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The Droid posted:No I meant the constant deluge of tweets that may as well have been "Uhg I am so mad about this!" for days and weeks on end, not that one thing alone. Pretty much. He ranted for weeks about this sort of thing, spitting bile at anyone who tried to interact with him. Posting tweets would make for an enormous post.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:17
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The Droid posted:No I meant the constant deluge of tweets that may as well have been "Uhg I am so mad about this!" for days and weeks on end, not that one thing alone. Oh, I see. So, since Baldwin only has short, violent outbursts he's safe from being doxxed and having his bank account hijacked, but if he grumbles continuously for a few weeks he's fair game.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:18
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Shadoer posted:Partly true, but it was odd that many of them missed the glaring flaw that the game could be over in a few minutes depending on your choices. "Your choices" meaning if you knew where the secret passage was because you had already finished the game or else walked along every wall hitting interact in hopes of triggering something.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:18
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Shadoer posted:Well I believe to an extent in books it's also being debated right now with the whole Hugo Award Controversy. im not quite sure what youre striking at here but tbh a review somehow eliding over Fury Road's treatment of women would strike me as a glaring omission
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Jun 28, 2015 07:18
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Oh, I see. So, since Baldwin only has short, violent outbursts he's safe from being doxxed and having his bank account hijacked, but if he grumbles continuously for a few weeks he's fair game. Nobody has condoned the doxxing, they're just putting context into the backlash he suffered. Again it wasn't him coming to a woman's aid that set people against him.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:19
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Scrub-Niggurath posted:This may be the case, I genuinely don't know those other text games, but it's not the same as what I was asking about. There's a difference between 'why are these particular games getting media attention over these more deserving games?', which is a totally valid question to ask, and 'they pressured the media not to cover this particular game, which would have been covered otherwise', which seems a little ridiculous. Alright you have me there. With the amount of games being produced it's hard to say that people are making a concerted effort to ignore games based on political content. The most I can do is say promote over others due to political content. Dr. Fishopolis posted:So, do you think that reviewers who mention Fury Road's portrayal of women should be specifically outlining their criteria for review at the front of the article? Is it unfair of these reviewers to be talking about how women are portrayed in action movies, instead of dramatic structure, VFX or cinematography? No and I'm not asking game reviewers to do it either. At the same time, if you are going to praise a game because you think it's portrayal of group X is really good then you should write it in the review. Writing in a review your reasons for giving it the score you do is perfectly reasonable.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:19
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Shadoer posted:Alright you have me there. With the amount of games being produced it's hard to say that people are making a concerted effort to ignore games based on political content. The most I can do is say promote over others due to political content. how is this censorship? isn't this actually free speech, to promote things that you like before things you dislike, rather than an expectation of treating everything objectively and neutrally? Shadoer posted:No and I'm not asking game reviewers to do it either. At the same time, if you are going to praise a game because you think it's portrayal of group X is really good then you should write it in the review. wouldn't it completely defeat the purpose of political activism in a review, if you never mention your political activism? who would do this?
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Jun 28, 2015 07:20
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Shadoer posted:Alright you have me there. With the amount of games being produced it's hard to say that people are making a concerted effort to ignore games based on political content. The most I can do is say promote over others due to political content. well yes that's a problem with editorial control of reporting thats been around since the inception of print media. video games journalism is not somehow special in this regard. there's a reason walter lippman called the position of editor "the most important office held by man since the pope stopped anointing kings".
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Jun 28, 2015 07:22
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Shadoer posted:No and I'm not asking game reviewers to do it either. At the same time, if you are going to praise a game because you think it's portrayal of group X is really good then you should write it in the review. That all seems reasonable, but now I'm completely confused by what it is that you want, what you think the problem with gaming journalism is and what point you're trying to make by supporting this whole gamergate thing. edit: Shadoer posted:Alright you have me there. With the amount of games being produced it's hard to say that people are making a concerted effort to ignore games based on political content. The most I can do is say promote over others due to political content. If something is a political hotbutton, doesn't it make sense that it would get more press attention? We seem to agree that minorities, including women, are underrepresented in gaming and that it's a good thing when games include them in a positive way that makes sense for the game. So why shouldn't reviewers pay special attention and applaud the industry when that happens? Dr. Fishopolis fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 07:22
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Literally The Worst posted:"Your choices" meaning if you knew where the secret passage was because you had already finished the game or else walked along every wall hitting interact in hopes of triggering something. No, more you weren't stopping to read every scrap of information and you were doing the sensible thing of trying to explore the house first. Popular Thug Drink posted:how is this censorship? isn't this actually free speech, to promote things that you like before things you dislike, rather than an expectation of treating everything objectively and neutrally? paranoid randroid posted:im not quite sure what youre striking at here but tbh a review somehow eliding over Fury Road's treatment of women would strike me as a glaring omission Yes it's free speech. However they have an ethical responsibility to say that it's the case. If you want to give something a good review because it meshes with your politics, you should say it. Just as if you are friends with the game dev, somewhere in there it should be mentioned. that's the ethics in game journalism part
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Jun 28, 2015 07:24
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Oh, I see. So, since Baldwin only has short, violent outbursts he's safe from being doxxed and having his bank account hijacked, but if he grumbles continuously for a few weeks he's fair game. I don't know why me elaborating on the meltdown Phil Fish had before someone doxxed him is supposed to be me excusing him getting doxxed and defending Baldwin who I never mentioned.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:24
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Shadoer posted:No, more you weren't stopping to read every scrap of information and you were doing the sensible thing of trying to explore the house first. what are you checking the roof for leaks and you stumbled across the endgame? the point of the game was to explore the notes. that was the entire narrative vehicle "if you don't play this game as the developers obviously intended, then the plot doesn't make any sense at all 0/10" Shadoer posted:Yes it's free speech. However they have an ethical responsibility to say that it's the case. who would give a review based on their political ideology and then not devote one word to that political ideology in the body of the review? boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 07:25
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Shadoer posted:Yes it's free speech. However they have an ethical responsibility to say that it's the case. so what youre asking is that the reviewer say something to the effect of "i approve of the portrayal of women in Fury Road because i am subjectively predisposed to favor portrayals of women like Fury Road's" that seems redundant
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Jun 28, 2015 07:26
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The Droid posted:Out of curiosity/desire for context, what do you mean by "treat those things like actual art"? Accepting that cultural criticism is a thing that happens without moaning about cultural marxist conspiracies I think. I mean, this is a similar crowd to the ones that expended a lot of energy 10+ years ago in discussions on how to bring games into mainstream acceptance. One way of doing it seemed to be to "treat games as art" the same way as books and movies are treated as art; i.e. not seen as toys for children, not having to fear being viewed as an adult child for discussing them outside your circle of nerdy friends, etc. However they learned that, to their dismay, all those good things also came with things they did not account for, i.e. critical scrutiny about things they hadn't thought of being a problem before. And it's not just minority representation and women that gamers react viscerally to, I've seen gamers fly off the handle over people analysing COD4 as an anti-war game. Not that moviegoers don't also get annoyed with people for insisting that Jurassic Park is really a narrative about parental abuse or whatever or that the dinosaurs in them are metaphors for mental illnesses, but the anti-intellectualism outside of games don't seem to be as visceral to me. Did that make anything clearer to you in any way? Shadoer posted:f you want to give something a good review because it meshes with your politics, you should say it. Just as if you are friends with the game dev, somewhere in there it should be mentioned. that's the ethics in game journalism part This kind of ethics is also rare in reviews of media totally unrelated to games though. Should games journalism be a special case? murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 07:26
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paranoid randroid posted:well yes that's a problem with editorial control of reporting thats been around since the inception of print media. video games journalism is not somehow special in this regard. there's a reason walter lippman called the position of editor "the most important office held by man since the pope stopped anointing kings". Your right and it's not. That why bringing it to at least the standards of other major publications isn't a bad part of gamergate. Dr. Fishopolis posted:That all seems reasonable, but now I'm completely confused by what it is that you want, what you think the problem with gaming journalism is and what point you're trying to make by supporting this whole gamergate thing. My point is honesty. Like look if you are going to shill out for something because it meshes with your politics, then say so. It's part of the ethics part. Now this in itself, honestly isn't enough for me to constantly support gamergate the way I have, that would be the part about freedom of speech and that I'd rather causes be pushed and advocated by creating art rather than pushing everyone else s art to change to fit their views which is another part of the debate.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:28
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Shadoer posted:My point is honesty. Like look if you are going to shill out for something because it meshes with your politics, then say so. i'm still not sure who you believe is out there delivering poltically charged reviews without ever mentioning their personal politics in relation to the thing they're reviewing generally people who really care about a thing will mention that thing when they are given a completely approprate and germane opportunity to talk about thing boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 07:29
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The Droid posted:I don't know why me elaborating on the meltdown Phil Fish had before someone doxxed him is supposed to be me excusing him getting doxxed and defending Baldwin who I never mentioned. I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, I'm just having trouble wrapping my brain around a community that would doxx guy and try to ruin his career for being grumpy and hostile on twitter. Reading that stuff, I don't blame him at all for walking away and doing something else with his life, which is sad because I rather liked Fez.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:30
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Popular Thug Drink posted:what are you checking the roof for leaks and you stumbled across the endgame? the point of the game was to explore the notes. that was the entire narrative vehicle Again that's why I kept saying suspicious as opposed to OMFG here's my holy grail of proof. Popular Thug Drink posted:who would give a review based on their political ideology and then not devote one word to that political ideology in the body of the review? Arguably that's been part of the debate of The Witcher that was going on, although a few people did state that their critique of it was due to it having only white people and women in rather revealing outfits. Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm still not sure who you believe is out there delivering poltically charged reviews without ever mentioning their personal politics in relation to the thing they're reviewing Alright actually I have to admit, you have a point. Really I should have stated it as a positive bonus to certain games as opposed to docking them without saying why.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:32
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murphyslaw posted:Accepting that cultural criticism is a thing that happens without moaning about cultural marxist conspiracies I think. I think some of the backlash against these attempts at analysis is because many of them are so superficial that it comes across as the person having never actually played or even watched the game for any significant length of time. For instance, people praising Just Cause 3 for having a Hispanic/Mediterranean protagonist as if the devs at Avalanche had finally come around when he is literally the same character from the past two games. And to further with a movie critique analogy, people praising hacks like David Cage because his storygames are "ambitious" is like people praising the snorefest that is Boyhood because "It took twelve years to make! Wow!!!!"
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Jun 28, 2015 07:32
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Shadoer posted:Your right and it's not. That why bringing it to at least the standards of other major publications isn't a bad part of gamergate. If the reviewer's politics matched your own would you still be calling for disclosure?
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Jun 28, 2015 07:33
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Shadoer posted:Again that's why I kept saying suspicious as opposed to OMFG here's my holy grail of proof. i thought you were saying the universal acclaim was suspicious, not the fact that it's one of the many many many games that can be beaten quickly if you know the exact sequence of steps to take in order to beat it quickly Shadoer posted:Arguably that's been part of the debate of The Witcher that was going on, although a few people did state that their critique of it was due to it having only white people and women in rather revealing outfits. how is it possible to criticize a game for not being racially diverse without also indicating that you personally believe there should be more racial diversity in games? The Droid posted:And to further with a movie critique analogy, people praising hacks like David Cage because his storygames are "ambitious" is like people praising the snorefest that is Boyhood because "It took twelve years to make! Wow!!!!" this is the guy who made indigo prophecy, right? cause that game seemed real cool and then i played the demo and uh yeah no thanks
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Jun 28, 2015 07:34
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i guess im just not seeing the big reveal here. reviewing a piece of media seems like it should be an inherently subjective exercise. is liking a game more for its message than its gameplay really much different from liking a movie for its cinematography than its plot?
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Jun 28, 2015 07:35
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Jesus Horse posted:If the reviewer's politics matched your own would you still be calling for disclosure? Yes Popular Thug Drink posted:i thought you were saying the universal acclaim was suspicious, not the fact that it's one of the many many many games that can be beaten quickly if you know the exact sequence of steps to take in order to beat it quickly Not really, again if you just do a simple exploration of the house first you'll beat it. Although I will concede that the intent of the game was for everyone to read the notes first, it's just counter intuitive to some play styles. Popular Thug Drink posted:how is it possible to criticize a game for not being racially diverse without also indicating that you personally believe there should be more racial diversity in games? I have already conceded this point.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:36
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Shadoer posted:My point is honesty. Like look if you are going to shill out for something because it meshes with your politics, then say so. It's part of the ethics part. Can you link to a review that exemplifies the problem you're seeing? I'm honestly having a hard time understanding the nuance here as I haven't really read a game review that I felt was shilling a game to make a political point. Also, who exactly do you believe is pushing artists to change their product to fit a political viewpoint and why? When customers post on forums about being offended by a game, is that what you're referring to?
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Jun 28, 2015 07:36
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The Droid posted:I think some of the backlash against these attempts at analysis is because many of them are so superficial that it comes across as the person having never actually played or even watched the game for any significant length of time. For instance, people praising Just Cause 3 for having a Hispanic/Mediterranean protagonist as if the devs at Avalanche had finally come around when he is literally the same character from the past two games. I agree that that kind of stuff is tedious and boring and I don't read much of any of it, but is the reaction to it that we've been seeing a valid one?
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Jun 28, 2015 07:36
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Shadoer posted:Not really, again if you just do a simple exploration of the house first you'll beat it. Although I will concede that the intent of the game was for everyone to read the notes first, it's just counter intuitive to some play styles. yeah i guess if you roleplay the game as a home inspector who wants to make sure the roof joists are in order then it wouldn't be supportive of your playstyle but you do have to beeline to one specific spot without backing up or exploring anything else at all, which still isn't a flaw in the game as the majority of games can be speedrun The Droid posted:I think some of the backlash against these attempts at analysis is because many of them are so superficial that it comes across as the person having never actually played or even watched the game for any significant length of time. For instance, people praising Just Cause 3 for having a Hispanic/Mediterranean protagonist as if the devs at Avalanche had finally come around when he is literally the same character from the past two games. to be fair i think this is part of a general overabundance of useless words on the internet because it's so cheap to pay people to put words on the internet, and not because of some smaller movement in games journalism like i've posted dozens of pages itt for my own amusement in my free time, you can pay a grad student fifty bucks to get a fifteen page critical analysis on rat turds by end of business today like part of what differentiates gg/agg folks from other folks on the periphery is a greater ability to identify and filter out useless words and not incorporate them into your worldview. like the entire world is shrouded in people's words and opinions, everyone has a responsibility to identify those that matter and discard those that don't boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 07:38
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Popular Thug Drink posted:
Yeah, people got real excited about Beyond Two Souls because it had Gary Oldman and Ellen page and then a random Native American ranch terrorized by ancient ghosts happens which has no bearing on the plot other than maybe some character development followed by the Secret Underwater Not-Chinese Ghost Research Facility happens.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:39
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Shadoer posted:Yes Do you have an example of that occurring?
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Jun 28, 2015 07:40
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Can you link to a review that exemplifies the problem you're seeing? I'm honestly having a hard time understanding the nuance here as I haven't really read a game review that I felt was shilling a game to make a political point. Again I've conceded this point, I'm for the most part wrong. Any example I could cite would be the exception as opposed to the rule. Dr. Fishopolis posted:Also, who exactly[do you believe is pushing artists to change their product to fit a political viewpoint and why? When customers post on forums about being offended by a game, is that what you're referring to? I believe that would be the whole moment refereed to as "social justice warriors" to one degree or another. Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah i guess if you roleplay the game as a home inspector who wants to make sure the roof joists are in order then it wouldn't be supportive of your playstyle but you do have to beeline to one specific spot without backing up or exploring anything else at all For something I said was "suspicious" but fully admit that there are a bunch of reasonable and likely explanations, you are really pushing this. Point is the length of the game could be dramatically shortened by reasonable luck, intuition, or playstyle. You are right in the sense that a few minutes requires a game guide, but wrong in the sense that a person couldn't reasonably pass it in 15-30 minutes of thumbing around.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:43
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murphyslaw posted:I agree that that kind of stuff is tedious and boring and I don't read much of any of it, but is the reaction to it that we've been seeing a valid one? Eh, part of it is the /pol/ types freaking out like they usually do and another part of it are people who feel fed up with the scene responsible for this tripe. Of course there's overlap between all of these groups so trying to pin things down to one particular perspective is not really possible. Doxxing and harassing people is not a valid reaction to these things, by either 'side', of course.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:44
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What do u think about the Stanley parable? I thought it was a pretty good game.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:45
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Jesus Horse posted:What do u think about the Stanley parable? I thought it was a pretty good game. i recently played it and i thought it was about as good as gone home, they complement each other as thoughtful walking simulators stanley parable was more entertaining than gone home, but gone home had much better atmosphere and immersion. with stanley parabale i was always aware i was playing a game, which was exactly the point of it, but a little too on the nose
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Jun 28, 2015 07:46
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The Droid posted:I think some of the backlash against these attempts at analysis is because many of them are so superficial that it comes across as the person having never actually played or even watched the game for any significant length of time. For instance, people praising Just Cause 3 for having a Hispanic/Mediterranean protagonist as if the devs at Avalanche had finally come around when he is literally the same character from the past two games. I thought Boyhood was a shambles of a movie, and I hated the reviews that glossed over the structure and pacing problems in favor of praising the process of making it. A lot of people felt the same way. It was a topic of conversation for a while among people who like and talk about movies. Then a bunch of people on the imdb forums got together and posted Richard Linklater's personal address, social security and credit card numbers, and sent death and rape threats to his wife and daughter. wait i'm remembering that wrong no actually nothing happened because it was just a movie.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:47
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Shadoer posted:Again I've conceded this point, I'm for the most part wrong. Any example I could cite would be the exception as opposed to the rule. Have you actually played or watched the game? Any reasonable amount of "thumbing around" would also mean you run into the multiple notes that indicate you shouldn't go up there yet. The developers left the option open, yes, but they gave a fair amount of warning.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:48
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Jack Gladney posted:Here's the Oxford English Dictionary on "trope": Yes, tropes are tools. That is all they are. A trope is the shiny knew stainless steel hammer while a cliche is a rusty iron one. A tool in and of itself cannot be offensive. And you cannot avoid tropes. Everything good ever written contains many, many tropes. In and of itself, The 'Damsel in Distress' trope is neither misogynistic or not misogynistic. You need to analyze the context and content of the work. Analyzing the tool is not productive, because it is just that, a tool. If you want to criticize the trope, you are essentially saying you don't like to see women in danger at all. Or taking it a step further, you feel the trope is completely sexist no matter the content. Which means everything that contains this trope is sexist. There is no differentiation in the story structures, characterization and nuance is completely lost. It is a world of absolutes, no shades of grey. Which is fine, but it isn't a guideline that someone who creates something is ever going to use. Nor is it a useful critique, because you are essentially ignoring all content in favor of boiling it down so much the bridge between a trope and a cliche, two different things, become mixed together. In the example I used before, if you do this, you are saying Ciri and Princess Peach from Mario NES are the exact same thing and are both problematic. This is obviously not true. And some tropes are difficult to use in this day and age or are no longer relevant to contemporary creative works. But these are typically uncommon, and the 'Damsel in Distress' Trope is not one of them. This goes for other tropes as well. If you say 'x trope is offensive', then every single thing in that trope is offensive no matter the quality or content.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:49
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i recently played it and i thought it was about as good as gone home, they complement each other as thoughtful walking simulators But I guess tsp rates pretty low on the speed run metric
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Jun 28, 2015 07:50
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Dapper Dan posted:The 'Black Man is Rabid' trope is neither racist or not racist. You need to analyze the context and content of the work. Analyzing the tool is not productive, because it is just that, a tool. If you want to criticize the trope, you are essentially saying you don't like to see black men as antagonists at all. Or taking it a step further, you feel the trope is completely racist no matter the content. Which means everything that contains this trope is racist. There is no differentiation in the story structures, characterization and nuance is completely lost.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:51
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Shadoer posted:I believe that would be the whole moment refereed to as "social justice warriors" to one degree or another. Can you name any public figures or leaders who identify as "social justice warriors"? Do they have forums or a hashtag or something? What does the group stand for and how are they affecting gaming? I'm not being a dick, I hear the term a lot but I have no idea what the criteria for this group is supposed to be.
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Jun 28, 2015 07:51
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Jesus Horse posted:But I guess tsp rates pretty low on the speed run metric the first time i played it i got the death ending in about 1:30, where you jump to your demise to spite the narrator also you can beat the game by closing the door to your office, so i guess that means tsp is a worse game than gone home
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Jun 28, 2015 07:52
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paranoid randroid posted:i guess im just not seeing the big reveal here. reviewing a piece of media seems like it should be an inherently subjective exercise. is liking a game more for its message than its gameplay really much different from liking a movie for its cinematography than its plot? movie critics dont normally call for a filmmakers head because they had to see a D cup or someone getting their head lopped off, at least not the ones ive read. ill also say putting movies on the same level as games ignores the whole user input thing
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Jun 28, 2015 07:52
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