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Uncle Wemus posted:
The fundamental basis of GG is a fear that their way of life (or way of entertainment, rather) is going to change forever. This has been the refrain for over a decade, not just for minorities explicitly either. When the Wii first came out tons of people bitched and moaned that companies would start pandering to "casual gamers" at the expense of "hardcore" gamers*. Obviously this hasn't happened, but the sentiment persists. "Hardcore" gamers (which are what we know as "Gamer" culture) know that they are overrepresented in some areas (particularly men in adolescence/early 20s). They also know that there are trends which are reducing the relative influence of traditional games in favor of other fields (mobile games, etc). Worse still, even traditional games are starting to appeal to those who are outside of the typical demographic. There will not be a means of reconciliation between GGers and others until this crisis of entertainment is resolved. Women and others are not going away, they have their own niche , and they even have interest in your niche. You (general you) can't change that. *Just as a sidenote, when people said "casual" it was often a codeword for "women". How often did you hear "Oh women are gamers? I guess if you count those Facebook games  "?
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Jul 1, 2015 06:52
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The problem is that GG is entirely a cult of personality now. FemFreq makes points they can understand, but the points are coming out of the Hated Devil Sarkeesian so they get ignored. Similarly, very few of them actually care about the issue at hand- as you pointed out, gamers actually cotton pretty well to minority representation most of the time.
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Jul 1, 2015 06:52
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Gianthogweed posted:The Edward R. Murrow of our time. Thank Christ, I thought he was going to say 'good night and good luck'. I would have then had to take a gun and kill myself. blackguy32 posted:That is ok. The Witcher 3 isn't the hill that I have to die on considering that this is a problem that is industry wide and not with just one developer. I want more games from more cultures. I want a game that's all African and all about African culture. I want games about Middle Eastern cultures and their fantasy stories. I want all of it because I've never been exposed to those sort of things before in this medium. And it can be refreshing. Germanic, bog-standard fantasy gets boring. Being exposed to other cultures makes us empathetic towards them, removes xenophobia and feelings of 'otherness'. That's what is so wonderful about diversity. It is a problem with games, though. I would never deny that. This boils down to about four things: 1) Games writing as a whole with few exceptions, is genuinely terrible. It is less important than even Q.A. is in the games industry. Stories frequently makes no goddamn narrative sense, characters are one or two dimensional and typically only serve as a vehicle for driving the game play forward. Many people aren't interested in good writing because they have rarely been exposed to it. And so you get stereotypes, because that's what bad writing does. This needs to change. 2) Most tend to write what they know. Which is basically white people and really don't feel comfortable writing characters outside of their comfort zone (which you basically just write them as you would write other characters with motivations and goals and multiple dimensions). This goes for women, homosexual characters, trans, etc. Other cultures and myths are even more difficult, especially if they are wildly different than what you grew up with. It isn't as simple as reading a book, it is translating that to the game. And as games writing is usually very bad and typically viewed as unimportant, you get this problem. 3) Fear of loving up. They are afraid they are going to get labeled as racists or get fired if they screw up.And people do screw up, even with the best of intentions. It is simpler to avoid the issue altogether than have a twitter mob trying to dox and threatening to murder your family because your writing was lovely yet not malicious. Even good and mediocre writing is not immune to this as well if someone misinterprets or takes it out of context. 4) Profit. Probably the biggest one. A lot of what gets cleared in gaming is done by marketing people and suits. Games with white, male protagonists are profitable. Having PoC being protagonists is risky. The suits don't want to gently caress the well up by risking changing the dynamic. Germanic fantasies sell. Brown shooters with white dudes sell. An Indian fantasy game where you play out the war between the Pandava and the Kaurava is a pretty big question mark that nobody wants to put any money into. The Witcher 3 never would have gotten made if Poland didn't do it, because nobody wants to put money into a Slavic fantasy game based on books nobody outside the country has heard of. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 07:01
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Anita needs to become really good at Street Fighter 5 and start attending tournaments. edit: Even though its a god-awful game. Unearthed is an amazingly interesting game from Saudi Arabia. But not for the reasons they intended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9dOhmPe_3U Uncle Wemus fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 07:05
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Uncle Wemus posted:Slightly unrelated question Its probably more about economics than anything as to why more people aren't reaching out to them. It can be seen as a movement that is kind of lashing out over something that is kind of an indulgence, so most people tend not to view that in a favorable light. I don't think that gamergaters are irredeemable, but I think at some point much of the vitriol has to stop and I think that one has to step away from the internet for that. Because as it stands, both sides are yelling while sticking their fingers in their ears. That being said, I disagree that FemFreq is preaching to the choir, I think they are doing exactly the thing that they should be doing, and that is reaching out to people who aren't openly hostile to their viewpoints but may just be uninformed about much of the stuff in gaming. As for making change, I don't know. I mean at one end of the spectrum I think there are people who want things to change, while at the other end, I think people are lashing out precisely because they see that change. Also, the fact that all this arguing is over consumer products complicates things quite a bit.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:10
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What games do people here think have good writing? For me I think The Last of Us was great, while not deep the performance capture really allows the actors to sell the story. The Witcher 3 was also a really cool take on parenthood. I also think anything the Houser's at Rockstar touch is gold. LA Noire, Max Payne 3, GTA IV & V, and Red Dead all provide very good commentary on the role of masculinity in American culture. Those five games, when taken together, constitute a strong attack against and show of the failures of 'toxic masculinity' as it's been called in this thread. Part of the problem with games criticism is that people aren't trained to observe themes and subtext in games. And even when the games make their meanings explicit, like Trevor's monologue after the torture scene in GTAV, if often goes over the head of critics as well as, I assume, over the players at large.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:12
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The Last of Us probably has the best writing of that bunch. But I thought that most Rockstar writing is pretty crappy. You always have that dissonance with their games where your character is crying about killing people or following the law, and then you go and do a bunch of murdering. Even ignoring that, Rockstar games almost always takes a nose dive because they want you to work for assholes and the assholes just string you along until the story says its time to move on. For example, the Mexico section in RDR, The FIB mission in GTA V, and drat near the whole midgame of GTA IV. I honestly can't really think of much of anything. The Witcher 3 has some decent writing for the quests because they can alter so much through your actions, but I think as a whole, the game's writing is pretty bland.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:20
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blackguy32 posted:
I guess I can't be sure but it sometimes seems like her fans are people who were already well versed in feminism. Her speaking events come off as people just cheering no matter what she says. It's like the Colbert Report Let us English posted:What games do people here think have good writing? I really loved Red Dead. It's interesting how the game ends with Jack tracking down the government guy and killing him which really feels like a hollow victory.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:21
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If Hideo Kojima had a goddamn editor his games could be brilliant. But instead they are a schizophrenic mess. A fun schizophrenic mess, but a schizophrenic mess nonetheless Silent Hill 2 was also pretty good in its writing. RIP survival horror.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:27
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Dapper Dan posted:If Hideo Kojima had a goddamn editor his games could be brilliant. But instead they are a schizophrenic mess. A fun schizophrenic mess, but a schizophrenic mess nonetheless You need to go back and replay every single one of those games so that you never say something so foolish again. MGS2 was downright prophetic.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:29
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The Droid posted:You need to go back and replay every single one of those games so that you never say something so foolish again. MGS2 was downright prophetic. I probably should  I still am looking forward to MGS V. It has been like a decade since I last played an MGS game (not counting 'Ground Zeroes').
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Jul 1, 2015 07:31
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No, he is right. Most of his games are a mess. I mean yeah, cool stuff happens during them, but in terms of cohesion, they are all over the place. It is all exemplified by MGS4 which decided that the solution to all of the series problems was nanomachines.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:32
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Let us English posted:What games do people here think have good writing? It's hard to assess really good writing in a game because game writing isn't just "the poo poo characters say during cut-scenes." It involves everything from the framing devices that form the conceit of the game to the flavor text on items and in menus to any dialogue options to world-building/character-revealing details that the player reveals through their actions/exploration to how the "levels/acts" of the game advance the story, and probably more that I don't even realize. As such very few games really check all or even most of the boxes of good writing, but that's ok because most don't need to. It riles some self-described gamers up a lot to hear that, but the hardcore truth is that compelling mechanics like Pac-Man, Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, Doom, or Castlevania really do only need plots as deep as your average pornography film to work as games. That said these are the games I think have writing that is worth studying, at the very least, as writing that actively enhances the game. * They were well before my time but even the basic outline around Ultima IV-VII/Serpent Isle forms an amazing in-depth look into fantasy tropes * The overall design is about as boilerplate as you could expect for the time, but the world-building in Earthbound was very creative and it deserves special credit for having one of the best English localisations of all time, making every single NPC work seeking out and talking to. * Psychonauts worked really well and in a better world would have launched a fun kid's franchise. * Silent Hill 2 did an excellent job of withholding and alluding to information, using the writing as more of a backstage operator that the player had to uncover for themselves. * The basic outline of Super Metroid's story was very well-realized even if it's a very basic arc. * I didn't like Mass Effect the way other people did, and only played 2, but for such a lore-heavy and text-heavy game it did a commendable job of using its obvious sources of inspiration and fashioning a sci-fi universe that felt modern and relatively unique. * The design may feel rudimentary or even archaic but Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas all had an excellent variety of options and extremely endearing iconography all things considered, along with a ton of environmental details that make a very cartoonish world feel human. * Bioshock 1 isn't that deep or thought-provoking, but it's very easy to engage with and buy into the world which is essential because the gameplay is no great shakes. * System Shock 2 works for the same way Bioshock did. Turns out taking a lot of ideas from Half-Life's structure and stapling on audio tapes can work exceptionally well. * Deus Ex is kind-of flawed in my opinion, but get points for being one of the only cyberpunk works I've read made after 1989 that even attempts to ask really difficult questions about its premise. * Half-Life 2's design is a bit rigid, but the mythology becomes genuinely intriguing the more of it you put together. * Arkham Asylum and Arkham City are no great shakes, but compared to Arkham Knight they reveal just how much excellent work was put in; the pacing is excellent, the flavor dialogue is mostly bearable, and the environment is bursting filled with little details. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 07:35
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blackguy32 posted:No, he is right. Most of his games are a mess. I mean yeah, cool stuff happens during them, but in terms of cohesion, they are all over the place. It is all exemplified by MGS4 which decided that the solution to all of the series problems was nanomachines. MGS4 would be the only one I would call a mess because it has massive sequel baggage, trying to tie up everything from MGS2 and address MGS3 while also trying to end Solid Snake's timeline altogether.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:38
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The Droid posted:MGS4 would be the only one I would call a mess because it has massive sequel baggage, trying to tie up everything from MGS2 and address MGS3 while also trying to end Solid Snake's timeline altogether. I think almost all suffer from the point that Dapper Dan made. They need an editor badly. MGS3 is kind of better off than the other in that it doesn't try to do too much, but MGS 1 and MGS 2 are awful when they muddle down and try to explain nuclear proliferation or the control of information for 45 minutes at a time. They really kind of beat you over the head with it and expand a 5 to 10 minute explanation to 30-45 minutes.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:42
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blackguy32 posted:I think almost all suffer from the point that Dapper Dan made. They need an editor badly. MGS3 is kind of better off than the other in that it doesn't try to do too much, but MGS 1 and MGS 2 are awful when they muddle down and try to explain nuclear proliferation or the control of information for 45 minutes at a time. They really kind of beat you over the head with it and expand a 5 to 10 minute explanation to 30-45 minutes. That's the way I remember it, honestly. The introduction of a lot of varied concepts, sometimes rapidly, combined with sometimes unnecessarily verbose dialogue messes with pacing and narrative cohesion. The Droid posted:MGS4 would be the only one I would call a mess because it has massive sequel baggage, trying to tie up everything from MGS2 and address MGS3 while also trying to end Solid Snake's timeline altogether. Don't get me wrong, saying the writing needs an editor isn't the same as saying its bad.
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Jul 1, 2015 08:13
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Going back a bit, why do North American white people try to inject problems systematic in their institutions to other countries? What gives them this right? Especially when those other countries operate totally on a different idea of race and ethnicity. Witcher debacle has been the most hilarious about this. The same type of hubbub rose from that czech game. It feels really forced and contrived. I agree that a game about modern Sweden should include immigrants, but a game about Gustaf Vasa era sweden? Totally weird and out of place. It really feels like while Europe is sliding towards right wing policies America is left as the bulwark of liberal progress, however due to their puritanical history they have not gone through the same kind of progress as Europe. Granted, they do have greater experience with civil rights battle. Also can someone explain why context doesnt matter in critique? Ive heard that a lot but never got it. Disclaimer, Im a nordic european so probably a racist shithead on American standards
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Jul 1, 2015 08:16
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mind the walrus posted:It's hard to assess really good writing in a game because game writing isn't just "the poo poo characters say during cut-scenes." It involves everything from the framing devices that form the conceit of the game to the flavor text on items and in menus to any dialogue options to world-building/character-revealing details that the player reveals through their actions/exploration to how the "levels/acts" of the game advance the story, and probably more that I don't even realize. All of these games are beloved or at least have a large fandom within the traditional gamer crowd. Nobody has a problem with more well written and well made games being made.
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Jul 1, 2015 08:18
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punakone posted:Also can someone explain why context doesnt matter in critique? Ive heard that a lot but never got it. It does in a large majority of criticism, but by its very nature cultural critique needs to eliminate context. You need to get a creative work to its basement foundations. For example, the Bechdel Test is a form of cultural criticism that strips away context. This is done in order to get a conversation about how women are represented in film. It is not supposed to be an actual test you use even though many people wrongly use it in this fashion. By in large, cultural criticism is about thinking about underlying meanings. Another example is the cultural critique of slasher movies as morality plays. The virgin lives and the drug-users and promiscuous die. This only works typically because context is removed. Creatively, they aren't useful because to create you need context. Cultural criticisms are more about to spur on conversations, to think about how media is being made, possible unconscious cultural themes in that media and keep those thoughts in mind. Not as a creative guide line. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 08:27
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blackguy32 posted:That being said, I disagree that FemFreq is preaching to the choir, I think they are doing exactly the thing that they should be doing, and that is reaching out to people who aren't openly hostile to their viewpoints but may just be uninformed about much of the stuff in gaming. . I honestly don't. Most of speaking tours, while thankfully aren't gaming conventions, are feminist places of thought and places were feminism 101 is well known and talked about already. The Witcher 2/3, a lot of Obsidian/Black Isle games, Silent Hill 2-4, Amnesia, and the No More Heroes series had pretty quality writing.
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Jul 1, 2015 08:30
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mind the walrus posted:* System Shock 2 works for the same way Bioshock did. Turns out taking a lot of ideas from Half-Life's structure and stapling on audio tapes can work exceptionally well. Look how wrong you are, both the "half-life ideas" and audiotapes are actually from System Shock 1
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Jul 1, 2015 08:31
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blackguy32 posted:That being said, I disagree that FemFreq is preaching to the choir, I think they are doing exactly the thing that they should be doing, and that is reaching out to people who aren't openly hostile to their viewpoints but may just be uninformed about much of the stuff in gaming. Femfreq videos are a hodgepodge of truisms and questionable tastes and Anita herself did absolutely every possible thing to smear and antagonize gamers. You have a weird definition of reaching out, and I think the content that's being "reached out" is garbage. If you want an honest feminist critique by a real gamer who knows both feminism and gaming watch Liana K Totalizator fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 08:34
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Dapper Dan posted:It does in a large majority of criticism, but by its very nature cultural critique needs to eliminate context. You need to get a creative work to its basement foundations. For example, the Bechdel Test is a form of cultural criticism that strips away context. This is done in order to get a conversation about how women are represented in film. It is not supposed to be an actual test you use even though many people wrongly use it in this fashion. Thank you, it makes more sense now, seems worth reading more about it.
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Jul 1, 2015 08:35
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NutritiousSnack posted:I honestly don't. Most of speaking tours, while thankfully aren't gaming conventions, are feminist places of thought and places were feminism 101 is well known and talked about already. No More Heroes is another one of those games that served as a cultural critique of masculinity (specifically masculine expression through consumer culture in Japan) and it went over the heads of critics and the game was slammed for being sexist.
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Jul 1, 2015 08:37
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computer parts posted:*Just as a sidenote, when people said "casual" it was often a codeword for "women". How often did you hear "Oh women are gamers? I guess if you count those Facebook games I honestly think this has nothing do with it whatsoever. Keep in mind while GamerGate was laughing it's rear end off at a lot indie bombs going off they've delighted far more in press embarrassment than anything. Totalizator posted:Femfreq videos are a hodgepodge of truisms and questionable tastes and Anita herself did absolutely every possible thing to smear and antagonize gamers. You have a weird definition of reaching out, and I think the content that's being "reached out" is garbage. If you want an honest feminist critique by a real gamer who knows both feminism and gaming watch Liana K FremFreq's videos are often inaccurate in places and make disingenuous/sensationalist points, but overall with the exception of weird poo poo like that Hitman thing, not antagonist in the slightest. Let us English posted:No More Heroes is another one of those games that served as a cultural critique of masculinity (specifically masculine expression through consumer culture in Japan) and it went over the heads of critics and the game was slammed for being sexist. It was insanely coherent and intelligent with an massive level of love in it's message too, to a point where it's almost weird as gently caress that they somehow flew over their heads twice. I mean maybe it's because Travis didn't go on a monologue when turning sex with a 19 year old girl stating the he grew up beyond that poo poo finally and he would be just hurting her in that type of relationship. NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 08:46
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NutritiousSnack posted:FremFreq's videos are often inaccurate in places and make disingenuous/sensationalist points, but overall with the exception of weird poo poo like that Hitman thing, not antagonist in the slightest. I mean her media presence and entire "critic" career absolutely rides on the premise that gamers are barbaric, unwashed sexists who constantly harass her (and keep in mind she herself posted a selection of "harassing" tweets where actual harassment was mixed in with tweets like "i disagree" and "gently caress you", so she either is incapable of, or consciously refuses to tell dissagreement and harassment apart from one another), and need baby-level truisms such as "women are frequently sexualized in games" and "damsel in distress trope strips the female character of her agency". Totalizator fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 08:55
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Totalizator posted:Femfreq videos are a hodgepodge of truisms and questionable tastes and Anita herself did absolutely every possible thing to smear and antagonize gamers. You have a weird definition of reaching out, and I think the content that's being "reached out" is garbage. If you want an honest feminist critique by a real gamer who knows both feminism and gaming watch Liana K I don't think Anita has antagonized gamers in her videos at all. She pretty much keeps her focus on the games themselves. And that is fine that you think the content is garbage. Nothing wrong with differing opinions. Also, Anita is a real gamer, I have no idea why you would think otherwise.
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Jul 1, 2015 08:56
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blackguy32 posted:I don't think Anita has antagonized gamers in her videos at all. She pretty much keeps her focus on the games themselves. And that is fine that you think the content is garbage. Nothing wrong with differing opinions. Also, Anita is a real gamer, I have no idea why you would think otherwise. She's flip flopped a lot on she takes that term for herself. Though the general story of "getting into gaming when the game boy came out, and having no interest in poo poo like Doom and leaving as she got older, only to come back when the Wii came out" is so far from unique I don't see how people doubt it. She isn't into the hardcore scene whatever though.
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Jul 1, 2015 09:11
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I think Anita fits the "Gamer" definition as practiced by most people in the world and even if she didn't, I don't think not being a gamer somehow makes you incapable of criticizing the content of games. I think however she is not worth circling the wagons around, since she's a bad critic and the laser focus both sides put on her did nothing but damage to the idea that feminist critique of games is both nessesary and needed if that's the best it can do. Leave her to slapfight with gamergate forever and back someone who has more informed opinions and can express them better.
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Jul 1, 2015 09:22
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NutritiousSnack posted:She's flip flopped a lot on she takes that term for herself. Though the general story of "getting into gaming when the game boy came out, and having no interest in poo poo like Doom and leaving as she got older, only to come back when the Wii came out" is so far from unique I don't see how people doubt it. She isn't into the hardcore scene whatever though. "hardcore scene" lmao ahhahhaa
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Jul 1, 2015 09:24
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like it's punk rock or something ahhahhaa
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Jul 1, 2015 09:24
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gnarlyhotep posted:"hardcore scene" lmao PC term for "poopsocker"
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Jul 1, 2015 09:25
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gnarlyhotep posted:"hardcore scene" lmao The Hardcore Gamer that's into weird esoteric poo poo like Eve Online and competitive level play of Street Fighter and Counter Strike. Not my fault all nerd terms are loving dumb.
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Jul 1, 2015 09:36
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NutritiousSnack posted:The Hardcore Gamer that's into weird esoteric poo poo like Eve Online and competitive level play of Street Fighter and Counter Strike. Not my fault all nerd terms are loving dumb. lol you're already in for a probation for some other poo poo in D&D lmao
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Jul 1, 2015 09:40
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NutritiousSnack posted:It was insanely coherent and intelligent with an massive level of love in it's message too, to a point where it's almost weird as gently caress that they somehow flew over their heads twice. I mean maybe it's because Travis didn't go on a monologue when turning sex with a 19 year old girl stating the he grew up beyond that poo poo finally and he would be just hurting her in that type of relationship. You can never dumb things down enough sometimes
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Jul 1, 2015 09:55
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Squinty posted:It's not a fake made up fantasy world, it's a made up fantasy world based on Polish traditions and folklore. Actually, it tales a lot from Tolkien (dwarves and elves) and Grimm's fairy tales. Of course it's a Polish game, but much less so than people like to claim. Totalizator posted:I think Anita fits the "Gamer" definition as practiced by most people in the world and even if she didn't, I don't think not being a gamer somehow makes you incapable of criticizing the content of games. I think however she is not worth circling the wagons around, since she's a bad critic and the laser focus both sides put on her did nothing but damage to the idea that feminist critique of games is both nessesary and needed if that's the best it can do. But then how are you going to watch Tumblr burn?
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Jul 1, 2015 10:13
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Actually, it tales a lot from Tolkien (dwarves and elves) and Grimm's fairy tales. Actually you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm Polish and this game is rooted firmly in Polish culture even if it imports Tolkien dwarves and elves (and does it largely to tackle issues of racism). Poland being 99,8% white actually relates more to parallels to bigotry of other cultures that are also white, then to American issues. Unless you live in a big city you can go your entire life without seeing a PoC and even then you'd need to use public transport near universities a lot or work in a multinational corporation. Also multiple assertions in this thread from American posters that since the game is sold in America it needs to carter to Americans is simply offensive to me. The game is also sold in Russia would you be ok with no homosexual characters because it offends people there and is actually illegal? If the game is sold in China should it reflect demographics there and reskin all characters to Asians? In African movies do you complain there isn't enough Asians or white people? It's not a game made by people from your culture and if it offends you, don't buy it. Totalizator fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 10:21
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e: pressed quote instead of edit, my bad.BravestOfTheLamps posted:
Tumblr will defend Anita until their last dying breath because they're tribalistic idiots. Notice how I'm posting this on SA and not on Tumblr.
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Jul 1, 2015 10:23
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Witcher is not very Polish-like: there are very authentic forests, characters drink a lot, the original books by Sapkowsky have the flavor, but in general the game world is homogenized in the favor of AAA tastes, much like Metro was.
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Jul 1, 2015 10:28
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fatherboxx posted:Witcher is not very Polish-like: there are very authetic forests, characters drink a lot, the original books by Sapkowsky have the flavor, but in genera the game world is homogenized in the favor of AAA tastes, much like Metro was. The game loses a lot of cultural nuance in the english translation. Witcher 2 was more homogenized and actually got flak for it from local fans but 1 and 3 stay as true to the books as they can.
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Jul 1, 2015 10:30
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