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"You, you passed the man on the cart. And YOU, you helped the child out of the well... But the first guy was polite about it and the second guy was a REAL rear end in a top hat about it, so guess how that rates." I suppose if you wanted to taunt metagamers, you could have A cat chasing a wounded canary
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Jun 9, 2015 16:26
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I'm a big fan of the judge just endlessly criticises everything the players have done, if they stop to help the cart, it shows a lack of concern for the big picture, if they don't help a cat out a tree they are heartless monsters unconcerned with the problems of their lessers, if they don't give a beggar water they are selfish, if they do, they are ignoring the importance of their quest on trivial matters etc. And the real lesson is to stand up against the judge for what they believe in, and that the truly noble of spirit should be assured and confident in the strength of their goals and convictions.
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Jun 10, 2015 02:09
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Thanks to everyone for all the responses thus far. It's helping me look at the puzzle from angles I hadn't considered yet. I'll keep checking in, so if anyone else has any ideas, keep posting! As to some specific posts: Khizan posted:Ideally you'd screw them either way. I can respect a classic DM response  Section Z posted:...I suppose if you wanted to taunt metagamers, you could have A cat chasing a wounded canary As long as it's a yellow canary, this is golden  I don't know if any of them have read the Dragonlance books that this features in; though enough may have read the Bahamut Wiki that they know this story either way, which would make it fun. Poison Mushroom posted:Having either helping or not helping shouldn't be favored. Different benefits and complications, sure. Or using it as context to evaluate their motivations, sure. But a big picture/help everyone dilemma shouldn't have a binary right or wrong answer. Prison Warden posted:I'm a big fan of the judge just endlessly criticises everything the players have done, if they stop to help the cart, it shows a lack of concern for the big picture, if they don't help a cat out a tree they are heartless monsters unconcerned with the problems of their lessers, if they don't give a beggar water they are selfish, if they do, they are ignoring the importance of their quest on trivial matters etc. And the real lesson is to stand up against the judge for what they believe in, and that the truly noble of spirit should be assured and confident in the strength of their goals and convictions. This is a great idea, with one caveat. The trick will be making it feel like a defense they give would matter, rather than the "tests failed" result being a DM railroad. It'll probably be OK, since my players know I pretty much never put them on rails of any kind, but I'll have to be delicate. Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jun 10, 2015 |
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Jun 10, 2015 15:31
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The best advice I can give is to have a plan ready for how the plot progresses if the players fail the test. Ideally find some way for the players to discover that there's another, tougher way too. That way, their passing the test isn't a foregone conclusion and the test actually has some tension to it.
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Jun 12, 2015 17:25
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So I'm converting Planescape to 4e for a let's play/podcast I'm running of Infinite Staircase/Modron March/A few others. I wanted to handle planar alterations to spells in a slightly more subtle way then the 2e original setting, but still be noticeable. Doing things like maxing certain spell's damage on some planes, or altering it's type. The chapter my players are currently about to engage in takes place on a lawful plane adjacent to Mechanus (LN) so I was thinking of having all magic attack and damage rolls be rolled twice and averaged. (This game is done on roll20, so this will just be a macro I implement.) Is this to subtle?
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Jun 14, 2015 18:26
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Moriatti posted:So I'm converting Planescape to 4e for a let's play/podcast I'm running of Infinite Staircase/Modron March/A few others.
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Jun 14, 2015 20:20
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Poison Mushroom posted:Not at all. As long as it's a temporary thing, that sounds pretty rad. If you don't want to break the critical hit builds, make a 20 still count as long as the other die is 11+. That will preserve the 1/20 crit chance. Do the same for extended crit range stuff, too, and probably the opposite (1s auto miss if the other die is 10 or lower). This would not actually preserve the crit chance exactly, as the probability of a crit becomes P(first die=20, second die above 10)+P(first die above ten, second die =20)-P(both dies at 20) which is 0.0475, but I would almost consider that a feature, since it makes statistically unusual events more unusual. Honestly, I think that just making all non-maximized damage to be it's avarage is better, as it doesn't muck up the combat math, and won't penalize crit builds at all. And simply not touch the attack rolls. MatteusTheCorrupt fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jun 14, 2015 |
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Jun 14, 2015 20:41
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If you want to maintain the same power-level while providing a fun-feeling and interesting die-trick mechanic, just make all powers that match the current planar attunement Brutal-1. It increases the minimum damage by 1 point per die, but only increases the average damage by 0.5 points per die and does not affect the maximum damage. It should result in your players having less truly-bad encounters but prevents them from face-rolling any they wouldn't have already. Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Jun 15, 2015 |
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Jun 15, 2015 17:46
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I don't know if you guys can help me but I am preparing my first session (The Slaying Stone), that I'll run tomorrow and I can't get masterplan to work. I have the CompendiumImport Plugin installed (1.1.1) and I can start it. I can choose "The Slaying Stone" as a source and I can see the various creatues. BUT, I can't import them to anything. The "Add to" button is grey and the dropdownlist is empty. What do I add creatures to? I have a campaign, I have a combat encounter, still the list stays empty.
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Jun 20, 2015 14:18
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I don't know if it's that exact problem, but Masterplan got into hot water in a big way about the ability to copy copyrighted materials, i.e. transfer libraries and copy from the compendium. Could be they had to remove that functionality specifically. Only comfort I can offer is that entering creatures into libraries manually is super quick. Just do only the ones you need immediately and you'll be done before you know it. On the other hand, you're going to need to create a new library in the first place - go to Tools > Libraries, create a new library there, and see if that works but I strongly suspect you'll have to do it by hand anyway.
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Jun 20, 2015 14:27
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Hi guys. I last played 4th edition regularly uhhhh, four or five years ago? I canceled my D&D Insider subscription around the time they killed the offline client (which let me build in house rules) in favor of the web client (which didn't). But now, my friend has talked me into running a game for him and his daughter and a couple of my buddies. Probably going to be using Roll20 for live online play, plus the occasional in-person game session. I never bought Essentials, but otherwise I have a lot of the 4th edition stuff: PHB1-3, DMG 1-2, the five Power books, MM 1-2. What is the state of the art in terms of GM's tools for running non-Essentials D&D 4E? Also is there a handy single reference for the good houserules to use? I'm thinking about the free feat (to account for what is otherwise the feat tax at every x levels), I vaguely remember something about implements/focus items and their inherent bonuses, etc. Also is there a good set of character and GM software tools to parallel what we had with the offline clients? Does D&D Insider provide any value for a 4e player now? Did anyone ever come up with a way to make skill challenges work? e. I found the install folder on my old hard drive that has Character Builder and Adventure Tools. Is there a way to make these work? They're not properly installed, and they don't run correctly when I try to start them. e2 It occurred to me to read the OP, derp. Last updated over a year ago... is the info there still reasonably correct? Seems to recommend Insider. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Jun 20, 2015 |
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Jun 20, 2015 19:24
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I like insider because I can just hand out a username+password to my less tech savvy friends and they can make a dude that is then on the cloud. However, the homebrew additions to the offline builder are better/more powerful. As for house rules, I made this for a friend running 4e, it also has general GM advice. Also, I'd recommend everyone writing their powers in macros. It makes life much better.
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Jun 20, 2015 19:53
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I think Masterplan is still the gold standard, although if you're using Roll20 you won't need/can't use a large part of it, the combat tracker. Still useful to keep campaign notes, set up encounters and so on. The Monster Manuals revealed a few design flaws over the years. MM3 featured reworked math and enemy designs, and Essentials came up with the Monster Vault, which contains most of the iconic D&D monsters you'd find in MM1 and 2 redone after the new design guidelines. I strongly recommend tracking a copy down, the critters in there work fine with non-Essentials characters (usually better than MM ones). Equally useful is the Rules Compendium, which has all the basic rules for the game with errata worked in, although if you have the DMGs that's probably fine. Common houserules are: one free expertise feat, free Improved Defenses (+2 to Fort/Ref/Will in heroic, +3 paragon, +4 epic), and inherent bonuses - those are from DMG2 and make it so you don't need new magic items every few levels just to keep up with the expected attack/defense bonuses. A lot of folks give out free Melee Training as well. If you can get the offline Character Builder to run, you can even update it (inofficially) with all the new material that's come out since then, including Essentials... is the thread we had for that even still around?
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Jun 20, 2015 19:53
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Leperflesh posted:Did anyone ever come up with a way to make skill challenges work? Drop the "X successes before Y failures" model and use "X rolls to proceed, failures introduce some kind of complication." If the party blows their Thievery checks to open the vizier's vault, they get it open just in time for some guards to round the corner. Or they get it open and it's empty except for a note that says "DEAR PCS - YOU ARE DUMB AND SMELL BAD xoxo VILLAIN FROM A PREVIOUS ENCOUNTER"
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Jun 20, 2015 20:34
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Pretty much that, yeah. Skill challenges are fine in terms of their XP value, but the model doesn't work that well. Vigorous application of fail forward principles make them fine. Also, get the CBLoader if it's still available.
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Jun 20, 2015 23:19
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I translated MM3 on a business card and it's follow-up HP adjustment into a single handy chart: And then you can use these links (1) and (2) for creating damage expressions for the monsters' abilities. For general skill checks, refer to this errata:  link to original WOTC article Skill challenges: I wrote for a friend as I was trying to explain, but I haven't been playing so long as to claim that I have it right, and this is just my take quote:The problem with how it's usually presented and then subsequently used is that the DM presents a single obstacle, then asks the group to come up with an appropriate skill to get past it.
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Jun 21, 2015 00:15
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Also, don't use set skills for *ANYTHING* at all. Set up a problem, and be open to any way the players might come up with to solve it, rather than saying 'this scene has them convincing the king to do a thing so they will need a diplomacy or bluff check' - maybe they can be convincing to the king by citing Historical precedent, or Arcanely loving with his mind, or Athletically arm wrestling him to prove their prowess etc etc etc. If they just say 'I wanna roll $skill' feel free to say yes, but ask them to describe what's actually going on with the characters. Similarly, if they come up with an elaborate plan without an obvious skill to back it up (typically, things like loving with and/or understanding architecture are poorly handled in 4e) feel free to come up with a skill that vaguely fits and the relevant character(s) have a chance to succeed at. But most importantly, don't hinge the plot on success; the plot should happen anyway, but how well or badly it happens for the PCs is what they're rolling for. Failing the check should never just mean that nothing happens. Basically, don't be Mike Mearls in the early 5e playtests, one of which almost literally opened with him saying 'make a WIS check' and everyone making and failing said check, and him just saying '...make another WIS check' and this repeating until someone finally succeeded in the check to activate the plot.
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Jun 21, 2015 00:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:I translated MM3 on a business card and it's follow-up HP adjustment into a single handy chart:  thanks for this, makes my life much easier. Elites you add 25% more Hp and Solo 50% right?
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Jun 21, 2015 01:01
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frajaq posted:
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Jun 21, 2015 01:14
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thespaceinvader posted:Pretty much that, yeah. Skill challenges are fine in terms of their XP value, but the model doesn't work that well. Vigorous application of fail forward principles make them fine. Does anyone even use XP any more? Just level up once you're tired of either the selection of monsters at your current level or the powers your party have. I recommend every couple of sessions - a sixty session campaign is plenty.
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Jun 21, 2015 01:34
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Gort posted:Does anyone even use XP any more?
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Jun 21, 2015 01:39
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Yeah, thirteen fights a level would be fine if those fights were what, seven minutes each? That ain't happening in 4e.
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Jun 21, 2015 01:48
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Honestly, I think thirteen unique enemies (that is, counting all minions of a certain type as 'one') a level is kind of pushing it, much less full fights.
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Jun 21, 2015 01:57
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Gort posted:Does anyone even use XP any more? Just level up once you're tired of either the selection of monsters at your current level or the powers your party have. I recommend every couple of sessions - a sixty session campaign is plenty. This is a good point actually - don't use XP for anything other than encounter design; level the PCs, as a group, at story-appropriate moments or every third session whichever is the shorter. Use fewer sessions/level if they're infrequent or people are getting bored, more if they're very frequent or people are enjoying things as they are.
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Jun 21, 2015 02:04
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At the same time, 4e kind of bogs down and breaks apart at epic levels, so don't rush too much. I help our GM plan our encounters so we talk a lot about keeping combat fresh and he's told me we're probably not going to go far into epic because of how the game gets by then. We do something like 4-6 fights each level (divided into 2 adventuring days) and while the latter half usually has me wishing we'd just level up already, I kind of agree with him. Too bad I'm playing a critfisher who does subpar striker damage until epic. 
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Jun 21, 2015 04:38
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Thanks for all the help, guys. I found out about the CBLoader thing and I now have that working with the last updates for it, so that's great. For XP, I do hand out XPs per encounter, because that's fun and gives players a sense of progress... but I also hand out story XP, and it's usually much more than the encounter stuff. I try to pace it so that "A campaign" divides up not into "adventures" (which could be long or short and aren't often well-defined) but rather "Chapters", where the characters would level up every chapter. A chapter, then, corresponds to a narrative structure rather than a specific set of goals or accomplishments; each chapter should represent a set of connected scenes, a turning point in the story where the overarching situation has changed, a shift in the group's view of the story, or something like that. The specifics depend a lot on what kind of story your group is telling. When I was running my Primals PbP a few years ago, the game was about a coming-of-age story; also about exploration and discovery; also about uncovering a spiritual crisis slowly taking place within the characters' tribe; also about an unfolding of their previously-limited cultural perspective. So, a "chapter" was represented by things like: the characters' discovery that they were Out Of Their Comfort Zone in a big way; the point where they negotiated their way past first contact with outsiders; a pivotal scene when they contacted a major spirit (the raven spirit, as in, the demigod of all ravens) and were given a task; A fight where the characters were in very serious peril (e.g, it was possible to have one or more die during the encounter); and so on. So, little tokens of progress, cheevos if you will, can be a good thing... and since not every encounter or scene is going to involve loot, getting a few XPs is a nice always-there cheevo to collect. Whereas leveling is going to happen at a narratively appropriate pace, but also not just randomly after some encounter where you happened to cross the levelup threshold. It should "make sense" in the context of the story that the characters have discovered newfound power and ability, but that doesn't always have to mean they've had a week of downtime in some town in which to train and do exercises. The thirteen fights thing is only relevant if you don't do story XP. It's been years since I carefully read the 4e DMG but I'm pretty sure it suggests story XP right there in the book.
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Jun 21, 2015 07:15
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Leperflesh posted:The thirteen fights thing is only relevant if you don't do story XP. It's been years since I carefully read the 4e DMG but I'm pretty sure it suggests story XP right there in the book. Yup, that's right. In fact, every edition of D&D has suggested doling out XP for "story", or "milestones" or "plot" or "roleplaying", or even just showing up at a session and it's never expected that you'd earn XP purely through combat encounters. They just have to keep using the numerical XP thing for the purposes of organized play, modules and encounter building.
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Jun 21, 2015 07:23
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It's supposed to be thirteen encounters with the game assuming you're going to do three per session, so basically a level every four sessions, IIRC. That's still off by quite a bit compared to the rate at which I hand out levels.
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Jun 21, 2015 09:38
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GimmickMan posted:At the same time, 4e kind of bogs down and breaks apart at epic levels, so don't rush too much. I help our GM plan our encounters so we talk a lot about keeping combat fresh and he's told me we're probably not going to go far into epic because of how the game gets by then. We do something like 4-6 fights each level (divided into 2 adventuring days) and while the latter half usually has me wishing we'd just level up already, I kind of agree with him. Yeah, the sweet spot is definitely 11-16 in 4e. Not to say it's bad outside that range, but it's best inside it.
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Jun 21, 2015 10:29
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I posted about selling my 4e collection several months ago in this thread and I've finally put up a thread on SA mart. You can find it here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3727322 if anyone is interested in filling out their collection with some physical books.
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Jun 22, 2015 23:10
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Yo I always thought one same-level encounter gave you exactly 1/10 of the experience needed to gain a level. What am I missing about this 13 thing?
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Jun 24, 2015 19:15
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My Lovely Horse posted:Yo I always thought one same-level encounter gave you exactly 1/10 of the experience needed to gain a level. What am I missing about this 13 thing? I'm seeing the same thing: 1000 XP to get to level 2 100 XP for a Standard level 1 monster 8000 XP to get to level 14 (47 000 XP - 37 000 XP) 800 XP for a Standard level 13 monster
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Jun 24, 2015 19:50
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An 'encounter' doesn't have to be a fight with same level enemies. You might have some under or over budget fights, you might award experience for the 'encounter' with the guy who sent you out on your current quest, or when you bargained with that noble to let you explore the caves on their land.
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Jun 24, 2015 19:56
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My Lovely Horse posted:Yo I always thought one same-level encounter gave you exactly 1/10 of the experience needed to gain a level. What am I missing about this 13 thing? Nothing. Lemon's just wrong - 13.33 was the guideline for suggested encounters to level in 3e, not 4e. 4e takes 8 to 10 encounters - see "Encounter Mix," page 104 of the DMG.
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Jun 24, 2015 19:57
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Phew. Thought I'd been doing something incredibly wrong for the past 4-5 years. Although: Misandu posted:An 'encounter' doesn't have to be a fight with same level enemies. You might have some under or over budget fights, you might award experience for the 'encounter' with the guy who sent you out on your current quest, or when you bargained with that noble to let you explore the caves on their land.
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Jun 24, 2015 20:03
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So I looked at my bookshelf today and came to a weird realization that, apart from MME, I haven't cracked open a 4e book in maybe two years, despite running the game weekly. It's awesome, mind you, but a bit uncanny. Between Compendium and Character Builder, I'm pretty well covered...
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Jun 24, 2015 20:38
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Wow, just level up after the conclusion of each adventure or just every 2-3 sessions. You have to be a loving pedant to track xp now everyone levels at the same rate. No wonder so few games make it out of single digits.
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Jun 24, 2015 23:00
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starkebn posted:Wow, just level up after the conclusion of each adventure or just every 2-3 sessions. You have to be a loving pedant to track xp now everyone levels at the same rate. Tracking XP is a fun reward for playing specifically because it makes things numerically available and visible. Players like imagining how far they have to go and seeing their progress.
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Jun 24, 2015 23:15
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If play rewards were money, XP would be company scrip.
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Jun 24, 2015 23:49
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One of the players in our group is high-functioning ASD and loves tracking XP. The DM doles them out to all of us equally and we all level up at the same time on his schedule, but the player gets to have his fun and be the XP guy. Everybody's happy.
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Jun 25, 2015 06:17
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