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NutritiousSnack posted:Comic Book Code of Authority and the DnD satanic panic actually killed both of those mediums, so yeah it totally was up to chance their friend. Ah, yes, I remember how poorly DnD 3.x sold.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:17
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Zombywuf posted:A gamer is someone who calls themselves a gamer. Much like a person can watch Star Trek without being a Trekkie, you become a Trekkie when you call yourself one. Some people post on SA and call themselves goons, others don't define themselves by it. Can you point to something and call it "Goon Culture"? does Goon culture like Anime? Is it misogynist, feminist, pro-war, anti-war, or other things entirely? Okay, so it's utterly meaningless, and anyone talking about 'gamer culture' is talking about something meaningless. Cool. NutritiousSnack posted:
See, right here I think you've put your finger on part of the problem. Cineophile is so broad you can't say anything about the group. Same thing for 'nerd', you can just make very vague generalizations. When you get into something like 'horror films' or 'punk music', you're not talking about something equivalent to games, but a subset of games. Like a horror game fan or a JRPG fan. And even then, there's nothing you can actually say that's true about that culture except in broad, statistical terms. You can talk about the demographics--like the way you can say GGers are mostly white men. Other than that, there's nothing that coherent in the 'culture' you can talk about until you get even more specific, and, like, talk about San Francisco punk culture or Japanese horror films. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 12:17
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Obdicut posted:Can you state clearly what you think people should be debating? Ultimately it can be boiled down to this: the origins of GamerGate are unimportant because they are never going to be proven. It predates Quinn but whether that has to do with continued anger over the increased diversity of games (and possibly a decrease in quality) and/or women in it or continued hatred and animosity between the gaming press and it's core audience, for either petty or justified reasons but that is going to depend way too much in what you want to see. What can actually be discussed without just repeating the same poo poo over and over is actually more important. Is what Gamer Gate is saying even true? Is there a sexist/racist gaming culture? Why the gently caress is Gamer Gate still a goddamn thing? How has discourse fallen to this level and what does this mean for online discourse (which is the biggest) and activism?
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Jun 30, 2015 12:19
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Panzeh posted:I find it hard to take seriously someone who thought the D&D satanic panic killed that medium, because it's hardly dead, and the Comic Book Code is dead and there's really no way for it to come back in this day and age. Comic Book Code killed the industry and doomed it to irrelevance and nothing but kid's cape books until the 80s, and quite frankly even now. The big two are nothing but IP farms and the least profitable arm the superhero phenomena.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:25
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NutritiousSnack posted:
I don't know what GamerGate is saying, except "Games journalism ought to be better!/SJWs are ruining our culture!" depending which face of Janus you want to look at. The first is quixotic and pointless, the second is untrue. If they're saying something else, let me know. quote:Is there a sexist/racist gaming culture? There isn't a gaming culture. There's a lot of sexism and racism in games, most of it consistent with the sexism and racism in our society in general. I don't think gaming is much more sexist or racist than movies or TV or anything else. quote:Why the gently caress is Gamer Gate still a goddamn thing? Quixotic fights, by definition, will never end, and a lot of people are really upset about the idea of games changing, is what it seems like to me. quote:How has discourse fallen to this level and what does this mean for online discourse (which is the biggest) and activism? I have no idea what you mean by online discourse being the biggest, or what activism you're referring to, or what you mean by discourse having fallen. If what you mean is 'why do people doxx other people' I don't have a good answer for that, it's super-creepy to me.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:25
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Obdicut posted:Try talking to me, and not to other people, especially while decrying that this is just two sides bashing each other, then. And even then, it doesn't matter: you said 'people against gamergate' blah blah blah. I'm against gamergate. I think it's a pointless, stupid, Quixotic-without-the-romance thing that very obviously kicked off from an ugly place and is embarrassing for anyone involved in it. Yet what you said about people against gamergate isn't true about me, at all. Except you were talking about gamergate in general terms back there when you said we all need to rethink our view of things. Also if you think it's stupid and pointless, why are you posting here? Obdicut posted:You haven't laid this out at all, no. I have no idea what other sorts of journalism you're comparing it to--book reviews or something? I dunno. Again, games journalism is about a product, first and foremost. It is 'Should you buy this, what it is like, what is playing it like'. Where it is more than that, where it delves into 'where is this placed in our cultural milieu' or 'what does this game say about the audience' is exactly where GGers lose their poo poo and hate on journalism and want journalists to shut up. That's part of the weird dichotomy here: the anger against games journalists for actually being cultural critics, and not just concentrating on the product. To be fair to both of us, our longer posts on these points are probably somewhere pages back before. The thread moves ridiculously fast so we probably missed each others more expansive arguments on this point. Obdicut posted:I'm legit confused by what anyone means when they say 'gamer' or 'gamer culture'. As I've said, I play a ton of games, I've been in game development, i think some games are absolutely awesome, brilliant experiences. The idea of 'gamer culture' still makes no sense to me, and the only way it appears to me as a defensive label. If you can give me some other definition of 'gamer' that fits with the way people actually self-identify, that'd be cool. I believe it's along the lines of "chan culture" or "goon culture". When people hang out long enough together, some cultural norms develop. Obdicut posted:Please do yourself a favor and don't try to analyze the civil rights movement, for the love of god. Really? While definitely violence factored into the Civil Rights movement, segregation ended because people decided it was the morally right thing to do not because people were afraid that "Helter Skelter" was the alternative.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:26
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NutritiousSnack posted:Comic Book Code killed the industry and doomed it to irrelevance and nothing but kid's cape books until the 80s, and quite frankly even now. The big two are nothing but IP farms and the least profitable arm the superhero phenomena. That's a huge assumption- the industry did very well selling kid's cape books until kids had other media, and that was in the 80s when comics weren't like that any more, and it was a far more gradual change than you suggest. The industry became quite a bit smaller in terms of comic books when it had to sell to adults, probably for a lot of reasons that had nothing to do with the legacy of the code. Most print media is doing a lot less well than it used to.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:30
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Obdicut posted:Have you heard of the Stonewall riots The Stonewall riots did not lead the massive leap and popularity of the gay rights movement starting less than a decade ago, it's an incident separated by decades to this current huge cultural shift. It's like crediting John Brown instead of Malcom X. Please try again. EDIT: Also Sad Puppies is literally dealing with Hugo awards and got big this year. So yes "reader gate" is a thing and it was a big one. NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 12:32
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Shadoer posted:Except you were talking about gamergate in general terms back there when you said we all need to rethink our view of things. No I was actually talking to you, in particular. Really. Go check. quote:To be fair to both of us, our longer posts on these points are probably somewhere pages back before. The thread moves ridiculously fast so we probably missed each others more expansive arguments on this point. Nope, you haven't actually made one. quote:I believe it's along the lines of "chan culture" or "goon culture". When people hang out long enough together, some cultural norms develop. Gamers don't hang out with each other. quote:Really? While definitely violence factored into the Civil Rights movement, segregation ended because people decided it was the morally right thing to do not because people were afraid that "Helter Skelter" was the alternative. Yeah, as I said, please don't try to analyze the civil rights movement. Are you American, by the way? I know English isn't your first language, I just want to assess what level of ignorance you're working from here. Obviously the false dichotomy you're presenting (either morally right choice or people afraid of Helter Skelter) is untrue--for someone who tries to lambaste others for logical fallacies you sure are fond of 'em--but segregation ended for a complex milieu of reasons, including the fact that it was leading to ongoing violence. Saying it ended because 'people' decided it was the morally right thing to do is bizarrely simplistic to the point where I wonder whey you'd think that it would be in the least possible to sum up a complex subject in a single sentence like that. NutritiousSnack posted:The Stonewall riots did not lead the massive leap and popularity of the gay rights movement starting less than a decade ago, it's an incident separated by decades to this current huge cultural shift. It's like crediting John Brown instead of Malcom X. Please try again. The Stonewall Riots led to the outness and public facing of gay groups across the nation. The popularity of the gay rights movement did not start less than a decade ago. If you're talking about public acceptance of gay people, and why that happened, it's mostly because gay people began living openly, even though they faced violence, and fighting back against it, a la the Stonewall Riots. To put it another way, violence is a part of every civil rights movement, from unions to segregation to gay rights, because violence is used against those movements. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 12:35
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Obdicut posted:Gamers don't hang out with each other. 
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Jun 30, 2015 12:37
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Okay. What percentage of gamers is that? NutritiousSnack posted:
I'm sorry, I don't know what this is or what it's about. I don't think you really read or understood my post on book reviews. The Hugo Awards are not book reviews.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:41
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Obdicut posted:The Stonewall Riots led to the outness and public facing of gay groups across the nation. The popularity of the gay rights movement did not start less than a decade ago. If you're talking about public acceptance of gay people, and why that happened, it's mostly because gay people began living openly, even though they faced violence, and fighting back against it, a la the Stonewall Riots. To put it another way, violence is a part of every civil rights movement, from unions to segregation to gay rights, because violence is used against those movements. That was not was argued whatsoever. The idea was a radicalized alternate that threatened other consequences if mainstream America didn't come to the table of these movements was the reason for their success. That is not the case with the modern gay rights movement.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:41
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Obdicut posted:Okay, so it's utterly meaningless, and anyone talking about 'gamer culture' is talking about something meaningless. Cool. If I said "American culture is poo poo because rednecks" do you think people would be upset with me? Do you think it would be reasonable for people to be upset with me?
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Jun 30, 2015 12:43
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Obdicut posted:Okay. What percentage of gamers is that? Obdicut posted:I'm sorry, I don't know what this is or what it's about. I don't think you really read or understood my post on book reviews. The Hugo Awards are not book reviews. I think awards and reviews are deeply interrelated, and that's this an extremely common and logical belief.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:47
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Zombywuf posted:If I said "American culture is poo poo because rednecks" do you think people would be upset with me? Do you think it would be reasonable for people to be upset with me? Yes, or rather, I would think that was a dumb statement and it was okay for people to say it was dumb. If you said "American culture is still way racist" then I think that you'd said something trivially true but wonder why you said it. NutritiousSnack posted:That was not was argued whatsoever. The idea was a radicalized alternate that threatened other consequences if mainstream America didn't come to the table of these movements was the reason for their success. That is not the case with the modern gay rights movement. I don't know what you mean by 'table of these movements' but that gay people weren't just going to let themselves get bashed and were going to fight back is definitely part of what made mainstream America actually have to pay attention to them rather than just ignoring the issue as they had. NutritiousSnack posted:About the same as any modern counter culture group from 'hacker culture' to once again 'punk music fans' Okay, I guess you missed that I don't think that those are coherent cultures that you can say anything meaningful about either. quote:I think awards and reviews are deeply interrelated, and that's this an extremely common and logical belief. Okay, then again, I think you missed that my point was that I don't think book reviews (and, by your corollary, awards) are a very important thing, and I think people getting upset about them would be weird unless there was something deeply strange going on. Again, I don't know what you're talking about with the Hugo awards thing so if they gave the award to some Gor book or something let me know. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 12:48
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Obdicut posted:I don't know what you mean by 'table of these movements' but that gay people weren't just going to let themselves get bashed and were going to fight back is definitely part of what made mainstream America actually have to pay attention to them rather than just ignoring the issue as they had. murphyslaw posted:You kind of display some disquieting lack of knowledge about civil rights struggles with this post. With these civil rights campaigns, parallel to the non-violent crowd, you'd have a pro-violence faction that the non-violent guys could direct the majority's attention to and go "see that? If you don't concede to our demands, this is what you will get". Remember Malcolm X? Even with this dynamic, many riots and violent occurrences were blamed on MLK and his supporters. Civil rights were not won by being quiet and nice, but by being quieter and nicer than the radical alternative. This is was the idea advanced Shorder was arguing against.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:50
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NutritiousSnack posted:This is was the idea advanced Shorder was arguing against. Yeah, that's very true for the civil rights movement as it applied to black people. It's not the complete story, but it's a large part of it. Edit: Also the way that civil rights for black people and gay people advanced are p. different.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:51
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Zombywuf posted:If I said "American culture is poo poo because rednecks" do you think people would be upset with me? Do you think it would be reasonable for people to be upset with me? No and no.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:52
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Obdicut posted:Yeah, that's very true for the civil rights movement as it applied to black people. It's not the complete story, but it's a large part of it. He was making a blanket statement outside of the Civil Rights Movement for all civil rights movements as an example. Hence why I brought up the gay rights movement. Obdicut posted:Okay, I guess you missed that I don't think that those are coherent cultures that you can say anything meaningful about either. Given that most people and experts widely disagree with this, I'm actually wondering why outside of "interests are too broad" NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 12:54
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NutritiousSnack posted:He was making a blanket statement outside of the Civil Rights Movement for all civil rights movements as an example. Hence why I brought up the gay rights movement. Okay, well, again, it's true in a different way for the gay civil rights movement: that gay people were willing to use violence to fight the violence against them is part of what forced mainstream America to actually pay attention. Glad you agree Shadoer is wrong about the Civil Rights Movement as it applied to black people though, that's cool. NutritiousSnack posted:
Show me most people and experts disagreeing with this, please. or say something coherent about punk culture. Note: it is not even true to say that people in punk culture like punk rock.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:57
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Obdicut posted:Yes, or rather, I would think that was a dumb statement and it was okay for people to say it was dumb. If you said "American culture is still way racist" then I think that you'd said something trivially true but wonder why you said it. Ok, what if I said, "America doesn't have to be your audience, America is over?" I'm pretty sure that if I said that to a wide enough audience I wouldn't be able to move for abuse. Or maybe you're just saying that gamer culture is racist? I find that to be a remarkably myopic statement, centred on a US viewpoint that fails to take into account the fact that a lot of the groups who consider games to be a big part of their identity, are not white Americans.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:59
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Zombywuf posted:Ok, what if I said, "America doesn't have to be your audience, America is over?" That would make zero sense. quote:I'm pretty sure that if I said that to a wide enough audience I wouldn't be able to move for abuse. I think people would just ask what the hell you meant, because it's a nonsensical statement. I mean, it makes sense to say that America doesn't have to be your audience, that's very true. Also, I think one thing that should be obvious is that I don't think 'American culture' and 'gamer culture' are the same sort of 'culture' too. You don't think they're similar, do you? quote:Or maybe you're just saying that gamer culture is racist? I find that to be a remarkably myopic statement, centred on a US viewpoint that fails to take into account the fact that a lot of the groups who consider games to be a big part of their identity, are not white Americans. Okay, which are the cultures out there that aren't racist? Those would be cool to know about. I don't think white Americans have a lockdown on racism. My basic premise, which I said awhile ago, is that games are about as racist as the culture at large. This would be true no matter where you are.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:02
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Obdicut posted:Okay, well, again, it's true in a different way for the gay civil rights movement: That's not what was stated though, once again. It was that a radical parallel that used violence as a negotiation tactic not a means of defense.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:03
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NutritiousSnack posted:That's not what was stated though, once again. It was that a radical parallel that used violence as a negotiation tactic not a means of defense. Okay, cool. I disagree that in every civil rights movement that violence is a 'negotiation tactic'--in fact, I disagree that it was a 'tactic' in the Civil Rights Movement, however, it was also not a 'means of defense' as you're characterizing it for gay people in their fight for civil rights. I am really unsure why we're talking about this, too.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:05
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Obdicut posted:That would make zero sense. It doesn't have to make sense, "America is over" would be jumped on, if you don't see this than I think we've found the source of your confusion.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:08
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Zombywuf posted:It doesn't have to make sense, "America is over" would be jumped on, if you don't see this than I think we've found the source of your confusion. Okay, well I agree it would get jumped on. Can you address the rest of what I said now? Especially what non-racist cultures there are out there.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:10
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Obdicut posted:Show me most people and experts disagreeing with this, please. I can show a list of sociology professors having papers stating this for Hackers and Punk right now.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:10
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Obdicut posted:I am really unsure why we're talking about this, too. You picked a side. Now you have to go through all this agonizing nuance just to come out either even more radicalized or finally realizing that picking a side was a bad idea.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:11
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Obdicut posted:Okay, well I agree it would get jumped on. Can you address the rest of what I said now? Especially what non-racist cultures there are out there. Okay. Obdicut posted:My basic premise, which I said awhile ago, is that games are about as racist as the culture at large. This would be true no matter where you are. This is an empty statement. Games are devoid of any content. They are all exactly as racist as anything else. Or perhaps you mean they perfectly reflect the culture they were created in, which is why GTA 5 is 96% white characters and mostly centred on sectarian violence, and Mario is very pale Japanese man.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:15
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NutritiousSnack posted:I can show a list of sociology professors having papers stating this for Hackers and Punk right now.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:15
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NutritiousSnack posted:I can show a list of sociology professors having papers stating this for Hackers and Punk right now. I am a for real sociologist, like really. Sociology papers do not tend to make generalizations about entire groups, they are far more into analyzing the nuance of forces within a culture. Go ahead and cite me some papers though, I'm always down for some academic reading.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:17
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Zombywuf posted:Okay. Hey, I don't know if you noticed but you didn't cite these non-racist cultures. quote:This is an empty statement. Games are devoid of any content. They are all exactly as racist as anything else. Or perhaps you mean they perfectly reflect the culture they were created in, which is why GTA 5 is 96% white characters and mostly centred on sectarian violence, and Mario is very pale Japanese man. I didn't say that they were exactly as racist as anything else. That's why the word 'about' is in there, which means something different from 'exactly'. I'm not sure why you're citing individual games now, either. Is there something about the statement that games tend to reflect the racism in the culture they come from that seems like a wild claim to you, and if so, what is it?
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Jun 30, 2015 13:19
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Zombywuf posted:This is an empty statement. Games are devoid of any content. They are all exactly as racist as anything else. Or perhaps you mean they perfectly reflect the culture they were created in, which is why GTA 5 is 96% white characters and mostly centred on sectarian violence, and Mario is very pale Japanese man.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:19
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Obdicut posted:No I was actually talking to you, in particular. Really. Go check. Alright I misunderstood. I still think I made a valid overall point though. Obdicut posted:Nope, you haven't actually made one. Welp I'm not going to go over my 200+ posts in this thread to find out, and I like to think you aren't sad enough to have gone through all of them to check. Either way I'm sure the topic will come back again and we can both argue the case all over again. Obdicut posted:Yeah, as I said, please don't try to analyze the civil rights movement. Are you American, by the way? I know English isn't your first language, I just want to assess what level of ignorance you're working from here. I am not american, but I have studied the Civil Rights movement and I was using it as a general example. You are right in the sense I am over simplifying things and I'm not writing a long essay to show that violence was not effective in advancing the Civil Rights cause right now. But I suppose it's a debatable point of how much things like Rosa Parks stand and protests Martin Luther King made affected things versus events like the "Summer in the City" Still I think it's a pretty safe bet that you can advance Civil Rights without resorting to violence and other despicable tactics.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:20
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Obdicut posted:Hey, I don't know if you noticed but you didn't cite these non-racist cultures What's the least racist culture with > 1 million members? (Not using the term "culture" in a scientific way, just colloquial speech.)
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Jun 30, 2015 13:20
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Shadoer posted:Alright I misunderstood. I still think I made a valid overall point though. I bet you do. quote:Welp I'm not going to go over my 200+ posts in this thread to find out, and I like to think you aren't sad enough to have gone through all of them to check. Either way I'm sure the topic will come back again and we can both argue the case all over again. Why not just point me to the post now where you talked about how to reform games journalism. quote:I am not american, but I have studied the Civil Rights movement and I was using it as a general example. You are right in the sense I am over simplifying things and I'm not writing a long essay to show that violence was not effective in advancing the Civil Rights cause right now. But I suppose it's a debatable point of how much things like Rosa Parks stand and protests Martin Luther King made affected things versus events like the "Summer in the City" Thank you for once again walking back your hyperbole. This would not be necessary if you started out from a non-hyperbolic position. quote:Still I think it's a pretty safe bet that you can advance Civil Rights without resorting to violence and other despicable tactics. This bit makes me think you really don't understand the Civil Rights Movement at all if you're referring to black people 'resorting' to violence. Cingulate posted:Hm ... what's the least racist culture? Do you mean ethnic culture, or what would really be called a 'subculture'? If the latter, probably people who are both deaf and blind, but that's just a guess.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:25
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Obdicut posted:Is there something about the statement that games tend to reflect the racism in the culture they come from that seems like a wild claim to you, and if so, what is it? It's an empty statement so vague as to be meaningless. I referenced specific games to try and drag you away from just going "Stuff is kinda racist" as if this statement is worth anything.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:32
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Zombywuf posted:It's an empty statement so vague as to be meaningless. I referenced specific games to try and drag you away from just going "Stuff is kinda racist" as if this statement is worth anything. Okay, I'm not sure what you're asking for, then. You said: quote:Or maybe you're just saying that gamer culture is racist? I find that to be a remarkably myopic statement, centred on a US viewpoint that fails to take into account the fact that a lot of the groups who consider games to be a big part of their identity, are not white Americans. My response that gamer culture is not more racist than our culture in general. (Also I don't think gamer culture exists, but w/e, I'm just defining it as 'games and those who play them and those who make them). What is it you're asking that I haven't answered? You also haven't named these cultures that aren't racist yet, and I am totes eager to learn about them. Can you do so?
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Jun 30, 2015 13:35
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Obdicut posted:I bet you do. Yeah I do. You're point against it is that you don't share those view and you just happen to have the view that any criticism of gaming journalism and attempts to reform it as well as all the other parts of gamergate are meaningless, hollow excercises which are wastes of time. So because it's a waste of time, you want to argue and post repeatedly about how it's a waste of time. Obdicut posted:Why not just point me to the post now where you talked about how to reform games journalism. So you didn't go through 200+ posts (which at least means you aren't that sad of a human being), you just want to be a dick. As said before I'm sure the conversation will get back to that topic and I can argue it all out again. Obdicut posted:Thank you for once again walking back your hyperbole. This would not be necessary if you started out from a non-hyperbolic position. Or if you took the point for what it was instead of wanting to have a discussion of the civil rights movement. Obdicut posted:This bit makes me think you really don't understand the Civil Rights Movement at all if you're referring to black people 'resorting' to violence. Really? Cause I seem to remember an organization called the "Black Panthers" was around. Not to mention the "Nation of Islam" and their role in assassinating Malcomn X.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:38
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Obdicut posted:My response that gamer culture is not more racist than our culture in general. (Also I don't think gamer culture exists, but w/e, I'm just defining it as 'games and those who play them and those who make them). I'm wanting to know why you brought up racism. quote:You also haven't named these cultures that aren't racist yet, and I am totes eager to learn about them. Can you do so? I haven't made that claim.
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Jun 30, 2015 13:42
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