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Joementum posted:Quote of the night, "I miss having a shower on an airplane." ~ George W. Bush If we are lucky enough to last that long as a species, in 100 years people are going to watch footage of W with their jaws on the floor.
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Jun 25, 2015 06:26
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Joementum posted:Bonus quote of the day, "I have no respect for your ancestors. As far as your ancestors are concerned, I shouldn't be a law professor at Georgetown. I should be a slave. That's why they fought that war. I don't understand what it means to be proud of a legacy of terrorism and violence. Last week at this time, I was in Israel. The idea that a German would say, you know, that thing we did called the Holocaust, that was wrong, but I respect the courage of my Nazi ancestors. That wouldn't happen. The reason people can say what you said in the United States, is because, again, black life just doesn't matter to a lot of people." ~ Paul Butler, professor at Georgetown Law School. One of the things I've noticed about people is that identity is important to them. "Heritage," a sense of place and meaning is important; basically, people want to be recognized. Regional identity, etc. A lot of conflicts around the world dovetail into these feelings. The Confederate flag is part of that for a lot of white southerners. A lot of them are just plain racist. But for a lot of others it's just a symbol for who they are, and they feel like people want to take it away from them. (And unlike Germany, which remained a country with a flag and a symbol, there's nothing to replace it. They feel as if the South is going to lose its distinct identity -- something which does matter to a lot of Germans.) If they had more empathy and put themselves into the shoes of a black person, they might have more understanding as to why. And in any case it's their own drat fault, so I can't say I have much sympathy.
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Jun 25, 2015 06:53
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Their issue is that the confederacy updated their flag in 1865:
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Jun 25, 2015 06:57
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Omi-Polari posted:The Confederate flag is part of that for a lot of white southerners. A lot of them are just plain racist. But for a lot of others it's just a symbol for who they are, and they feel like people want to take it away from them. The kicker is that the flag wasn't flown over say, the SC state house until the 60s. It was a direct gently caress you to the civil rights movement and a warning to black people in state to mind their place in society. If "who they are" is centered around white supremacy, then gently caress them.
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Jun 25, 2015 07:10
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Omi-Polari posted:I understand where he's coming from, but I think he's overlooking something. I understand you aren't defending confederate sympathizers, but I'm not sure what you mean by "a lot of conflicts dovetail into these feelings," it seems ambiguous and pseudo intellectual and wrong to me. By incorporating a positive idea of confederate history or symbology into their identity they become racist. It's an inherently racist thing to do. Anyone who uses the confederate flag to build their identity in a positive way is just plain racist. Germany did not remain a country with a flag and a symbol. They lost quite a bit of land, their military was dismantled, they had their power as a country completely destroyed, they were fractured into two separate countries, and they had their Nazi symbology all but completely erased. What exactly do you think happened after World War 2?
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Jun 25, 2015 07:17
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zoux posted:I don't really care either because I think she was trying to be inclusive and by saying all lives matter what she meant was black lives specifically. However, since #alllivesmatter was the obnoxious white people response to #blacklivesmatter it is a massive misstep and one you'd expect a veteran politician like Hillary to avoid. It's a dogwhistle strategy to appeal to white voters. Clinton was the first to deploy it when used an event hosted by Jesse Jackson to disparage Sistah Souljah. Jackson said "he was talking to the TV audience. He was not talking to the people who were there." Romney was doing it when he needled the NAACP in 2012. Charles Blow said that "the speech was not designed for the audience in the room, but for those in Republican living rooms." Even Obama would lecture black audiences about "taking responsibility." Hillary is just continuing the tradition.
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Jun 25, 2015 07:27
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sugar free jazz posted:I understand you aren't defending confederate sympathizers, but I'm not sure what you mean by "a lot of conflicts dovetail into these feelings," it seems ambiguous and pseudo intellectual and wrong to me. You're expecting people who have lived in the south their entire lives who have been fed the War of Northern Aggression view of history to magically be educated enough to understand that everything they've been taught about the Civil War for their entire lives is wrong. That's gonna take some education and some time. As a country we are finally having that conversation, and I expect a lot of non-racist southerners to come around on it once it's explained to them that nobody's gonna come take the flag off the wall of their grandfather's den. These are the ramifications of reconstruction not happening properly. The comparison to Germany can't really be made. What happened in Germany didn't happen in the south after the civil war. So expecting the same results when the history is different just doesn't follow. As someone that doesn't understand anything about the south it's easy to sit back and say, "well they're all racist and they should know the confederate flag is racist!" but the reality is quite different. Yeah, it would be nice if everyone were educated enough to realize why the confederate flag is patently and undeniably a racist symbol. In reality, that process actually does take time and sometimes people refuse to look at it unless a tragedy accidentally forces it into the conversation. You can say the same about convincing people not to use the word "retarded" or "human being" or "negro." You can say the same about Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands. People express themselves certain ways for a variety of reasons that don't always mean they're filled with a seething hatred. Some people just really don't understand how the ways they express themselves are hurtful until it's explained to them in a way that's understandable. ErIog fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 07:29
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ErIog posted:You're expecting people who have lived in the south their entire lives who have been fed the War of Northern Aggression view of history to magically be educated enough to understand that everything they've been taught about the Civil War for their entire lives is wrong. That's gonna take some education and some time. As a country we are finally having that conversation, and I expect a lot of non-racist southerners to come around on it once it's explained to them that nobody's gonna come take the flag off the wall of their grandfather's den. What they've been fed is inherently racist. Being a racist usually isn't about seething hatred, and the idea that racism is only seething hatred is somewhat harmful. Hatred isn't necessary to think another group of humans is inferior. That they don't understand their racism is important and changes the moral equation a bit, but in no way makes them not racist.
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Jun 25, 2015 07:36
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sugar free jazz posted:What they've been fed is inherently racist. Being a racist usually isn't about seething hatred, and the idea that racism is only seething hatred is somewhat harmful. Hatred isn't necessary to think another group of humans is inferior. What did you mean by "they become racist" if you didn't mean that they have a hatred for black people? I'm really not sure what constructive point you're trying to make. Nobody here is trying to say that confederate symbols aren't racist or that they aren't often used by racists. Edit: I'm aware of what racism is. I wasn't sure what sugar free jazz meant by it, though, because it sounded a lot like the ordinary beating up on southerners in general for being racist that happens pretty often. ErIog fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 07:50
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ErIog posted:What did you mean by "they become racist" if you didn't mean that they have a hatred for black people? Hatred implies malice, when a lot of modern racists do not feel malice towards black people.
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Jun 25, 2015 07:51
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sugar free jazz posted:What they've been fed is inherently racist. Being a racist usually isn't about seething hatred, and the idea that racism is only seething hatred is somewhat harmful. Hatred isn't necessary to think another group of humans is inferior. Yes... I don't see where you're disagreeing with him.
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Jun 25, 2015 07:58
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Grouchio posted:Thanks. I seem to be overreacting stupidly to things alot this week. Must be summer exams. Is your school autism handler on standby?
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Jun 25, 2015 07:58
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ErIog posted:You're expecting people who have lived in the south their entire lives who have been fed the War of Northern Aggression view of history to magically be educated enough to understand that everything they've been taught about the Civil War for their entire lives is wrong. That's gonna take some education and some time. As a country we are finally having that conversation, and I expect a lot of non-racist southerners to come around on it once it's explained to them that nobody's gonna come take the flag off the wall of their grandfather's den. To add to this, both sides claim the intellectual high ground. A friend of mine lamented that I wasn't more well-read on the heritage arguments, and suggested that if I would read those articles (which they promised to send but haven't yet) I would surely come around to their way of thinking. I can almost see the merits of a death-of-the-author style argument. Even if the origin of the flag is mired in racism, couldn't good-hearted people claim it back? I don't think so myself, but I can see the appeal for those who don't think of themselves as racist but do identify as Southern.
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Jun 25, 2015 08:14
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baw posted:Hatred implies malice, when a lot of modern racists do not feel malice towards black people.
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Jun 25, 2015 08:28
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Fitzy Fitz posted:I'd miss the monuments if they were torn down. I love a good monument. Dynamite it smooth. Better option after that carve Sherman's face on the mountain.
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Jun 25, 2015 09:01
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Joementum posted:I would like to empanel a permanent House Select Committee to investigate whether Trey Gowdy is stoned at the Congressional Womens' Softball Game. Those are not the eyes of a man who just smoked a joint. Look at the size of those pupils. Our ole' buddy Trey took some xtc or MDMA. Now I want to go to the Congressional Womens' Softball game... E: The guy in the orange shirt however... richardfun fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 09:13
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Dilkington posted:"chattel slavery vs wage slavery" This has been at the core of my argument - since the goal now should be a public reconciliation with our history. Where have we been? Where are we going? 'You're lucky I give you food and shelter, a robot can do your job!'
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Jun 25, 2015 10:47
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richardfun posted:
Is Mr gowdy himself
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Jun 25, 2015 11:03
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joeburz posted:Is Mr gowdy himself Wait, really? I thought he was the guy in the black polo shirt. Who's that then? Edit: Meanwhile, some news (from yesterday) that might shock the Americans in this thread. While you're debating the existence of anthropogenic climate change, this is what a few judges in my country said yesterday. Apologies if the formatting/paragraphs are a bit off. quote:THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) _ A Dutch court ordered the government Wednesday to slash greenhouse gas emissions to help fight global warming, a landmark ruling in a case brought by hundreds of concerned citizens that could pave the way for similar legal battles around the world. richardfun fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 12:02
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richardfun posted:Wait, really? I thought he was the guy in the black polo shirt. Who's that then? Black polo is Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy.
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Jun 25, 2015 12:03
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Joementum posted:Black polo is Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy. Ah, my mistake. I remembered Gowdy having a grey head of hair and went from there. Guess McCarthy is the one to call when you're in the mood for a Congressional rave then. Gowdy is the go-to-guy for Coachella.
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Jun 25, 2015 12:07
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richardfun posted:Wait, really? I thought he was the guy in the black polo shirt. Who's that then? I guess dutch courts are not as thoroughly corrupted as the US courts? Would never happen here. Would probably never even make it to court as the monied interests would pull out every dirty trick in the book to keep it out. Assuming it does get to court, and I get an ice cream making unicorn, it would be shopped around for a judge deep enough in someone's pocket to make the outcome a foregone conclusion, the trial would be dragged out for as many years as possible to bankrupt he opponents, and thenif I can have three unicorns and it was a successful trial it would be appealed into irrelevance and somehow a counter-suit would come out of it while every politician with a camera would lie about factual truths and FOX Entertainment and Limbaugh would make poo poo up about their mother's dog.
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Jun 25, 2015 13:14
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richardfun posted:Those are not the eyes of a man who just smoked a joint. Look at the size of those pupils. Our ole' buddy Trey took some xtc or MDMA. Those are also the eyes of someone who doesn't get a lot of sleep.
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Jun 25, 2015 13:30
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:Fox News will use the video and not mention what the heckler was mad about but they will focus on the "you're in my house" as Barack being a dictator. I am quoting myself because I just saw this on Fox News' website: You're In My House: Obama Scolds Heckler at White House gay pride reception posted:
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Jun 25, 2015 13:42
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Joementum posted:I would like to empanel a permanent House Select Committee to investigate whether Trey Gowdy is stoned at the Congressional Womens' Softball Game. Counterpoint: he looks stoned in his own official Congressional portrait-- 
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Jun 25, 2015 13:47
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Expecting 1+ opinion from the court today starting at 10 am eastern. I'm betting it will be the Mercury ruling
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Jun 25, 2015 13:56
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sugar free jazz has a point, I think. Identity is important to a lot of people, and a big part of changing minds and making progress is giving people better alternatives to identify with. I think a lot of progress could be made in the South by introducing a powerful competing narrative for people to identify with and feel proud of that isn't based around racism. Talking to people who fly the flag, I do feel that many of them simply wish to appropriate it because they've got nothing better. It's not even about the flag, directly. It's about having pride in where you're from, and a lot of Southerners don't really know the story's worth having pride in, or can't see themselves in the ones they do, and so they latch onto what's available and then try to rewrite those stories in such a way that they can have pride in them. Abolishing institutions tend to work better when you've got a place you can point people to go and say "and if you're looking for the same sort of thing this provided you but without the bad bits, you can head on over to that over there and get it".
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Jun 25, 2015 13:56
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Well yeah, the thing with people's feelings is that just saying "your feelings are bad" doesn't make them stop feeling that way--give them new emotional ground to occupy instead and they'll switch over quickly. And then they'll never admit to having occupied the previous position, which is how you know it worked.
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Jun 25, 2015 14:01
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You aren't just Black, you're American You aren't just Muslim, you're American You aren't just German, you're American You aren't just a Southerner, you're American You aren't just Texan, you're American We live on a shrinking globe. No separatist hate flags. E Pluribus Unum.
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Jun 25, 2015 14:19
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Fried Chicken posted:Expecting 1+ opinion from the court today starting at 10 am eastern. 2 boxes of opinions so likely quite a few! Edit: SCOTUS upholds the disparate interest test under the Fair Housing Act. Lancelot fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 14:59
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http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-1371_m64o.pdf Fair Housing opinion
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Jun 25, 2015 15:05
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fits my needs posted:Is your school autism handler on standby?
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Jun 25, 2015 15:06
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Health care up
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Jun 25, 2015 15:09
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Health care 6-3 4th court affirmed
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Jun 25, 2015 15:10
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4th circuit upheld, subsidies are available
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Jun 25, 2015 15:10
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Obama wins, subsidies upheld, which really means the GOP dodged a hell of a bullet. I am very happy to be wrong in my prediction
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Jun 25, 2015 15:11
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I guess Kennedy and Roberts both decided not to be assholes 
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Jun 25, 2015 15:11
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Fried Chicken posted:Obama wins, subsidies upheld, which really means the GOP dodged a hell of a bullet. Whew. I wonder how many people know how close they came to losing any/all subsidies, and healthcare costs skyrocketing.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:11
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Roberts, Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan for the majority. Scalia, Alito, Thomas dissent.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:11
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Lancelot posted:2 boxes of opinions so likely quite a few! They are adding some restrictions to it though (eg statistical disparity is not enough). and add cautions suggesting openness to further imposing in it
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Jun 25, 2015 15:12
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