then he had some parts of the story formed already.
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Jun 12, 2015 15:25
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SirPhoebos posted:One of the neat parts of re-reading The Hobbit is seeing the germination of ideas that would come to fruition in LOTR. One that I'm curious about is naturally The Ring itself. Tolkein wrote that 'not even The Master who ruled over them new how Gollum found it.' I had always been under the impression that Tolkein came up with the background of the Rings of Power after the Hobbit was published, but it seems that even then he had some parts of the story formed already. Keep in mind that Tolkien rewrote and altered parts of The Hobbit to fit in with LoTR. Unless you're reading a first edition or something, that could be part of those changes.
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Jun 12, 2015 15:51
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The Belgian posted:Keep in mind that Tolkien rewrote and altered parts of The Hobbit to fit in with LoTR. Unless you're reading a first edition or something, that could be part of those changes. Yeah exactly. the Hobbit was (relatively) heavily retconned.
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Jun 12, 2015 15:52
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The Belgian posted:Keep in mind that Tolkien rewrote and altered parts of The Hobbit to fit in with LoTR. Unless you're reading a first edition or something, that could be part of those changes. euphronius posted:Yeah exactly. the Hobbit was (relatively) heavily retconned. I didn't know there was that much ret-conning. Where can I find an original version of The Hobbit?
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Jun 12, 2015 17:41
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euphronius posted:Silmarillion is not explicit about it. It is speculation in that source. Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor posted:
So not explicit, but there really isn't any where else they could have come from. No one was there in Utumno but everyoe believes that is where the Orcs came from because Melkor wasn't capable of makeing them from scratch.
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Jun 12, 2015 18:21
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SirPhoebos posted:I didn't know there was that much ret-conning. Where can I find an original version of The Hobbit? (Example: This copy, 1st UK edition, is priced at 7800 Euro. Aha, there's a 1st US edition from 1938 for just 1700 Euro.)
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Jun 12, 2015 20:30
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There's also renaming gnomes to elves at least.
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Jun 12, 2015 20:46
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HIJK posted:Christopher Lee has died: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11666316/christopher-lee-dies-live.html Christopher Lee's commanding voice will continue to haunt us for generations to come even after death. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qE5FSG6K0Y RIP. 
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Jun 14, 2015 09:35
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The Annotated Hobbit has the original Riddles in the Dark scene & makes explicit Tolkeins's changes. It also has the Quest of Erebor in an appendix.
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Jun 15, 2015 18:44
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I'm about 2/3rds through the Hobbit, and I got to say I'm glad that I didn't do my re-read before seeing the new movies. It would have ruined whatever enjoyment I had when I watched them in theaters.
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Jun 18, 2015 19:36
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It's a hella good book, my dad isn't even into reading very much and he's adored it ever since he was a little kid.
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Jun 19, 2015 04:52
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SHISHKABOB posted:It's a hella good book, my dad isn't even into reading very much and he's adored it ever since he was a little kid. Yup.
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Jun 19, 2015 10:14
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sunday at work posted:So not explicit, but there really isn't any where else they could have come from. No one was there in Utumno but everyoe believes that is where the Orcs came from because Melkor wasn't capable of makeing them from scratch. There is no consistent answer in his works. For trolls or dragons either. If you want to believe orcs are elves that's fine, but it has nasty afterlife issues. He could make them from scratch but he'd need to give them a part of his life, rather than their own life. Thats what I think works best. Note that Morgoth enslaved a huge portion of the Noldor and Sindar in Beleriand and they did not turn into orcs.
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Jun 19, 2015 12:29
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The orcs could also be the offspring of lesser maiar.
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Jun 19, 2015 12:31
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Can Maiar reproduce? I thought that was restricted to elves, men, dwarfs, animals and assorted wildlife. I mean, okay, there was Melian but she needed an elf for that and I don't recall any other relationships like that. edit: Please don't bring up fanfiction that proves me wrong. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 15:45
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Off the top of my head I can't think of any Maia children.
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Jun 19, 2015 15:58
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Melian had Luthien with her elf husband. Maiar can reproduce if they choose.
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Jun 19, 2015 16:16
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Eönwë was originally supposed to be the son of Manwë, but it seems Tolkien intentionally set about eliminating all references to Valar and Maiar directly reproducing sometime after he did his early work.
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Jun 19, 2015 16:18
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I've come up with a  theory about the Arkenstone. It can't be a Simaril since it is explicitly described as being cut, and yet it shares a lot of properties of a Simaril. But the Simarillion says that the Simarils were alive. If they're alive, then perhaps they can reproduce, and the Arkenstone is a descendant of the Simaril lost beneath the earth, not as perfect as what was created in Valinor but still bearing many of its properties.
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Jun 19, 2015 16:49
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Nice Steven Universe fanfiction. 
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Jun 19, 2015 16:57
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Data Graham posted:Nice Steven Universe fanfiction. I don't watch Steven Universe, so I have no clue what you're talking about.
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Jun 19, 2015 17:23
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HIJK posted:Melian had Luthien with her elf husband. Maiar can reproduce if they choose. It could just be that she didn't want to stay in Middle-Earth any more after her husband was murdered of course.
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Jun 19, 2015 19:45
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Runcible Cat posted:I got the impression that they'd need a mortal spouse - Melian seems to be sort of... tied to physicality? by Thingol - as soon as he dies she can't maintain the Girdle any more and bogs off back to Valinor. It doesn't really matter, does it? It's still proof that the Maiar can reproduce. Luthien didn't just appear out of thin air.
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Jun 19, 2015 20:33
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I think the point is that reproduction was only a trait of Ilúvatar's children (ie what's been sung about) so Morgoth would have to have snatched an elf and a Maia to start making orcs in the first place - and from there you're back to the corrupted elves story, except with half the pointy ears. Besides, IIRC children of mixed races are supposed to be special - you only get three mixed marriages between elves and men and all shaped the world in a big way. While I like the idea of orcs with huge destinies running around and getting their heads chopped off before they can achieve the great things they're foretold to do, it's stressed that interracial - anything, really - is pretty drat rare. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 20:50
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Luthien is also not a Maia and is never referenced as half-Maia as other people are with mixed ancestry. So I think it's more of her mom's un-maianess that allowed it. Like how Arwen gives up her elfness.
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Jun 19, 2015 21:24
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Maiar and Valar don't normally reproduce because they don't hold on to physical bodies for long enough. Melian incarnated herself for long enough to do so, and few other Maiar do (Sauron doesn't until after the Akallabeth, possibly, the Istari might, but they are incarnated as elderly for that reason, and Balrog bodies are probably not capable of intercourse).
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Jun 19, 2015 21:50
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Effectronica posted:Maiar and Valar don't normally reproduce because they don't hold on to physical bodies for long enough. Melian incarnated herself for long enough to do so, and few other Maiar do (Sauron doesn't until after the Akallabeth, possibly, the Istari might, but they are incarnated as elderly for that reason, and Balrog bodies are probably not capable of intercourse). Just don't Google that, and everything will be fine.
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Jun 19, 2015 22:06
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SirPhoebos posted:I've come up with a
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Jun 19, 2015 22:49
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SHISHKABOB posted:Luthien is also not a Maia and is never referenced as half-Maia as other people are with mixed ancestry. So I think it's more of her mom's un-maianess that allowed it. Like how Arwen gives up her elfness. The silmarillion constantly refers to Luthien and offspring as having the blood line of the maiar.
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Jun 19, 2015 23:00
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I just feread the Silmarillion on the beach. It's really tight how JRrt fits everything together in the First Age. The first version of Turambar is just in some forest but the Silmarillion version has all types of additional nuance due to its placement in the War of the Jewels. The Book of Lost Tales version is more interesting though imho for all of the additional dialog from Glauurung who is just a master level troll. Further the Silmarillion version of the fall of Gondolin is disgraceful.
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Jun 19, 2015 23:04
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euphronius posted:The silmarillion constantly refers to Luthien and offspring as having the blood line of the maiar. Really need to reread Sil. edit: I also seem to remember that Luthien didn't give up her elvish ancestry - she talked Mandos into giving her and Beren a second life and I think they didn't age or anything. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jun 19, 2015 |
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Jun 19, 2015 23:11
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