The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

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PerpetualSelf: Apr 6, 2015; by Ralp

NutritiousSnack posted:

It isn't in Poland were the population is 99% Slavic, where few cultural products telling a story of a discriminated people still suffering from WWII and Soviet era occupation are heard, and when diversity is from a purely American centric point of view.

Should African American film makers have to use space to tell Asian American stories? LGBT stories? Even when so few of theirs are heard?

Ever been to South America?

# ? Jul 1, 2015 02:53

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# ? May 30, 2024 20:13

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

NutritiousSnack posted:

It isn't in Poland were the population is 99% Slavic, where few cultural products telling a story of a discriminated people still suffering from WWII and Soviet era occupation are heard, and when diversity is from a purely American centric point of view.

Should African American film makers have to use space to tell Asian American stories? LGBT stories? Even when so few of theirs are heard?

It seems like Jewish stories would be fair game though.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 02:54

Let us English: Feb 21, 2004; Actual photo of Let Us English, probably seen here waking his wife up in the morning talking about chemical formulae when all she wants is a hot cup of shhhhh

blackguy32 posted:

I think the point is that if they want to sell their poo poo over here, then of course they would need to bend their products to North American understanding. Let's not forget that Resident Evil 5 undertook some changes before it was released. Why would should they be immune from criticism just because they are overseas when they are still selling their product on American soil?

I mean Techland made that racist Call of Juarez game The Cartel that took place on American soil and they are Polish. Should they be immune to criticism about that issue?

I'm in no way trying to argue that anything should be immune from criticism. It's perfectly OK to point out that a product form another culture violates our current social mores and taboos, particularly when they product is being sold in America. However, I think we need to understand the creator's culture to properly contextualize these games as part of any conversation about race and games.

RE5 trades on very racially charged imagery, that the creator's were oblivious to this does not excuse it but it's an important part of the conversation. We can't uncritically demand that the rest of the world bend their views on race to fit ours. In Witcher 3's case I think that the game's relation to Poland and Polish identity are important to take into account in the discussion. So while I think games have a massive issue with race, I think the Witcher 3 is not the appropriate poster-child for the discussion.

I actually thing Call of Juarez is a much better example as that game is trading on stereotypes that emerged from America as seen from the Polish point of view. A similar reflection is often seen in Japanese games that feature black characters.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 02:54

INH5: Dec 17, 2012; Error: file not found.

blackguy32 posted:

I think the point is that if they want to sell their poo poo over here, then of course they would need to bend their products to North American understanding. Let's not forget that Resident Evil 5 undertook some changes before it was released. Why would should they be immune from criticism just because they are overseas when they are still selling their product on American soil?

How about because America isn't the only country in the world? There's no reason for the North American perspective to be privileged over all others. Should American developers have to bend all of their games to, say, Chinese understanding?

Well actually, they sort of already do, as seen with Chinese enemies getting nonsensically replaced with North Koreans in games like Crysis and Homefront, but I'm not sure if that's the kind of thing I want to be encouraging.

blackguy32 posted:

I mean Techland made that racist Call of Juarez game The Cartel that took place on American soil and they are Polish. Should they be immune to criticism about that issue?

Call of Juarez and Resident Evil 5 are different because they are set in real places, so I think the people making them do have an obligation to portray those places accurately, especially when the creators aren't from the place in question. That's just common courtesy.

blackguy32 posted:

I never knew diversity was simply an American social issue. There are other people all over the world than simply the American variety.

Diversity in the sense of the primary division between ethnic groups being skin color is mostly limited to the Americas and places with similar histories like Australia and South Africa. Other places often have different ways of dividing people up, usually focusing much more on culture, language, and religion. While having a different skin color from the norm will mark a person as "not from around here" pretty much everywhere, in a great many places that isn't the primary thing people care about.

For example, in the early 20th century, a number of African Americans immigrated to the Soviet Union, where they were treated well even though the place had severe discrimination against non-Russian Slavic ethnicities

INH5 fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jul 1, 2015

# ? Jul 1, 2015 02:55

Sinnlos: Sep 5, 2011; Ask me about believing in magical rainbow gold

The Japanese have different cultural standards than the US, and the sexualization of young girls is viewed as more acceptable than in the west. Does that make clearly underage, sexualized character designs acceptable in the US, so long as they were designed in Japan?

Its cool, its official art and shes really 1000's of years old.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 02:55

frajaq: Jan 30, 2009; #acolyte GM of 2014

I thought most people benched her immediately because the whole thing is creepy

# ? Jul 1, 2015 02:58

Obdicut: May 15, 2012; "What election?"

NutritiousSnack posted:

It isn't in Poland were the population is 99% Slavic, where few cultural products telling a story of a discriminated people still suffering from WWII and Soviet era occupation are heard, and when diversity is from a purely American centric point of view.

Should African American film makers have to use space to tell Asian American stories? LGBT stories? Even when so few of theirs are heard?

Again, The Witcher does actually explore racism, through the dwarves and elves.

Polish people, of course, have a pretty vested interest in exploring racism given that whole "Nazis thought we were subhumans/we were rife with antisemitism" thing.

INH5 posted:

How about because America isn't the only country in the world? There's no reason for the North American perspective to be privileged over all others. Should American developers have to bend all of their games to, say, Chinese understanding?

The idea of exploring racism isn't the North American perspective. The Witcher actually does explore racism. Nifty, huh?

quote:

For example, in the early 20th century, a number of African Americans immigrated to the Soviet Union, where they were treated well even though the place had severe discrimination against non-Russian Slavic ethnicities

Not actually true. In propaganda terms they were well treated, in terms of actual acceptance, no.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:01

NutritiousSnack: Jul 12, 2011

computer parts posted:

It seems like Jewish stories would be fair game though.

Unironically agreed but that's what the Church of the Eternal Flame burning people is there for. It's bad compared to how they handle other issues the game, but that's different to the complaints asking were the Ottomans trader analogues are at or the China expy nation.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:02

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

INH5 posted:

How about because America isn't the only country in the world? There's no reason for the North American perspective to be privileged over all others. Should American developers have to bend all of their games to, say, Chinese understanding?

Well actually, they sort of already do, as seen with Chinese enemies getting nonsensically replaced with North Koreans in games like Crysis and Homefront, but I'm not sure if that's the kind of thing I want to be encouraging.

Call of Juarez and Resident Evil 5 are different because they are set in real places, so I think the people making them do have an obligation to portray those places accurately, especially when the creators aren't from the place in question. That's just common courtesy.

Diversity in the sense of the primary division between ethnic groups being skin color is mostly limited to the Americas and places with similar histories like Australia and South Africa. Other places often have different ways of dividing people up, usually focusing much more on culture, language, and religion. While having a different skin color from the norm will mark a person as "not from around here" pretty much everywhere, in a great many places that isn't the primary thing people care about.

For example, in the 1940s and 50s, a number of African Americans immigrated to the Soviet Union, where they were treated well even though the place had severe discrimination against non-Russian Slavic ethnicities

1) Nobody said America was the only country in the world. But if you release some poo poo like that here, you better be prepared for the criticism about it. No one cares about it being from Japan or not. What matters is does it engage in awful stereotypes?

2) Also, if a game is going to be released in China, I would sure as hell hope that people did their research as to what is acceptable over there and what isn't. It isn't unheard of for games to be altered for different audiences.

3)So when something is a fake made up place, then anything goes? Fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. It says something when your fantasy world is made up of the good people being mostly white and all the bad people being orcs or trolls.

4)If you think race and colorism only exists in the Americas, Australia and South Africa, then I don't know what to tell you. France has huge issues with it, England has issues with it. Even Japan has issues with it.

This stuff is a non-sequitur anyhow. The point is that more games need to make strides at showing a diverse world because despite the ethnic and sexual makeup of the world, an overwhelming amount of video game characters are white. No, nobody is forcing anyone to make their characters different, but most are merely criticizing when devs take that route.

From what it seems to be in this thread, people don't even want simple criticism. It is fine if you don't think that particular criticism for Witcher 3 holds up, I think it is perfectly valid. It is fine if you don't think the gaming industry should tackle issues of diversity. They are simply opinions, but don't be surprised if people keep criticizing these games on those issues.

blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jul 1, 2015

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:05

NutritiousSnack: Jul 12, 2011

Obdicut posted:

Again, The Witcher does actually explore racism, through the dwarves and elves.

Actually read what I wrote in that small section because it mentioned "face discrimination" in it. The thing it's going to come from a Polish perspective, just like issues of racism faced by black americans is going to go through an African American one with little room used for the story of Chinese immigrant and for good reason.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:08

Squinty: Aug 12, 2007

blackguy32 posted:

3)So when something is a fake made up place, then anything goes? Fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. It says something when your fantasy world is made up of the good people being mostly white and all the bad people being orcs or trolls.

It's not a fake made up fantasy world, it's a made up fantasy world based on Polish traditions and folklore. Again, demanding diversity in a game series like the Witcher is akin to demanding diversity in a series like Romance of the Three Kingdoms. You could certainly fit some racially diverse characters into either, but it shouldn't be treated as a moral obligation. Let people tell their own stories how they want.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:11

hwordhan: Sep 27, 2012; Ask me about the taste of a video game character's breast milk!

computer parts posted:

Not nearly as many between an Austrian and a Dutchman.

I agree. And I also agree that europeans don't all look alike.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:11

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

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(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:13

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Squinty posted:

Let people tell their own stories how they want.

No one is stopping people from telling stories how they want. It just seems that people are getting mad because others have the nerve to criticize them for it.

I mean if you disagree with the criticism, grow up and ignore it. Don't get upset and try to tell them to stop criticizing a video game.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:14

NutritiousSnack: Jul 12, 2011

blackguy32 posted:

1) Nobody said America was the only country in the world. But if you release some poo poo like that here, you better be prepared for the criticism about it. No one cares about it being from Japan or not. What matters is does it engage in awful stereotypes?

So Japanese stories talking about the atomic bombs or Japanese miracle or other Japanese phenomena need black people to appeal to America? Uh.

blackguy32 posted:

2) Also, if a game is going to be released in China, I would sure as hell hope that people did their research as to what is acceptable over there and what isn't. It isn't unheard of for games to be altered for different audiences.

If a game is released from China to America, as an international film like the Killers or the like, they must have some token non Asian America ethnicity then? What the hell are arguing here man? Do you have any idea what you are saying.?
'

blackguy32 posted:

3)So when something is a fake made up place, then anything goes? Fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. It says something when your fantasy world is made up of the good people being mostly white and all the bad people being orcs or trolls.

None of this is in the Witcher. Slavic Polish and other nations dealing with war and occupation by a Slavic Russian metaphor.

blackguy32 posted:

4)If you think race and colorism only exists in the Americas, Australia and South Africa, then I don't know what to tell you. France has huge issues with it, England has issues with it. Even Japan has issues with it.

Yeah, and the Polish were and STILL are major victims of it and it's there story. Once again, if they were not white I highly doubt you would be asking them to share their space.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:17

Obdicut: May 15, 2012; "What election?"

NutritiousSnack posted:

Actually read what I wrote in that small section because it mentioned "face discrimination" in it. The thing it's going to come from a Polish perspective, just like issues of racism faced by black americans is going to go through an African American one with little room used for the story of Chinese immigrant and for good reason.

No, it didn't mention 'face discrimination. I am unsure what you're complaining about now: I don't think there is any problem with The Witcher and race. The Witcher explores racism in the treatment of dwarves and elves, which is a pretty common way for fantasy-setting stuff to explore it.

Squinty posted:

It's not a fake made up fantasy world, it's a made up fantasy world based on Polish traditions and folklore. Again, demanding diversity in a game series like the Witcher is akin to demanding diversity in a series like Romance of the Three Kingdoms. You could certainly fit some racially diverse characters into either, but it shouldn't be treated as a moral obligation. Let people tell their own stories how they want.

Again, The Witcher does explore racism, and does have diversity, in that it's got non-human characters.

blackguy32 posted:

This stuff is a non-sequitur anyhow. The point is that more games need to make strides at showing a diverse world because despite the ethnic and sexual makeup of the world, an overwhelming amount of video game characters are white. No, nobody is forcing anyone to make their characters different, but most are merely criticizing when devs take that route.

From what it seems to be in this thread, people don't even want simple criticism. It is fine if you don't think that particular criticism for Witcher 3 holds up, I think it is perfectly valid. It is fine if you don't think the gaming industry should tackle issues of diversity. They are simply opinions, but don't be surprised if people keep criticizing these games on those issues.

What's weird to me is that the people defending it can't even appear to see that there is a way that it does have diversity in it. I agree with you that it's mostly a non-sequitur. This doesn't rise and fall on The Witcher. It's about the medium in general, just as it is in movies, TV, novels, etc.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:18

hwordhan: Sep 27, 2012; Ask me about the taste of a video game character's breast milk!

blackguy32 posted:

No one is stopping people from telling stories how they want. It just seems that people are getting mad because others have the nerve to criticize them for it.

I mean if you disagree with the criticism, grow up and ignore it. Don't get upset and try to tell them to stop criticizing a video game.

I think this is great advice: Critcize the status quo (for lack of a better word of honestly) and ignore said ciritcism.
However, how exactly do you think one could improve said status quo?

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:18

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

Gianthogweed posted:

No one knows who the troll really was. There's some speculation that it came from ayyteam doing it for the lulz. Anita and Anti-GG has tried to use the threat to their advantage to discredit gamergate so it wouldn't surprise me if it was a false flag. Or it could be a double false flag meant to discredit the people trying to discredit gamergate ... wait maybe it's a triple false flag! Ooh, the conspiracies abound. Who do you think sent the threat?

Edit:

Actually didn't the gamergate harassment patrol find out who was sending the death threats to Sarkeesian? Not sure if it was the same guy that sent that specific death threat, but I remember hearing about it in that 6 hour SPJ video that I posted earlier in the thread. I was only half listening to it while doing other poo poo though and I'm not going to bother going back to listen to it again though.

This was probably the guy.
http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/10/gamergate-journalist-allegedly-outed-as-twitter-harasser-sending-death-threats/

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:19

Squinty: Aug 12, 2007

Obdicut posted:

Again, The Witcher does explore racism, and does have diversity, in that it's got non-human characters.

Yes? If that's how they want to explore diversity then that's cool. It's dumb to ask them to include real world racial diversity because that's how we'd do it.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms deals with ethnic discrimination as well (the book, haven't played the games). And it would still be dumb to ask the developers to include other races so they can address racial diversity the way we do.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:24

Obdicut: May 15, 2012; "What election?"

Squinty posted:

Yes? If that's how they want to explore diversity then that's cool. It's dumb to ask them to include real world racial diversity because that's how we'd do it.

Okay, why are you saying this to me?

quote:

Romance of the Three Kingdoms deals with ethnic discrimination as well (the book, haven't played the games). And it would still be dumb to ask the developers to include other races so they can address racial diversity the way we do.

Why are you saying this to me?

Also we wouldn't do it that way. We don't address racial diversity. That's kind of the point. Our gaming media is way racist.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:28

NutritiousSnack: Jul 12, 2011

Obdicut posted:

No, it didn't mention 'face discrimination. I am unsure what you're complaining about now: I don't think there is any problem with The Witcher and race. The Witcher explores racism in the treatment of dwarves and elves, which is a pretty common way for fantasy-setting stuff to explore it

I mentioned the Polish want to tell their story, that Slavic people still face discrimination today, and that's a WWII and Soviet era occupation story and you still go on about this. You can't even admit your wrong for a second man, because you can't admit Chinese people have no place in this type of story thematically.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:36

INH5: Dec 17, 2012; Error: file not found.

NutritiousSnack posted:

I mentioned the Polish want to tell their story, that Slavic people still face discrimination today, and that's a WWII and Soviet era occupation story and you still go on about this. You can't even admit your wrong for a second man, because you can't admit Chinese people have no place in this type of story thematically.

I think you might be getting the people that you're arguing with confused. Obdicut has been pretty clear that he's fine with the Witcher 3's handling of racial issues.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:38

NutritiousSnack: Jul 12, 2011

Obdicut posted:

Also we wouldn't do it that way. We don't address racial diversity. That's kind of the point. Our gaming media is way racist.

That's what your explicitly asking for though in a game by Slavic developers about Slavic oppression and discrimination. The fact your so loving nationalist is what makes this hilarious and sad.

INH5 posted:

I think you might be getting the people that you're arguing with confused. Obdicut has been pretty clear that he's fine with the Witcher 3's handling of racial issues.

He's backing Blackman's weird rear end complaint about the lack of diversity and PoCs in a game all about racial and nationalist issues from a heavily discrimination subsection of people talking about their specific ethnic issues they still face, but maybe we all are arguing past one another I guess.

NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Jul 1, 2015

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:39

Obdicut: May 15, 2012; "What election?"

NutritiousSnack posted:

That's what your explicitly asking for though in a game by Slavic developers about Slavic oppression and discrimination. The fact your so loving nationalist is what makes this hilarious and sad.

Again, you think I'm someone I'm not. Please stop doing this, it's loving weird as poo poo. I am not hard to keep track of.

To help you keep track, I am the one with Genghis Khan from the Simpsons over to the left there, I do sociology, and I think the problem with the Witcher was those sex cards, which I seriously thought someone had made up to make fun of the game before someone assured me they're real.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:40

NutritiousSnack: Jul 12, 2011

Obdicut posted:

Again, you think I'm someone I'm not. Please stop doing this, it's loving weird as poo poo. I am not hard to keep track of.

You've been arguing that I don't think the Witcher games talk about racial discrimination despite numerous references to Slavic state and Europe wanting them to tell their stories. I'm not the only one having trouble "keeping track"

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:47

Obdicut: May 15, 2012; "What election?"

NutritiousSnack posted:

You've been arguing that I don't think the Witcher games talk about racial discrimination despite numerous references to Slavic state and Europe wanting them to tell their stories. I'm not the only one having trouble "keeping track"

No, I haven't. You have me confused with someone else. You really do. I have no idea why.

Let me quote me for you:

Obdicut posted:

I feel like The Witcher is an exactly bad example to use because a cool sociologist dude I like thinks The Witcher 2 is a harrowing and great examination of racism through an allegory. The general milieu of gaming is a hell of a lot more convincing than a single game, anyway.

Obdicut posted:

Nope. I don't think it's a problem that the Witcher has all white characters, either. What I said that the defense of it isn't "Polish society is 98% white". The defense of it is "In the fictional area that's represented, it's unlikely there'd be foreigners in general roaming around because the methods of travel are super slow, so a relatively homogenous society is to be expected". Also, the society presented in the Witcher is nasty as gently caress, and explores racism through the treatment of elves and dwarves, or so I've been led to believe, never having played them.

Obdicut posted:

Again, The Witcher does actually explore racism, through the dwarves and elves.

Polish people, of course, have a pretty vested interest in exploring racism given that whole "Nazis thought we were subhumans/we were rife with antisemitism" thing.

The idea of exploring racism isn't the North American perspective. The Witcher actually does explore racism. Nifty, huh?

Obdicut posted:

No, it didn't mention 'face discrimination. I am unsure what you're complaining about now: I don't think there is any problem with The Witcher and race. The Witcher explores racism in the treatment of dwarves and elves, which is a pretty common way for fantasy-setting stuff to explore it.

Some of those posts were to you, by the way.

Edit: Bolded some quotes to help you.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 03:51

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

hwordhan posted:

I think this is great advice: Critcize the status quo (for lack of a better word of honestly) and ignore said ciritcism.
However, how exactly do you think one could improve said status quo?

What we are getting here is people who are bitching that people are criticizing their medium in a way they don't like. But I mean, at the end of the day, it is just words. But people are still throwing a hissy fit about it.

NutritiousSnack posted:

So Japanese stories talking about the atomic bombs or Japanese miracle or other Japanese phenomena need black people to appeal to America? Uh.

If a game is released from China to America, as an international film like the Killers or the like, they must have some token non Asian America ethnicity then? What the hell are arguing here man? Do you have any idea what you are saying.?
'

None of this is in the Witcher. Slavic Polish and other nations dealing with war and occupation by a Slavic Russian metaphor.

Yeah, and the Polish were and STILL are major victims of it and it's there story. Once again, if they were not white I highly doubt you would be asking them to share their space.

1) I never said every game needed to do that but holy poo poo, Resident Evil is American as gently caress yet almost every single protagonist in those games is white with the exception of Sheva and Ada. That says something. Bionic Commando, all white people, Devil May Cry- White, Silent Hill- White people again. None of the characters in those games absolutely have to be White, they could be Asian, Hispanic, whatever. Notice how none of those are about the Atom bomb or whatever it is that you are going on about.

2) No one ever said anything about tokenism or anything like that, what I did say is that I would hope that you wouldn't get blatantly racist poo poo like Call of Juarez saying that Mexican cartel are trafficking humans from the United States when it is clearly not the case. Simply do your research and understand that when you release something somewhere, you open yourself up to criticism for not doing your research on whether something is offensive or not.

3) I really don't give a poo poo about the Witcher 3 anymore, this problem is indicative of more than one game.

4) If you are going to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head about what I would do if they were not white, then this conversation is over.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 04:11

hwordhan: Sep 27, 2012; Ask me about the taste of a video game character's breast milk!

blackguy32 posted:

What we are getting here is people who are bitching that people are criticizing their medium in a way they don't like. But I mean, at the end of the day, it is just words. But people are still throwing a hissy fit about it.

I see, I see and I honestly agree!
But why don't you ignore said hissy fit? I mean it's just randos on the internet who cannot achieve anything?

# ? Jul 1, 2015 04:26

GentlemanBrofro: Mar 9, 2011; by Lowtax

INH5 posted:

That's kind of the definition of fiction, so yes.

The Turner Diaries was marketed at people who were already white supremacist survivalist nutjobs. Anyone else who reads it finds it either hilarious or boring.

I'm curious, do the studies about this distinguish between various types of images, IE magazine cover vs. movies vs. cartoons?

Yes they do. They used the type of imagery you'd find in terms of advertisements, on women's interest magazines, etc.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 04:39

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

hwordhan posted:

I see, I see and I honestly agree!
But why don't you ignore said hissy fit? I mean it's just randos on the internet who cannot achieve anything?

I ignore most of it, but there are a few times where people are genuinely curious. But usually after a few posts, you can see which camp they fall into.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 04:50

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

AFoolAndHisMoney posted:

Wait this is still a thing?

e: Also how are there almost 150 pages in 4 days, what the flying gently caress is wrong with you people?

# ? Jul 1, 2015 04:51

Uncle Wemus: Mar 4, 2004

But wouldn't "just adding a few black people" to the game be bad because then they would just be background decorations?

# ? Jul 1, 2015 04:53

hwordhan: Sep 27, 2012; Ask me about the taste of a video game character's breast milk!

blackguy32 posted:

I ignore most of it, but there are a few times where people are genuinely curious. But usually after a few posts, you can see which camp they fall into.

That's fair enough. I don't care about what camp somebody falls into because, whatever camp it is, the only metric I consider is whether i find their posting entertaining or not. Just like Videogames.

The Shortest Path posted:

e: Also how are there almost 150 pages in 4 days, what the flying gently caress is wrong with you people?

What you mean gg is life and gg is death gg is eternity. Just today I played mid-lane LB in lol and the opposing jungler Eve called gg because I 3-0'ed their Talon and I got so mad that we won, cause top lane Yoshimitsu is broken!

hwordhan fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jul 1, 2015

# ? Jul 1, 2015 04:57

INH5: Dec 17, 2012; Error: file not found.

blackguy32 posted:

1) I never said every game needed to do that but holy poo poo, Resident Evil is American as gently caress yet almost every single protagonist in those games is white with the exception of Sheva and Ada. That says something. Bionic Commando, all white people, Devil May Cry- White, Silent Hill- White people again. None of the characters in those games absolutely have to be White, they could be Asian, Hispanic, whatever. Notice how none of those are about the Atom bomb or whatever it is that you are going on about.

It feels weird to criticize people for "not contributing enough to diversity" when they make characters of a different ethnicity than their own, because those characters happen to be the majority in another country. Well, I guess you can criticize them for overlooking the diversity of the place where the games are set, which really is a very common problem in stories set in a foreign country in basically any medium anywhere. People seem to have a habit of mentally collapsing foreign countries into a few notable characteristics, and that includes the people who live there. For example, how often do US movies that take place somewhere in Latin America feature any local black people, even though in many Latin American countries they are about as common, or even more common, than they are in the US?

But I think this is still a separate issue from creators using their own ethnicity as the default for the characters they create, and should be treated as such.

By the way, while Rebecca Chambers, one of the PCs in Resident Evil 0, has a very English name, her character model is based on a Japanese pop star, so I don't know what's up with her.

GentlemanBrofro posted:

Yes they do. They used the type of imagery you'd find in terms of advertisements, on women's interest magazines, etc.

Interesting. Though that shows that it isn't necessarily sexualization or objectification per se, as the photos of women on the covers of women's magazines are obviously not designed to be sexually appealing, though they do often end up being virtually indistinguishable from the photos of women on the covers of men's magazines which are designed to be sexually appealing.

I wonder if anyone has done any similar studies to see how men respond to, for example, the covers of Men's Health.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 04:58

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

INH5 posted:

It feels weird to criticize people for "not contributing enough to diversity" when they make characters of a different ethnicity than their own, because those characters happen to be the majority in another country. Well, I guess you can criticize them for overlooking the diversity of the place where the games are set, which really is a very common problem in stories set in a foreign country in basically any medium anywhere. People seem to have a habit of mentally collapsing foreign countries into a few notable characteristics, and that includes the people who live there. For example, how often do US movies that take place somewhere in Latin America feature any local black people, even though in many Latin American countries they are about as common, or even more common, than they are in the US?

But I think this is still a separate issue from creators using their own ethnicity as the default for the characters they create, and should be treated as such.

By the way, while Rebecca Chambers, one of the PCs in Resident Evil 0, has a very English name, her character model is based on a Japanese pop star, so I don't know what's up with her.

That is ok. The Witcher 3 isn't the hill that I have to die on considering that this is a problem that is industry wide and not with just one developer.

But I do think games would benefit from more diversity. Wei Shen is a pretty good character that has an interesting background that I think adds to the character. Adewale is also a great character that I think his background adds a lot of flavor to the DLC he takes part in.

Earlier in the thread I was debating with poptart_fairy about minority characters, and at this point, at the very list, I would like some decently written minority characters that aren't stereotypes at the most basic level. But I also wouldn't mind heavier stuff getting tackled. One of the best parts of Wolfenstein The New Order was when Jimi Hendrix's character challenges BJ Blackowicz on what he was actually fighting for, and then the game kind of just drops it. It would have been neat to see how that played out.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 05:12

GentlemanBrofro: Mar 9, 2011; by Lowtax

Pointing at an isolated incident isn't going to change the supposed institutionalized racism within video game development.

INH5 posted:

I wonder if anyone has done any similar studies to see how men respond to, for example, the covers of Men's Health.

Well from the same study, when subjected to the same imagery that women were shown, heterosexual males tended to not associate the imagery with any negative connotation. That same study may have delved into the other side of the spectrum but I'd have to look back into it and hope to god I didn't delete my notes.

However, gay men have an entirely different response. In the attempts to make accurate psychometrics that can determine the validity of sexual objectification, ISOS, or the interpersonal sexual objectification scale, has become a popular vessel for testing. However, the few studies that use it tend to use it within the context of heterosexual women. The two counter studies that applied ISOS to gay men found that gay men and heterosexual women tend to rate the same amount of sexual objectification, self-objectification and same degrees of eating disorder behavior. The authors eloquently suggested, �the two groups most likely to seek out men as romantic or sexual partners and to be sought by men as partners were the most vulnerable to the psychological experiences associated with the male gaze [sexual objectification]�.

edit: It's really quite fascinating how that works out. In research on objectification, there were numerous examples of terrible comparative tests with unreliable results.

GentlemanBrofro fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jul 1, 2015

# ? Jul 1, 2015 05:13

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

The Edward R. Murrow of our time.
https://youtu.be/BjZJPzFUI5k

# ? Jul 1, 2015 05:40

Uncle Wemus: Mar 4, 2004

Slightly unrelated question

So the big takeaway from GG is that there is a fairly large (several thousand or so going by the registered people on KiA and 8chan) group of people who are extremely upset and feel they are hated. In a way they are right. They are the socially inept and socially rejected losers of society who have been swept into one of the darker corners of the internet. They aren't a racial or ethnic minority so they didn't have it the worst, but they are undesirables nonetheless. Undesirables who are told that they have it far better than they think they do. Now whether or not they do have it better than others or whatever personal problem they have doesn't matter because at the end of the day they are still unwanted. What is there to do about these people? Capitalism means there will always be people like them who fall through the cracks, natural selection and all that. But what nobody in all this seems interested in, except maybe the SPJ people, is reach out to these people so they don't just hide in the dark corners of the internet until they go crazy and shoot up a sorority in California. I don't believe that people are beyond changing after a certain age and even SMG says that people aren't beyond redemption. Everyone outside of them seems content to call them fat virgin neckbeard pissbabies and be done with it. But while we are making steps to reach out to more marginalized people I don't see much done to help the marginalized "middle-class". People like gg, or MRA's or even outside of the internet, rednecks. I'm guessing its because they are people who don't actively go out and march for acceptance like gays, and when people have reached out to them they slap the hand away.

I like to think that the video game nerd community is much more capable than people think. They do accept female characters and trans characters and racial minority characters, like Samus or Poison from Street Fighter or Carl from GTA:San Andreas (which admittedly had backlash because it starred a black guy but later became more accepted after people played it). Or if you don't like Poison because shes sexualized then theres that Trans ghost girl in Paper Mario. Point is gamers CAN change and accept diversity, it just has to be closer to their comfort zone first. I think one of the problems with FemFreq is they no longer try to reach the people who hate them, choosing instead to just preach to the choir. GG people can understand treating female characters like poo poo, just look at the complaints about Metroid: Other M. So I guess my question is how can we end the whole thing, or at least work towards something better, without just chasing out the undesirables but rather bringing them in?

# ? Jul 1, 2015 06:25

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

I don't think it would be such a big problem if the economy was better. Most of these angry young men would have jobs and families and wouldn't be worrying so much about their games. They'd have other things to be angry about though. All things considered though, a twitter war over dumb poo poo like video games is better than rioting in the streets over real issues. Things may yet get to that point though if the economy gets worse.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 06:45

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# ? May 30, 2024 20:13

Let us English: Feb 21, 2004; Actual photo of Let Us English, probably seen here waking his wife up in the morning talking about chemical formulae when all she wants is a hot cup of shhhhh

Uncle Wemus posted:

So I guess my question is how can we end the whole thing, or at least work towards something better, without just chasing out the undesirables but rather bringing them in?

We can, and we have to, but I don't think internet discourse is suited to it and it has to be done on a personal level. The incentives of arguing on the internet will always favor more confrontation and aggression. People changing their minds are rare enough, and they certainly don't do it when they feel attacked or threatened.

To put it another way, people are more likely to change when they feel guilty and less likely when they feel shamed. Those advocating for public shaming in this thread think it's a powerful motivator to change but it merely drives unfavorable opinions underground where they grow uglier, this is particularly true in an age where people can seal themselves up in a custom-made ideological echo chamber.

Addressing people's concerns, treating them with respect, and empathizing with them even as you find their views abhorrent is far more likely to result in a change in behavior (though admittedly, people changing their minds is still rare) but good luck fostering that on the internet.

# ? Jul 1, 2015 06:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

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