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Atal Vataman posted:also, it points out that more ethnic norwegians than muslims believe that norway is an immoral nation (although the difference is within the margin of error).
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Jun 24, 2015 11:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Norwegians are fundamentalist across the board though, so that doesn't tell us much. Crazy nationalists too. Eh, our brand of civic/romantic/left-wing nationalism ain't that bad.
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Jun 24, 2015 12:17
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not so much left-wing nationalism as old-school liberal nationalism, which i have no idea how we've managed to keep around for so long e. the only moral nationalism etc
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Jun 24, 2015 12:21
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on that note, the nation state is on its way out, and the backlash against this is a, if not the primary driver in right-populist parties all across europe hth
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Jun 24, 2015 12:23
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Honestly wikipedia has droves of different terms for benevolent nationalism and they're all vague as gently caress. Norwegian nationalism certainly considers national identity as something important, but what nationalism does not?
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Jun 24, 2015 12:45
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V. Illych L. posted:on that note, the nation state is on its way out, and the backlash against this is a, if not the primary driver in right-populist parties all across europe hth I think you've hit the nail on the head. The nation state is on its way out... And now try to sell this idea to my countrymen, who despite living in these lands for thousands of years, have only enjoyed their own state for less than hundred years in total. For the past 800 years most of time we've been ruled by other great powers in the region: Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Russia. Do you think that Sweden and Denmark have any moral right do dictate to us how we should abandon the idea of a nation state when thanks to you guys we haven't had it for over a half a millennium? PS. No one is actually angry at any of those past great powers, apart from Russia, because it happened such a long time ago. But the point still stands. It's easy to deny others what you've had for a long time. If Sweden is tired of being a relatively homogenous nation state (which I don't believe is true if you look at the election results), it's your choice. Other countries make their own choices. PPS. You will not sell the idea of the end of the nation state to anyone in Eastern Europe, for the exact reasons I mentioned above.
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Jun 24, 2015 12:45
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it's not being sold here either, this is a big part of why the right-populists are getting so strong. nobody wants the nation-state to go away, but its demise is a sign of the times. institutions like the EU are the future, by all indications. the fact of the matter is that ethnic nationalism is no longer ideologically supportable in the current environment, and this dissonance is a Real Thing we will cling to them for a while, of course, and the trappings of nationality will stay around for a long while, but the nation-state as a positive, political project is ideologically dead. i will mourn its passing in the current context - what we're getting instead looks to be a bureaucratic and soulless shitheap - but it's a simple fact of our time
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Jun 24, 2015 12:50
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like, you're talking to a norwegian, we love our old-school radical nationalism. it's still not a functional ideology in 2015, let alone in 2025 or 2045
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Jun 24, 2015 12:51
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incidentally, this is also why modern nationalism is so very problematic - it's never more than a bad haircut away from outright fascism
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Jun 24, 2015 12:53
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I think the key issue is that the EU hasn't spent nearly enough of its effort at building a common european cultural identity. It has been schizoprehnic at best as shown by how its current attempts at quelling succession across the EU while simultaneously bolstering regional positions within its institutions. Some blame for this lies at the lisbon treaty but it is amazing how the union and the supra-nationional arms of the union can and will act against each other. 
MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 13:05
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Xoidanor posted:I think the key issue is that the EU hasn't spent nearly enough of its effort at building a common european cultural identity. It has been schizoprehnic at best as shown by how its current attempts at quelling succession across the EU while simultaneously bolstering regional positions within its institutions. Some blame for this lies at the lisbon treaty but it is amazing how the union and the supra-nationional arms of the union can and will act against each other. I don't see how they could build any kind of common European cultural identity without selling the idea that the union works for all (and there's no way that can ever be under capitalism). Why would I want to build any kind of community with the french (for example) if I believe they're flogging me, and also misogynist shitbags? It's similar to the situation facing our far-right loonies, except you would have actual proof that a powerful force is working against your interests. The only alternative is a nice big war, and then we're basically talking fascism again.
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Jun 24, 2015 13:44
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Biomute posted:They do not mention either, although you could extrapolate from how Muslims vote if you were so inclined. The only party we have that is clearly against those two things is KrF, who get 3.7% of Muslim votes. FrP pays both topics lip service now as they're a populist party, but were against gay marriage at the time of this study so that's another 2,4% there. Muslims overwhelmingly vote for socialist parties (90.9%) that support both enthusiastically, so even if they were against it personally, it clearly is not important enough to sway their voting habits. It might have to do with the fact said socialist parties are welcome to immigration and transfers of wealth? Cool! That's a nice way to get more voters!!!1 Edit: This reminds me http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/hbtq-anpassning-far-kritik--av-asylboende/ but even though I did read a translated version of it, no worry in the world, because I'm not a native Swedish speaker it is impossible I understood it right, because if I did after all or the translation was correct, I'd be rolling on the floor, laughing. Unless... that's actually a clever way to determine why some people really seek asylum  V. Illych L. posted:we will cling to them for a while, of course, and the trappings of nationality will stay around for a long while, but the nation-state as a positive, political project is ideologically dead. i will mourn its passing in the current context - what we're getting instead looks to be a bureaucratic and soulless shitheap - but it's a simple fact of our time Hope you're wrong, afraid you're right, esp. about the soulless shitheap 
Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 13:51
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Xoidanor posted:I think the key issue is that the EU hasn't spent nearly enough of its effort at building a common european cultural identity. It has been schizoprehnic at best as shown by how its current attempts at quelling succession across the EU while simultaneously bolstering regional positions within its institutions. Some blame for this lies at the lisbon treaty but it is amazing how the union and the supra-nationional arms of the union can and will act against each other. OhYeah posted:I think you've hit the nail on the head. The nation state is on its way out... I guess what I'm saying is that the whole "victims of ethnic cleansing, colonization, and subjugation" probably has more to do with the desire for a strong nation state than the age of your nation state.
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Jun 24, 2015 14:02
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Ligur posted:It might have to do with the fact said socialist parties are welcome to immigration and transfers of wealth? The percentage of S voters in Rosengård puts third world dictators to shame. Voter turnout is however not particularly good though, except in those cases when party members from S usher them into the voting booth. Ligur posted:This reminds me http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/hbtq-anpassning-far-kritik--av-asylboende/ but even though I did read a translated version of it, no worry in the world, because I'm not a native Swedish speaker it is impossible I understood it right, because if I did after all or the translation was correct, I'd be rolling on the floor, laughing. Unless... that's actually a clever way to determine why some people really seek asylum Welcome to Sweden, where it is assumed you are a non-enlightened Swede upon arrival, and once you get the proper education you will also be an hard-working Swede. Honestly though, the unintended view that immigrants are people that are less advanced and which should be cared for is a pretty racist view. But hey, this is Sweden, the country where anti-racists think it is a good idea to register ethnicity, religion and sexual preference in order to make sure no one is discriminated. Cause that have always been such a good idea in the past. Also, if you are a white man, you are by default always wrong. Incidentally, that would make all of the posters in this thread wrong.
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Jun 24, 2015 14:50
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Cardiac posted:But hey, this is Sweden, the country where anti-racists think it is a good idea to register ethnicity, religion and sexual preference in order to make sure no one is discriminated. Cause that have always been such a good idea in the past. Oh yeah I read about it. Wait. Wasn't it SVT, not some fringe group of lunatics who thought this was a good idea? Isn't it Luckily there are people who thought that racial profiling and skull measuring isn't maybe the way to go anyway.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:02
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V. Illych L. posted:it's not being sold here either, this is a big part of why the right-populists are getting so strong. V. Illych L. posted:like, you're talking to a norwegian, we love our old-school radical nationalism. it's still not a functional ideology in 2015, let alone in 2025 or 2045 V. Illych L. posted:incidentally, this is also why modern nationalism is so very problematic - it's never more than a bad haircut away from outright fascism Pretty much. Probably a result of increasing overall globalisation, international trade and cooperative treaties. I mean, there are several court systems that can be reasonably said to be pan-european at this point, and national court jurisdictional reach has never been longer.
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Jun 24, 2015 15:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I think you mean secession, though I don't think we're quite there yet. The issue isn't so much whether to be part of the EU, as to what the EU is. It'll get there eventually though if the current approach continues. Yes I know all of this, but this the gist of it: for the most part of the last 800 years, we have not been able to choose our own way, others have always chosen for us. quote:I guess what I'm saying is that the whole "victims of ethnic cleansing, colonization, and subjugation" probably has more to do with the desire for a strong nation state than the age of your nation state. Yes, that's a succinct way of expressing the core of the issue.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:31
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Unrelated: Saw this and immediately thought of Ligur for some reason.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:37
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Nice piece of fish posted:Unrelated: Saw this and immediately thought of Ligur for some reason. how mean
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Jun 24, 2015 16:39
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V. Illych L. posted:how mean 
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Jun 24, 2015 16:43
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Nice piece of fish posted:Unrelated: Saw this and immediately thought of Ligur for some reason. Ooh, I remember when I had a bug out bag. It was great being 18.
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Jun 24, 2015 17:42
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Nice piece of fish posted:Unrelated: Saw this and immediately thought of Ligur for some reason. This picture is awesome and so is Ligur. Troll: failed. 
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Jun 24, 2015 17:59
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OhYeah posted:Troll: failed. Well, it is a troll.
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Jun 24, 2015 18:06
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Cardiac posted:But hey, this is Sweden, the country where anti-racists think it is a good idea to register ethnicity, religion and sexual preference in order to make sure no one is discriminated. Cause that have always been such a good idea in the past. France doesn't report ethnicity and most of their prisoners are still Muslim.
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Jun 24, 2015 18:09
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Alhazred posted:Well, it is a troll. A finnish troll, to be exact. I thought it rather fitting. OhYeah posted:This picture is awesome and so is Ligur. What did the finn say to the estonian who was fellating him? "OhYeah!" I understand if my previous joke caused offense to certain people, and I'm sorry that whoever feels that way may have interpreted my joke to be offensive. Mistakes were made and nobody regrets this unfortunate incident more than me. Furthermore, anyone who feels Ligur is awesome can go gently caress themselves.
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Jun 24, 2015 18:24
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ligur isn't a troll, though he's a bona fide national-chauvinist reactionary
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Jun 24, 2015 18:25
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Nice piece of fish posted:
Moomin trolls are awesome though.
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Jun 24, 2015 18:32
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Alhazred posted:Moomin trolls are awesome though. Hell yeah they are.
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Jun 24, 2015 18:33
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goonin
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Jun 24, 2015 18:52
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Atal Vataman posted:goonin At least it isn't another CK2 derail CK2 derails own
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Jun 24, 2015 19:13
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OhYeah posted:Yes I know all of this, but this the gist of it: for the most part of the last 800 years, we have not been able to choose our own way, others have always chosen for us.
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Jun 24, 2015 19:32
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Xoidanor posted:I think the key issue is that the EU hasn't spent nearly enough of its effort at building a common european cultural identity. It has been schizoprehnic at best as shown by how its current attempts at quelling succession across the EU while simultaneously bolstering regional positions within its institutions. Some blame for this lies at the lisbon treaty but it is amazing how the union and the supra-nationional arms of the union can and will act against each other. A common European Cultural identity is not happening without forced population transfers imo. You are asking for the impossible. Lenin`s vision of a functional ,grey and uninspiring transnational machine of administration is much more realistic. I am inclined to say we that we just have to bear and grin it while we hope for something better.
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Jun 24, 2015 21:19
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LOL Behold, some of you guys (not going to be mean and point fingers) 
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Jun 24, 2015 21:54
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Nice piece of fish posted:Unrelated: Saw this and immediately thought of Ligur for some reason. It's me. I am the one with the Moomin avatar.
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Jun 24, 2015 22:03
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Nice piece of fish posted:A finnish troll, to be exact. I thought it rather fitting. I laughed. It wasn't very clever, but it was well timed. There are loads of really good jokes about Estonians: 1) A Russian was riding through the countryside on a bus in Estonia. Not being sure of his location or whether he was headed in the right direction, he asked the bus driver in broken Estonian, "Is Tallinn far?" The Estonian driver phlegmatically replied, "No." Reassured, the Russian returned to his seat and watched the countryside go by. Hours passed. Thinking that Estonia wasn't all that big and that surely they must be getting close to the capital, the Russian once again asked the driver in halting Estonian, "Is Tallinn far?" The driver replied, "It is now." 2) An American, a Russian, and an Estonian are riding in the same compartment in a train. The American takes out a pack of cigarettes, offers one to the others, and then throws the rest of the pack out the window. “What did you do that for?” exclaim both the Russian and the Estonian. “Ah, in America we have so many cigarettes…,” replies the American. After a while the Russian takes out a bottle of vodka, offers it all around, and then throws the rest of the vodka out the window. “What did you do that for?” ask the American and the Estonian. “Oh, in Russia, we have so much vodka…,” replies the Russian. Time goes by, and the Estonian sits in deep thought. Finally he throws the Russian out the window. A Buttery Pastry posted:If you include the last 800 years, that's pretty much true of every people, unless you believe the fact that French kings spoke French meant the people of France had the ability to choose their own way. Did Estonia have an empire at one point? I must have missed it in history class.
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Jun 24, 2015 22:49
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OhYeah posted:Did Estonia have an empire at one point? I must have missed it in history class. I've no idea what point you're trying to make here. My point is that "choosing your own way" in the context of a nation requires some sort of democracy, otherwise it's just some rear end in a top hat(s) who happens to speak your language deciding things. I guess maybe it would work under a Fascist conception of things, if the ruler is seen as essentially the physical manifestation of the will of the nation, but that's not really something I buy into.
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Jun 24, 2015 23:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:My point is that "choosing your own way" in the context of a nation requires some sort of democracy, otherwise it's just some rear end in a top hat(s) who happens to speak your language deciding things. If you take that assumption as a starting point you can discard the entire human history before the French Revolution.
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Jun 24, 2015 23:21
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OhYeah posted:If you take that assumption as a starting point you can discard the entire human history before the French Revolution. i think that was the implication yes
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Jun 24, 2015 23:23
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apart from, like, agrarian communes etc obv, but those were hardly nations
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Jun 24, 2015 23:24
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OhYeah posted:If you take that assumption as a starting point you can discard the entire human history before the French Revolution.
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