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Venom Snake posted:Do you seriously think she is some sort of lizard queen that votes for progressive stuff and pushes universal health care for selfish reasons? I think in the past she's been afraid of being too progressive lest it bites her again like Hillarycare.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:29
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computer parts posted:Among the 50 states and the District of Columbia, Vermont ranks: Man, it's like our own little Scandinavia or something.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:30
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Venom Snake posted:Third wayism began as a way of negotiation with the then Republican congress. If the democrats wanted to get anything passed they had to compromise big time. No it didn't, the first two years of Clinton saw the dems control congress and we got NAFTA.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:31
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Venom Snake posted:Hillary has the black Democratic vote on lock down. Mostly because black politicians don't have much interface with senators from 99% white states. quote:Bernie could lose a large amount of the Hispanic vote to Jeb or Marco Rubio because he has zero experience in minority politics. Only if Jeb or Rubio can win the nomination without dogwhistling immigrants which we both know they can't.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:31
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I think in the past she's been afraid of being too progressive lest it bites her again like Hillarycare. She should be, pushing to hard can often lead to unintended results. Gay marriage wouldn't be universally legal now without the Republicans fighting against it so hard.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:No it didn't, the first two years of Clinton saw the dems control congress and we got NAFTA. NAFTA was primarily negotiated by Bush Sr.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:34
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Raskolnikov38 posted:No it didn't, the first two years of Clinton saw the dems control congress and we got NAFTA. The Democratic Party wasn't nearly as progressive as the modern party is. Conservative democrats were still very much a thing. This however does not reflect the modern party were blue dogs are dead. Miltank posted:Hillary had the black vote on lock in 2008. Then she lost NH and they abandoned ship to someone more favorable. Jeb and Rubio has the advantage of running in a large Hispanic state, Bernie has never had any experience in minority politics what so ever and his current campaign reflects that rather brutally.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:34
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Miltank posted:Hillary had the black vote on lock in 2008. Then she lost NH and they abandoned ship to someone more favorable. Iowa, not NH, though you're right to point to Obama needing to cross a perceived viability threshold to swing the black vote (though Clinton's strategy did her no favors in that department).
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Jun 27, 2015 23:35
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Bernie has mostly so far campaigned and gotten name recognition in mostly white states (his own Vermont, Iowa, and New Hampshire) whereas his national name recognition is still nowhere near that of Hillary's. There's no reason to think he can't do the same in states with larger minority populations, other than some dumb belief that Hillary already has them locked down absolutely for some reason.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:36
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computer parts posted:NAFTA was primarily negotiated by Bush Sr. And this makes Clinton putting his signature to it better?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:36
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Raskolnikov38 posted:And this makes Clinton putting his signature to it better? If you believe that foreign relations should be respected, then yes.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:38
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What the poo poo is president Bern going to do to crack down on Wall Street? Even assuming a midterm swing back to a slim Dem majority in the Senate, there is no loving way that Sanders can do the horse trading and politicking that would be necessary to pass ANY meaningful reform legislation. The last major regulation, Dodd Frank, was passed along party lines.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:39
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Venom Snake posted:The Democratic Party wasn't nearly as progressive as the modern party is. Conservative democrats were still very much a thing. This however does not reflect the modern party were blue dogs are dead. Agreed but my reading of Hilary is she got burned with Hillarycare, saw how well Bill was doing with thirdwayism and adopted that. Whether she's gotten past that remains to be entirely seen since it's not even July yet.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:39
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Bernie has mostly so far campaigned and gotten name recognition in mostly white states (his own Vermont, Iowa, and New Hampshire) whereas his national name recognition is still nowhere near that of Hillary's. There's no reason to think he can't do the same in states with larger minority populations, other than some dumb belief that Hillary already has them locked down absolutely for some reason. Bernie has made absolutely zero effort to reach out to local minority politicians so far like Hillary has; which makes sense because the man has absolutely zero experience in how minority politics work. Voting smart is how the black population in this country has survived; do not expect them to jump on the ideological bernie hype train because you demand it.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:40
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Raskolnikov38 posted:No it didn't, the first two years of Clinton saw the dems control congress and we got NAFTA. The only bad part of NAFTA was that cross-border labor wasn't freed as much as capital was
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Jun 27, 2015 23:40
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Raskolnikov38 posted:And this makes Clinton putting his signature to it better? NAFTA wasn't bad.  neonnoodle posted:What the poo poo is president Bern going to do to crack down on Wall Street? Even assuming a midterm swing back to a slim Dem majority in the Senate, there is no loving way that Sanders can do the horse trading and politicking that would be necessary to pass ANY meaningful reform legislation. The last major regulation, Dodd Frank, was passed along party lines. Shh, they get mad when you remind them that even if their long shot candidate got into office, he couldn't mind control Republican congressmen to vote correctly.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:40
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computer parts posted:If you believe that foreign relations should be respected, then yes. We've signed treaties and not ratified them before you know.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:41
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Raskolnikov38 posted:We've signed treaties and not ratified them before you know. And we saw the positive effects of not ratifying the Treaty of Versailles.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:42
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Agreed but my reading of Hilary is she got burned with Hillarycare, saw how well Bill was doing with thirdwayism and adopted that. Whether she's gotten past that remains to be entirely seen since it's not even July yet. Hillary's current stated positions would make her unelectable in the most blue state in the union 10 years ago. I think people are really forgetting this.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:43
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Voyager I posted:Man, it's like our own little Scandinavia or something. Incidentally, Shumlin isn't going for a re-elect in VT for a variety of reasons but one very notable one - the failure of Single Payer on the VT exchange. Being harnessed to Single Payer certainly wasn't the only reason he failed to achieve a majority in the polls last year but it's certainly a major one. For all people think VT is some hotbed of leftism, it's really not.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:43
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computer parts posted:And we saw the positive effects of not ratifying the Treaty of Versailles. Oh for fucks sake, please tell me you're not holding the league up as a paragon of global peace and order.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:43
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I mean, if I had my ideal president it would probably be Bernie, but even assuming that Democrats get the most absurd sort of majority in Congress I don't know that Bernie could get most of his juiciest policies through - let alone in the more likely scenario that the house has a ton of Republicans in it who will wail about everything down to his choice of lunch.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:44
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Oh for fucks sake, please tell me you're not holding the league up as a paragon of global peace and order. It certainly would have worked better if one of the major winning countries had supported it.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:44
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It bears repeating - the sitting Democratic governor of Vermont championed single payer and was unable to achieve a majority of the votes in his most recent election. He had to be re-elected by the state legislature. America is not as leftist as u think.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:44
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uncurable mlady posted:It bears repeating - the sitting Democratic governor of Vermont championed single payer and was unable to achieve a majority of the votes in his most recent election. He had to be re-elected by the state legislature. How did the attack ads look? What was it about single payer that they were rejecting?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:46
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Bernie doesn't have the connections to get things done in the executive branch. Hillary does. Ignoring this is what makes the Bernie purity posters so aggravating. Politics even in leftists states is a dirty affair; and you need a fighter leading the charge.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:46
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Oh for fucks sake, please tell me you're not holding the league up as a paragon of global peace and order. Dog it would have been a lot more effective if the one major power that didn't get seriously wrecked was party to it to enforce poo poo.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:47
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computer parts posted:It certainly would have worked better if one of the major winning countries had supported it. It would have worked better if its charter wasn't a poorly thought out piece of garbage.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:47
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Absurd Alhazred posted:How did the attack ads look? What was it about single payer that they were rejecting? IIRC the major issue is that it was a major hit on the budget since the fixed costs were relatively high to the state's low GDP.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:48
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Absurd Alhazred posted:How did the attack ads look? What was it about single payer that they were rejecting? Well, as only a tangential watcher of VT politics, I can't speak to everything. There were other big issues - heroin, natch - and it's very possible that people soured on single payer due to the hilarious catastrophic launch and continued operation of the VT exchange which to my understanding is still somewhat unusable.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:48
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computer parts posted:IIRC the major issue is that it was a major hit on the budget since the fixed costs were relatively high to the state's low GDP. also dis
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Jun 27, 2015 23:49
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Nintendo Kid posted:Dog it would have been a lot more effective if the one major power that didn't get seriously wrecked was party to it to enforce poo poo. Really? Hoover would have really sent troops to Manchuria?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:51
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Absurd Alhazred posted:How did the attack ads look? What was it about single payer that they were rejecting? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8FLi-bm07c Shumlin had two big problems: first, the state's ACA exchange didn't work (they used the same contractor that did healthcare.gov) which people conflated with the single payer plan, and second he hadn't released many details of the plan prior to the election and had invested much of the responsibility for creating it in a panel he controlled, which created a lot of skepticism about it.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:53
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Joementum posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8FLi-bm07c So the idea might still be salvageable in Vermont. Our lower house here in NYS passed a single-payer bill, I wonder if it'll actually pass a Senate and a Cuomo sometime in the next couple of years.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:56
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computer parts posted:IIRC the major issue is that it was a major hit on the budget since the fixed costs were relatively high to the state's low GDP. The costs of the plan didn't come out until after the election, but the problem with it will be the problem with any state-level single payer system, so they're important to understand. Right now, if you get healthcare through an employer, that benefit is considered income, but isn't taxed. If Vermont switched to a single payer system, the federal tax code only allows for certain revenue sources to be used to fund that plan and keep it as federally tax-exempt income, specifically a state payroll tax. The plan would have required a ~11.5% payroll tax increase, for both employees and employers, which wasn't politically feasible. The only alternative would be to get Congress to change the federal law and give the state subsidies to help fund the program, which also obviously wasn't going to happen.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:57
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Feather posted:All valid points. Hillary has in the past stood in the way of LGBT efforts for equality, but she at least made some efforts during her tenure as SoS to remedy that. On a personal level I don't think she thinks, or even has ever thought LGBT individuals should be second class citizens; I just think she's a creature of politics and cares about one thing, similar to her male counterparts: obtaining power. Whatever motivated her (pandering) to do those things as SoS, the net result was a positive for the LGBT community. Whether she should get credit for that, and in what capacity, is debatable. But one thing isn't: she hasn't recently hosed LGBTs over; quite the opposite and it's not appropriate to not acknowledge that. She has no convictions what so ever. She doesn't care. She is only going along with it because its what the polls say. Johnny come lately suddenly wants credit. The minute the polls change she'll go right back on her promises.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:58
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Mandy Thompson posted:She has no convictions what so ever. She doesn't care. She is only going along with it because its what the polls say. Johnny come lately suddenly wants credit. The minute the polls change she'll go right back on her promises. If she enacts progressive change and policy because of poll numbers does that make her evil? Because it feels like an incredibly bad faith argument against someone to say they are only doing what you want for personal reasons.
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Jun 28, 2015 00:01
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Like do you guys understand that this is essentially the same stupid "HE'S A RINO" poo poo FREEP and other Republicans do right? Self destructive in fighting isn't good in a 2 party system.
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Jun 28, 2015 00:04
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Also, since we're talking about it, here's the best moments from the 2014 Vermont Gubernatorial debate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOEVmwFCYtQ And there's a 2016 primary connection! The guy on the far left (both of the screen and ideologically) who showed up in jorts, declared himself a revolutionary socialist, and called on the workers at the Burlington IBM plant to rise of and seize the means of production, is Peter Diamondstone, a 22-time candidate for office in Vermont and founder of the Liberty Union Party. When Bernie unsuccessfully ran for Governor of Vermont in the 70s it was on the Liberty Union ticket.
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Jun 28, 2015 00:05
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Venom Snake posted:If she enacts progressive change and policy because of poll numbers does that make her evil? Because it feels like an incredibly bad faith argument against someone to say they are only doing what you want for personal reasons. On the other hand, it's entirely valid to look at that kind of shift as undermining the likelihood that an officeholder will prioritize the issue to the extent that a voter prefers/requires or even a candidate espouses.
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Jun 28, 2015 00:05
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