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Also to try and add a hint of complexity to stat weights, they created stat breakpoints where you'd get assault/support power boosts if you got your primary stat up to a certain point. In theory, this causes the value of a stat to be lower at certain values and higher at others, requiring more thought into itemization. This broke down for a few reasons: - Your primary stat would always give AP/SP at breakpoints. - Your non-primary stat would always give things not AP at breakpoints. AP was so insanely overvalued that there was no complexity in which stat to pump up. Also, the value of the breakpoints would go up the higher the basic stat. This meant that even with the breakpoint system, which was designed to REDUCE the value of valuable stats at certain values, THE INCREMENTAL/AVERAGE VALUE WOULD STILL INCREASE AS THE VALUE OF THE STAT ROSE. The community immediately did the math and realized that the net mathematical effect of this entire, complicated system was dick-all. Stat priorities were not altered by it at all, unless you were like a couple dozen points from a non-primary stat breakpoint with an open glyph slot that couldn't hold something that would actually give you AP/SP but could give you the non-primary stat in which case thanks to the limitations of the glyph system THERE WAS ALMOST NEVER SOMETHING ELSE YOU COULD PUT IN THAT SLOT ANYWAY.
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Jun 28, 2015 15:18
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Das Gray posted:Agreed. lol what
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Jun 28, 2015 15:20
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All so I can be 1/40th of a blob of dickheads punching the loot piņata 
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Jun 28, 2015 16:01
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This conversation gives me a weird feeling of absurd nostalgia from WoW. I learned early on that stacking spell crit, int, and mp5 on my paladin meant I could heal forever with nigh unlimited mana. Naturally, because this was vanilla WoW, all of those stats came primarily on cloth or mail gear for casters. Blizzard shoehorned paladins into primarily healing only in raid settings but then gave their plate literally every Stat in the game so that a paladin basically did nothing effectively. Thus, I would outroll or outbid (goddamm dkp) clothies on their gear and they would wine and bitch. The upside was that I typically out-healed all the other healers in my raid group so the raid leader put the kibosh on that batching reasonably quickly. Considering now that some of those same designers now work on Wildstar I'm just not surprised that this Stat garbage is the case.
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Jun 28, 2015 19:13
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Saxophone posted:This conversation gives me a weird feeling of absurd nostalgia from WoW. I learned early on that stacking spell crit, int, and mp5 on my paladin meant I could heal forever with nigh unlimited mana. Naturally, because this was vanilla WoW, all of those stats came primarily on cloth or mail gear for casters. Blizzard shoehorned paladins into primarily healing only in raid settings but then gave their plate literally every Stat in the game so that a paladin basically did nothing effectively. Thus, I would outroll or outbid (goddamm dkp) clothies on their gear and they would wine and bitch. The upside was that I typically out-healed all the other healers in my raid group so the raid leader put the kibosh on that batching reasonably quickly. Not to defend the vanilla wow stuff, but at least at the time they did it because they just didn't know any better and thought druids and paladins and shamans would actually be "hybrids" and do all of their jobs at once or some poo poo, and so would want a bit of every stat so they could be mediocre in 2-3 roles at once instead of really good at one role like everyone else. It's where "hybrid tax" came from. Wildstar's devs may have originally come up with that system, but they just plain ignored why it ended up not working well, and they never bothered to fix the problems a system like that creates even though there had been nearly a decade's worth of development on mmo stating and what does and doesn't work.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:52
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:they just plain ignored why it ended up not working well
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Jun 29, 2015 18:56
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Not to defend the vanilla wow stuff, but at least at the time they did it because they just didn't know any better and thought druids and paladins and shamans would actually be "hybrids" and do all of their jobs at once or some poo poo, and so would want a bit of every stat so they could be mediocre in 2-3 roles at once instead of really good at one role like everyone else. It's where "hybrid tax" came from. Valor had int and spirit on it and that was a warrior set. Might had agility and spirit. They had no idea wtf they were doing until BC.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:03
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Normal Adult Human posted:Valor had int and spirit on it and that was a warrior set. Might had agility and spirit. They had no idea wtf they were doing until BC. I thought spirit originally gave you HP regen in combat, so they thought tanks would want agility for dodge and spirit for HP regen, and the only reasoning I can think of for int was maybe int had spell resistance tied to it at the very start? Basically if you look deep enough in the rabbit hole you can find the reasoning for what they did, but that doesn't make it any less retarded with any sort of hindsight. Whoever was left at blizzard figured that out and that's why BC statting wasn't pants on head retarded, but Carbine never figured that part out.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:15
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:even though there had been nearly a decade's worth of development on mmo stating and what does and doesn't work. the real lesson that nobody ever learns is that gear uberness and extreme rarity and boss farming are all really bad game design tenets
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Jun 29, 2015 19:56
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Normal Adult Human posted:Valor had int and spirit on it and that was a warrior set. Might had agility and spirit. They had no idea wtf they were doing until BC. TBC wasn't much better for most hybrid classes. Enhancement Shaman didn't get decent tier gear till Sunwell's 3 bonus tier pieces. It's fun to go back and look at the clown suit I was wearing for our first KJ kill in Sunwell. Half leather, half mail with a PvP helm thrown on top. Had opportunity to pick up all the set pieces from Black Temple but none of them was worth wearing over ZA pieces.
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Jun 29, 2015 20:04
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Normal Adult Human posted:Valor had int Did it? I recall it having spirit, but I don't remember valor having Int...
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Jun 29, 2015 20:39
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Mattavist posted:Because the stats didn't do the same thing for every class. They made it so Moxie was +Crit Severity for class A and +Mana for class B. Yeah, that's my complaint. Things like +Crit Severity and +Mana are obviously secondary stats, and instead of just putting them on the gear they made things more confusing by hiding them under a name that changes depending on which class you are playing. "I need more +Mana so I should stack *looks at chart* Moxie, since I am an Engineer" is a needless complication when you could just have "I need more +Mana so I should stack +Mana."
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Jun 29, 2015 20:57
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The Moon Monster posted:All healing classes were also DPS classes though, as were all tank classes. So you still had separate pieces of gear for each role. One thing they did right that I still think WoW did wrong was there are no "Pure" classes. Everyone is a hybrid.
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Jun 29, 2015 21:13
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Did hybrid tax exist in wildstar anyways? Who am I kidding, of course it did.
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Jun 29, 2015 22:30
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Anatharon posted:Did hybrid tax exist in wildstar anyways? Less "hybrid tax" and more "all of the itemization was all over the place, who knows what they were thinking".
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Jun 29, 2015 23:26
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not to be off-topic but does "hybrid tax" still exists in WoW? Did it ever exist anyway
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Jun 29, 2015 23:30
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The D&D concept and EQ definition of a hybrid is nothing like vanilla wow or wildstar. Classes having spec choices != hybrid.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:32
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Yes, it definitely used to exist and no, they formally ditched that policy some time later.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:33
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Anatharon posted:Did hybrid tax exist in wildstar anyways? Even though every class had a damage and a support spec, no class really could operate as a hybrid, since your attack and support power were separate stats and you were limited to 8 abilities on the bar.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:37
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frajaq posted:not to be off-topic but does "hybrid tax" still exists in WoW? Did it ever exist anyway It definitely used to exist but it was removed some time ago.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:11
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Normal Adult Human posted:Valor had int and spirit on it and that was a warrior set. Might had agility and spirit. They had no idea wtf they were doing until BC.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:23
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https://twitter.com/mikehiggins3000/status/614569062694277120 https://twitter.com/Orbishdev/status/614699221975851008 farewell sweet prince
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Jun 30, 2015 00:56
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noELrunes posted:https://twitter.com/mikehiggins3000/status/614569062694277120 Maybe they are depending on WS to enter metamorphosis on its own and emerge as a beautiful F2P game. Who needs devs or updates.
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Jun 30, 2015 01:05
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I think people forget that hybrid tax was an actual in game thing. As in, original everquest hybrids required 15% more exp to level than non-hybrids. In terms of Vanilla WoW, there were times when you could play a true hybrid. From personal experience, 1.09 holy paladins were not just great healers but were also the best at tanking and could spike damage the hardest out of the 3 specs. Still couldn't tank worth a poo poo compared to a prot war, or do sustained dps worth a poo poo, but I crushed tons of skulls with double spellpower trinkets, a strong SoCom proc and a divine favor'd holy shock followed by a hammer of judgement.
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Jun 30, 2015 02:02
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Failboattootoot posted:I think people forget that hybrid tax was an actual in game thing. As in, original everquest hybrids required 15% more exp to level than non-hybrids. It was dumb as gently caress in Everquest too, it was never justified. Are you 15% more valuable in a team? Do you solo 15% better (soloing was pretty much something only pure casting classes did). Everquest was just horrible and lovely in pretty much every way except being first.
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Jun 30, 2015 02:15
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noELrunes posted:https://twitter.com/mikehiggins3000/status/614569062694277120 Lol at the first guy going to Riot.
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Jun 30, 2015 02:19
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BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:Lol at the first guy going to Riot. I was going to say. There's been some discussion in the gamedev thread regarding the culture at Riot and the general consensus is it's a place that expects you to eat, breathe and dream League, and skews very hardcore, so - perfect fit 
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Jun 30, 2015 06:15
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Failboattootoot posted:I think people forget that hybrid tax was an actual in game thing. As in, original everquest hybrids required 15% more exp to level than non-hybrids. Don't forget hidden racial bonus/penalties to exp as well. Basically gently caress Troll Shadowknights in all holes.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:33
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Kessel posted:I was going to say. There's been some discussion in the gamedev thread regarding the culture at Riot and the general consensus is it's a place that expects you to eat, breathe and dream League, and skews very hardcore, so - perfect fit aren't casuals their main cash cow why skew hardcore when they're just welfare leeches sitting on the backs of people who pay for your salary
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Jun 30, 2015 11:03
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Givin posted:Don't forget hidden racial bonus/penalties to exp as well. Basically gently caress Troll Shadowknights in all holes. such is the price you pay for being The Best Race/Class Combo
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Jun 30, 2015 12:25
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Givin posted:Don't forget hidden racial bonus/penalties to exp as well. Basically gently caress Troll Shadowknights in all holes. To further this for everyone who didn't play EQ, it literally took a troll / ogre SK twice the amount of exp to level vs another class. The best part of the hybrid tax? Everyone in the group received the same amount of exp. Players were penalized exp wise for even grouping with hybrids because of The Vision.
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Jun 30, 2015 14:33
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onesixtwo posted:To further this for everyone who didn't play EQ, it literally took a troll / ogre SK twice the amount of exp to level vs another class. The best part of the hybrid tax? Everyone in the group received the same amount of exp. Players were penalized exp wise for even grouping with hybrids because of The Vision. i'm glad that Brad McQuaid's career crashed and burned
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Jun 30, 2015 14:53
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I thought spirit originally gave you HP regen in combat, so they thought tanks would want agility for dodge and spirit for HP regen, and the only reasoning I can think of for int was maybe int had spell resistance tied to it at the very start? Higher int allowed you to increase your weapon skill faster 
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Jun 30, 2015 17:03
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The best tank gear in the game were assorted pieces of blue/green leather items with high armor stats.
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Jun 30, 2015 18:05
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And a rare-drop level 40 pair of mail gloves were the best gloves in the entire game for Warriors because they had +weapon skill, and no other gloves did.
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Jun 30, 2015 18:25
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AbrahamLincolnLog posted:And a rare-drop level 40 pair of mail gloves were the best gloves in the entire game for Warriors because they had +weapon skill, and no other gloves did. Those gloves actually dropped for me. In wrath and therefore were worthless 
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Jun 30, 2015 18:27
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Normal Adult Human posted:The best tank gear in the game were assorted pieces of blue/green leather items with high armor stats. Pre MC sure you were using stuff from lower level instances because they had stam and + def while the warrior and paladin sets had no focus. It is still odd how no one has ever been able to have sane stats and itemisation from launch despite there being 15 years of this stuff in the wild.
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Jun 30, 2015 20:50
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The Chairman posted:Even though every class had a damage and a support spec, no class really could operate as a hybrid, since your attack and support power were separate stats and you were limited to 8 abilities on the bar. I meant in the WoW sense of "Paladins can be Healers, Tanks or DPS and thus are bad at all three", joking that all Wildstar's classes were bad at everything because hardcore.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:18
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Anatharon posted:I meant in the WoW sense of "Paladins can be Healers, Tanks or DPS and thus are bad at all three", joking that all Wildstar's classes were bad at everything because hardcore. The hybrid tax for every class in wildstar was having to play wildstar
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Jun 30, 2015 21:58
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RottenK posted:aren't casuals their main cash cow my general perception of devs like this is that to them, casuals are some gross thing they have to put up with for money so that they can keep the game going for the real players
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Jun 30, 2015 22:10
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