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THE BAR posted:This sound absolutely crippling to diplovassalizing, or am I misreading this? The main question I have is if this is just for peace-time vassalization offers, or if it'll affect stuff like forced vassalization after a war. Like will this block me from taking one of their provinces/cores during the peace deal in order to use said province to fabricate claims on neighbors while still forcing them to be my vassal? Because if that's the case than that does seem like a fairly big nerf to diplo-annexing. It also just makes me want a "Make vassal fabricate claims on a neighbor" option that much more. I'd love to be able to spend like 5-10 prestige for a 5-10% liberty desire penalty to have my vassal fabricate a claim on that stupid OPM that's bordering them that I won't be able to declare war on for another two decades otherwise.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:45
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Tsyni posted:Just feed its cores to another vassal. Stupid vassals. Pretty sure the AI still counts Vassal control for you controlling provinces.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:45
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That Vassal/Core rule is gonna be strange. I don't understand why they'd do that. Core costs haven't been softened either, so gently caress that.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:48
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Rumda posted:Pretty sure the AI still counts Vassal control for you controlling provinces. Instead of diplo vassalizing and feeding the cores back you just give the land to other vassals
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Jun 26, 2015 21:49
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:That Vassal/Core rule is gonna be strange. I don't understand why they'd do that. Why is this a problem? It makes sense that they wouldn't peacefully choose to be your vassal if you own land that's theirs. You can still just declare war and vassalize them if you need to.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:53
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:You know what, instead of a +1 diplomat at kingdom and +1 leader at empire I think it would be cooler if you get +1 free national policy slot at kingdom and at empire rank. That would mean giving huge countries +2MP/month as a reward for being powerful. That'd be real dumb. Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:That Vassal/Core rule is gonna be strange. I don't understand why they'd do that. The vassal/core rule is solid. Presumably they want their cores back, they shouldn't be willing to become subject to you. And core costs have softened, starting around 1630.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:54
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I dunno, I'm just being pedantic. I mean, if they love you enough for 190 relationship then why would it matter?
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Jun 26, 2015 22:05
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Yashichi posted:Why is this a problem? It makes sense that they wouldn't peacefully choose to be your vassal if you own land that's theirs. You can still just declare war and vassalize them if you need to. Ah, see, now it makes sense to me.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:10
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Has anyone ever had sea patrol break for them before? I'm clicking patrol, and selecting a different sea zone, but the button immediately declicks itself. I've never had this happen before. There isn't anything weird going on with the fleet, like they're carrying troops or anything.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:11
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quote:- Most event-given advisors will now come with a salary discount. That was either fast work or a coincidence, since it hasn't been very long since that change was suggested in this thread. A good change anyway!
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Jun 26, 2015 22:14
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:I dunno, I'm just being pedantic. I mean, if they love you enough for 190 relationship then why would it matter? I think as it stands, you can snipe valuable provinces and eventually vassalize the rest. Now if you take any part of their territory in a war, you can't vassalize them diplomatically. If it blocks military that would be a real issue for vassalizing larger countries, since there's often multiple wars involved before you get a <100% warscore vassalizable chunk. So I'm pretty sure it applies to diplomatic vassalization, which checks for a variety of other conditions before they accept anyway. It's not just the 190 relations before a country will agree to be diplo-vassaled, it looks at relative military strength, distance from border, development levels, etc. As for the 'in game' reasoning I think for a country to want to be vassalized diplomatically they'd want their rightful territory back first before agreeing to become a vassal.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:15
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Apoffys posted:That was either fast work or a coincidence, since it hasn't been very long since that change was suggested in this thread. A good change anyway! It's actually been something I've been wanting to do for a year and a half. Finally got some time to bite into my backlog for this patch.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:15
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Wiz posted:It's actually been something I've been wanting to do for a year and a half. Finally got some time to bite into my backlog for this patch. I laughed out loud the first time I played new Ethiopia and got that really early +3 adviser event. I couldn't even afford a single +1 at the time.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:21
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PittTheElder posted:That would mean giving huge countries +2MP/month as a reward for being powerful. That'd be real dumb. How is it two free mp, an unused free national policy slot wouldn't magically turn into a monarch power boost. It's more dumb right now that most national policies get completely unused and unlooked at it because they are not worth the mp drain and that aristocratic finally looks attractive. This change would keep +1 diplomat and +1 leader ideas attractive and also let players experience national policies that may not be +5% discipline.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:28
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I just ran into trouble while trying to do the Tabarestan into Persia achievements. I got a bit cocky adding provinces to Persia without realizing that they'd probably get a bunch of provinces from Timurid rebels as well, and when that happened it pushed them just over 50% liberty desire when I was halfway through annexing them. Sometime after this the Ottomans broke their alliance and rivalled me and I got the Internal Conflicts disaster and I thought I was hosed. Luckily it worked out cause Placate Rulers is insane (though I had to farm prestige for it by forcing a bunch of countries to revoke their cores). I have no idea why Persia didn't declare on me, I had no real allies and they were somewhere between 50 and 80% Liberty Desire at all times. That was too close.  That was a 47 year annexation 
Elman fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 23:21
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I really don't get the +100% cost to primitives. They were already the group in the game that most badly needed MPs, this is just going to hurt them even further, especially since a lot of their provinces are crap (and/or mountains for South America) to begin with. It doesn't even make any sense, since prior to European arrival, parts of Central and South America were among the most densely populated areas of the world. If anything, they needed a cost reduction - they don't have points to spare for development prior to this.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:25
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I've never actually played in the new world; do people really try to keep up with tech there? When you reform, you get the majority of the tech levels of the country you reform off of- doesn't it make more sense to just sit around as a tech 1 loaf spending all your MP to upgrade your provinces?
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Jun 26, 2015 23:41
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Presumably they want to keep "primitives" weak enough that European powers can easily colonize/crush them, to keep the game more or less moving along historical lines, but they don't want to include all the depressing reasons why the natives were so weak and ripe for conquest. If they didn't give the American natives severe penalties and still kept the worst of plagues and genocides out of the game, the first Europeans to arrive in the Americas would probably find something like this waiting for them:
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Jun 26, 2015 23:42
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So can someone explain the benefits of parliament and debates? I love the idea but the rewards mostly seem like poo poo vs what you have to pay to pass them. For instance to win a debate that gave me like 1 base tax and 1 manpower in a province I had to spend about 200 MP, a nearly a thousand golds, and some prestige and republican tradition to get it to pass. I could have bought those base tax's with about 150 MP. When ever I stop to do a cost/benefit on most of the debate bonuses they don't really add up, at least not if you're a large country with tons of MP's to bribe. Also how many do I need to bribe? Do I just need over 50% then wait? Is the percentage a chance per month? Sometimes I forget to bribe enough people and let it sit at about 30-40% and the debate eventually fails. It would be cool if there was a popup or icon warning you that a debate is close to failing. I really want to like the seat and parliament system but it's either not really balanced, not very clear, or I'm just dumb. Apoffys posted:Presumably they want to keep "primitives" weak enough that European powers can easily colonize/crush them, to keep the game more or less moving along historical lines, but they don't want to include all the depressing reasons why the natives were so weak and ripe for conquest. If they didn't give the American natives severe penalties and still kept the worst of plagues and genocides out of the game, the first Europeans to arrive in the Americas would probably find something like this waiting for them: I would so love to see a proper new-world DLC that actually had an accurate historical start for new world nations. Let players build mighty and developed empires only to see it all crumble from disease. I think that would actually be a fun dynamic, to see if you could possibly salvage your culture, society, technology. Actually play the game through essentially an apocalypse and when you think things can't get any worse, an army of genocidal barbarians finish you off. There could actually be dynamics that let disease and chaos reduce your provinces down to "tribal" levels, essentially making the province become "empty" with a native population based on the most recent development. Basically the crumbling of new-world civilizations would be really interesting to see modeled in the game, would be educational, and I think pretty fun to try to play through. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jun 26, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 23:43
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It's a chance; you could be at 95% chance to win and still lose, or 10% and manage to pass it through. Once in a blue moon there are some pretty powerful bonuses that show up- extra settler, extra merchant- and in the early game it's generally pretty good deals. But I agree that by the midgame it feels like more of a pain than a benefit, and I've usually just straight up forgotten about it after a point; it'd be nice if it had bigger bonuses. Maybe for a bigger cost than -1 prestige/ month if you don't have a debate going though.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:50
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Apoffys posted:Presumably they want to keep "primitives" weak enough that European powers can easily colonize/crush them, to keep the game more or less moving along historical lines, but they don't want to include all the depressing reasons why the natives were so weak and ripe for conquest. If they didn't give the American natives severe penalties and still kept the worst of plagues and genocides out of the game, the first Europeans to arrive in the Americas would probably find something like this waiting for them: I always thought it would be cool if Sunset Invasion converted games not only had the 100% tech cost Americans, but they also played like Iberians and GB and would aggressively attack Europeans/North Africans/ETC to try and funnel trade back to the New World. One of the versions of that ridiculous Byzantine escape mod lets you do that, and it's awesome.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:51
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Node posted:Has anyone ever had sea patrol break for them before? I'm clicking patrol, and selecting a different sea zone, but the button immediately declicks itself. I've never had this happen before. There isn't anything weird going on with the fleet, like they're carrying troops or anything. You're doing it the wrong way round. Set up the route you want them to take, then click patrol.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:58
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Koramei posted:I've never actually played in the new world; do people really try to keep up with tech there? When you reform, you get the majority of the tech levels of the country you reform off of- doesn't it make more sense to just sit around as a tech 1 loaf spending all your MP to upgrade your provinces? Generally you want to keep mil tech up high enough to dominate the other natives, and also possibly dip tech if for some reason you need boats. If you're further away from the Atlantic coast you might also get admin tech up so you can get additional colonists.
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Jun 27, 2015 00:02
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:How is it two free mp, an unused free national policy slot wouldn't magically turn into a monarch power boost. It's more dumb right now that most national policies get completely unused and unlooked at it because they are not worth the mp drain and that aristocratic finally looks attractive. This change would keep +1 diplomat and +1 leader ideas attractive and also let players experience national policies that may not be +5% discipline. No, but it turns into a free national policy slot that is nominally worth 1mp/month. In terms of opportunity cost, it would be exactly as good as giving them +2mp/month. Nobody is ever going to use the free slot to pick a subpar idea, they're all going to pick up the best military bonuses they can, pay no points for them, and be that much stronger. Nakedly rewarding strength with more strength is a dumb way to build a game. +1 diplomat and +1 leaders at least reflects that they need to be in more places at once. Honestly I'd prefer if they got nothing at all for a title change, except for a cool new title. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 00:24
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Koramei posted:I've never actually played in the new world; do people really try to keep up with tech there? When you reform, you get the majority of the tech levels of the country you reform off of- doesn't it make more sense to just sit around as a tech 1 loaf spending all your MP to upgrade your provinces? I can't speak for North or Central American since I haven't played them in a few patches, but as Inca, you need to get to Admin 5 and get Exploration filled ASAP so you can get into position to reform your religion ASAP. Mil tech helps you against any other tribes and can let you beat small stacks if you absolutely have to of Europeans. Every year you waste prior to reforming your religion is a year that Europe has to get stronger, get better entrenched in the New World, and to take most/all of your country in a single war. Moving the first idea to Admin 5 really, really hurts natives, because that's 10-15 years of points, which means you're colonizing with one colonist and 10 settler growth per year. It also means you have to spend your diplo points on the useless tech 2 that doesn't really get you anything. You could invest these points, but you don't really get a lot of benefit from them since your land is crap to begin with and a lot of it is mountains with a + development cost penalty. TTBF posted:Generally you want to keep mil tech up high enough to dominate the other natives, and also possibly dip tech if for some reason you need boats. If you're further away from the Atlantic coast you might also get admin tech up so you can get additional colonists. Native navies were removed a few patches out, which also means that you can only colonize by adjacent land provinces (Caribbean is off limits), you can't get explorers to explore sea zones, etc. Natives were a bit too easy to play in previous patches, but they've been getting more and more penalties with each patch. Before Common Sense, it was really, really difficult to survive as Inca, but if you tried a few times and got lucky, you could get into position to reform and then westernize 10-20 years after the Europeans show up, and during most of that time, there were things you could do. Now, by 1500, you'll have colonized about 5 provinces - you'll get exploration at about this time so you can colonize a bit faster then, but it could be 20-40 years before you get close enough to westernize and there will be absolutely nothing to do. You also can't take coastal provinces, because until you reform your government, anyone that has completed Exploration can declare war on you and end your run. Before Common Sense, I was generally able to start my westernization around 1510 or so if I had really good leaders the whole run. Basically, they have two expansions that flesh out natives that made them fun to play, and then they constantly hit them with stuff every patch since that has made them weaker and weaker until they just aren't any fun to play once you've beaten your neighbors, and they got especially hit hard with Common Sense with pretty much every major change. Common Sense is a blast as a European, but it took all the fun out of playing a native tribe, and so it's just baffling to see them get hit with another thing without any compensation. At the very least, I think that the +15 colonist technology could be moved to Dip 2, which offers absolutely nothing to anyone that has to actually research it. Even if you can afford a second colony, 10 growth/year means that in ten years, you have the equivalent of your colonist passing its check four times, so why bother? A lot of the provinces you have to colonize to reach the Europeans also have a penalty to growth, too. I'd also like to see them get a crappy unique trade ship so they can at least explore once they get exploration. Most native tribes by the ocean had some form of seafaring vessel. OneTwentySix fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 00:54
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So how the heck do I escape Greece as Byzantium. So far I've managed to no-CB war Ragusa, annex them, vasaslize OPM Bosnia and return all their cores, then annex what was left over of Serbia. Naples got released due to a war where Aragon lost a ton of prestige, so I attacked them too. Unfortuantely they got allies last second so I was only able to take one province. Then I got coalitioned by all of Italy and declared on. I don't know where else I can go. Maybe no-CB Connaught or something insane like that and wait for Ottomans to declare to get a 'free' hilariously huge capital switch? I don't even know if that would work. Urbino being a vassal at the start now sucks because that was one of my favorite provinces to hop into the HRE with as various countries.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:07
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If you're going to no CB do it on an orthodox country. Ragusa is catholic so all the nearby Italian minors will hate you.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:15
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OneTwentySix posted:I really don't get the +100% cost to primitives. They were already the group in the game that most badly needed MPs, this is just going to hurt them even further, especially since a lot of their provinces are crap (and/or mountains for South America) to begin with. It doesn't even make any sense, since prior to European arrival, parts of Central and South America were among the most densely populated areas of the world. If anything, they needed a cost reduction - they don't have points to spare for development prior to this. Even with the +100% cost for primitives after ~7-11 (depending on terrain) province improvements development is cheaper then in the current patch. As a primitive you never want to tech unless you absolutely have to because you get so much tech for "free" once you start westernizing, which means you have thousands of monarch points that you have no use for. With the new waaaaaaaaaay cheaper development it takes between 1800-2500 (again depending on terrain) mp's to take a 1/1/1 province to 30 development. Which is only 1 to 1.5 tech levels for a +150% tech cost nation. If there was no penalty then by the time the europeans would arrive you could have a couple constantinoples in the new world, which would be fine if they implemented how disease devastated much of the new world but taking away the progress you built wouldn't be very fun either. TTBF posted:Generally you want to keep mil tech up high enough to dominate the other natives, and also possibly dip tech if for some reason you need boats. If you're further away from the Atlantic coast you might also get admin tech up so you can get additional colonists. You don't get boats as primitives period.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:16
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Yashichi posted:If you're going to no CB do it on an orthodox country. Ragusa is catholic so all the nearby Italian minors will hate you. Thanks
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Jun 27, 2015 01:20
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If anyone wants to get an achievement where you start as a tiny country dependent on a big power do it before this next patch. Allies are going to be more critical of your army size/force limits and won't want to ally you if you already have a great power ally by the sounds of it.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:37
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Larry Parrish posted:So how the heck do I escape Greece as Byzantium. So far I've managed to no-CB war Ragusa, annex them, vasaslize OPM Bosnia and return all their cores, then annex what was left over of Serbia. Naples got released due to a war where Aragon lost a ton of prestige, so I attacked them too. Unfortuantely they got allies last second so I was only able to take one province. Then I got coalitioned by all of Italy and declared on. Don't leave Greece. Just get alliances with both Austria and Poland and wait for the right time to declare on them. That's basically what I did as Albania and The Knights, too. The Ottomans are strong but they have terrible allies, get enough big powers on your side and you can just ignore the seas and take over the balkans.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:56
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Elman posted:Don't leave Greece. Just get alliances with both Austria and Poland and wait for the right time to declare on them. I'm trying to do New World Byzantium without using that OP mod 
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Jun 27, 2015 01:59
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Trujillo posted:If anyone wants to get an achievement where you start as a tiny country dependent on a big power do it before this next patch. Allies are going to be more critical of your army size/force limits and won't want to ally you if you already have a great power ally by the sounds of it. On the other hand you have this: quote:- Now more willing to ally weak countries that are threatened by a rival.
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Jun 27, 2015 02:45
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I'm in aachens coalition war against burgandy as England that also includes Austria. Separately, I'm allied to, a recently punched out of France, Toulouse who just got war decced by the papal states who called in austria on their side. What happens to the coalition war if I accept the defensive coa I just got? I would be allied yet against Austria
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Jun 27, 2015 06:27
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OneTwentySix posted:I really don't get the +100% cost to primitives. They were already the group in the game that most badly needed MPs, this is just going to hurt them even further, especially since a lot of their provinces are crap (and/or mountains for South America) to begin with. It doesn't even make any sense, since prior to European arrival, parts of Central and South America were among the most densely populated areas of the world. If anything, they needed a cost reduction - they don't have points to spare for development prior to this. Baronjutter posted:I would so love to see a proper new-world DLC that actually had an accurate historical start for new world nations. Let players build mighty and developed empires only to see it all crumble from disease. I think that would actually be a fun dynamic, to see if you could possibly salvage your culture, society, technology. Actually play the game through essentially an apocalypse and when you think things can't get any worse, an army of genocidal barbarians finish you off. There could actually be dynamics that let disease and chaos reduce your provinces down to "tribal" levels, essentially making the province become "empty" with a native population based on the most recent development. Basically the crumbling of new-world civilizations would be really interesting to see modeled in the game, would be educational, and I think pretty fun to try to play through.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:31
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ImPureAwesome posted:I'm in aachens coalition war against burgandy as England that also includes Austria. Separately, I'm allied to, a recently punched out of France, Toulouse who just got war decced by the papal states who called in austria on their side. What happens to the coalition war if I accept the defensive coa I just got? I would be allied yet against Austria Nothing.
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Jun 27, 2015 07:27
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PittTheElder posted:Nothing. Could Austria take the stuff in burgundy I conquered? Or do you nothing as in no war
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Jun 27, 2015 07:34
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Nothing as in no war. There's a hard engine limitation that says you cannot be allied in a war with someone, and simultaneously at war with them. Since you would be both of those things with regard to Austria, when you accept the CtA, you remain outside the war.
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Jun 27, 2015 07:53
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PittTheElder posted:Nothing as in no war. There's a hard engine limitation that says you cannot be allied in a war with someone, and simultaneously at war with them. Since you would be both of those things with regard to Austria, when you accept the CtA, you remain outside the war. Okay works for me I'd rather not fight another war after back to back wars with France and burgundy
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Jun 27, 2015 08:05
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Can someone explain the mechanics of Unlawful Territory and the Imperial Liberation CB to me? I'm trying my first ever ironman game as the Palatinate and I don't want to get my rear end beat by bringing the emperor's wrath down upon me. Does the emperor demand unlawful territory back when you take any province in the HRE? And does that apply to diploannexing? Also, being allies with the emperor means they probably won't press the Imperial Liberation CB, right...? 
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Jun 27, 2015 08:32
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