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Exmond posted:So i agree that hitman has creepy parts in it (Assassin nuns im looking at you). Now I don't know how to argue this since you haven't seen the video and I don't know if you have played the game. But the footage anita shows is something you would have to go out of the way to do and is penalized in the game. I just said I played the game. it's very mildly penalized, but from other people's descriptions, you're really missing the point of what she says. quote:So she shows parts of the game that a lot of people wouldn't even see, the game doesn't encourage you to do and might be argued that is due to the game engine and the game having strippers in it and not due to some developer/player misogyny. She then puts this over a voice over that makes the player sound like some kind of sexual deviant. I don't think its accurately showing a problem part of the game, especially when there are other examples (Assassin nuns...) or at the very least people who have played the game should be able to point out some flaws in that footage. How do you think the game has strippers in it if the developer didn't put them there? Again, this seems like nitpicky criticism that misses the overall point: it is not about individual games, it is about how common this is in games in general. I can think of a ton of totally unnecessary strip clubs in a ton of games. Even leaving aside GTA, where the strip club sequences are so boring I don't get why anyone ever willingly participates in them, there's the Saboteur, Mafia 2, metro last light, Max Payne 3, Mass Effect, Call of Juarez, Morrowind--they're all over the place. In general, the strippers have zero personality and/or are portrayed as total airheads or fuckdolls. I like games, I've never been like "Strip club level, all right!" And they've never been used in any sort of interesting way that I've ever seen, even when it doesn't have the cludgy, awkward-as-gently caress mechanics of GTA and is just a setting.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:18
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afeelgoodpoop posted:This is actually just the current propagandist narrative. That video sums the whole thing up nicely, thanks.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:19
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Obdicut posted:
What is Sexism will be colored by the person's philosophy. Since Anita is a sex negative feminist, everything that could remotely be sexualized is sexist. Which again, is trivially true, but she stops there so it boils down to things she doesn't like = sexist, so v  vI just prefer a more honest characterization without couching it in subjective terms.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:19
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Holy poo poo just freeze the screen at :59 when he shows his example of the female protagonists gaming has always had. He misses the point so hard he leaves orbit.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:19
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He specifically shows their were more female and minority leads in games announced at e3 in 2014 than in 2015, and the narratives being pushed between them being complete opposites.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:19
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Obdicut posted:
My favorite part in Mass Effect is when you talk to this Asari (note: the blue big titted race) bartender and she basically says "oh yeah all of us go and act as strippers for our first hundred years or so".
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Jul 1, 2015 18:20
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afeelgoodpoop posted:He specifically shows their were more female and minority leads in games announced at e3 in 2014 than in 2015, and the narratives being pushed between them being complete opposites. And if you zoom and enhance, you can clearly see that the steel beams were not melted by the burning jet fuel.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:20
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Powercrazy posted:What is Sexism will be colored by the person's philosophy. Since Anita is a sex negative feminist, everything that could remotely be sexualized is sexist. I haven't seen anything that makes this claim (about the person who you really don't care about but can't stop posting about) true. quote:Which again, is trivially true, but she stops there so it boils down to things she doesn't like = sexist, so v I've been a game dev and I've played games my whole life. Games are chock full of sexism, all over the place. This is hardly a stunning revelation to anyone with the slightest awareness.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:21
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Powercrazy posted:sex negative feminist You heard this word once and think it gives you intellectual credibility despite the fact you don't know what it means. If you think condemning sexualized female characters created by males primarily for the enjoyment of other males is an example of being sex negative you are insane.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:22
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afeelgoodpoop posted:He specifically shows their were more female and minority leads in games announced at e3 in 2014 than in 2015, and the narratives being pushed between them being complete opposites. What does citing E3 announcements have to do with the overall trend in indie gaming, where most social justice development actually takes place? Isn't this video getting gamergate narratives confused? Powercrazy posted:Since Anita is a sex negative feminist, Can sex negative and sex positive feminist be in the same room without annihiliating each other?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:22
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Powercrazy posted:What is Sexism will be colored by the person's philosophy. Since Anita is a sex negative feminist, everything that could remotely be sexualized is sexist. Which again, is trivially true, but she stops there so it boils down to things she doesn't like = sexist, so v Please cite your sources that Anita is sex-negative. I'm sure this is easy to do.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:22
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afeelgoodpoop posted:He specifically shows their were more female and minority leads in games announced at e3 in 2014 than in 2015, and the narratives being pushed between them being complete opposites. lol "from 2014 to 2015"
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Jul 1, 2015 18:23
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computer parts posted:My favorite part in Mass Effect is when you talk to this Asari (note: the blue big titted race) bartender and she basically says "oh yeah all of us go and act as strippers for our first hundred years or so". "Hi, I'm a Justicar, we dispense strict, cruel but fair justice according to a strict code that mandates my cleavage be visible at all times". I mean, christ, even for the most austere character they have to have her have enormous globular breasts and be wearing a skimpy outfit. poo poo like that I don't like partially because it breaks my immersion. Why the gently caress would a 'real' Samara dress that way?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:23
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Obdicut posted:"Hi, I'm a Justicar, we dispense strict, cruel but fair justice according to a strict code that mandates my cleavage be visible at all times". I mean, christ, even for the most austere character they have to have her have enormous globular breasts and be wearing a skimpy outfit. poo poo like that I don't like partially because it breaks my immersion. Why the gently caress would a 'real' Samara dress that way? Wow, looks like you hate agency.  But seriously, let me dig up the 4chan post where a guy advocates using social justice language to conceal your real beliefs when talking to "SJWs".
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Jul 1, 2015 18:24
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The narrative seems like just a way for them to try and distance themselves from their grating diversity pushes while saving face, why else would you claim this e3 is good about diversity representation when you lamented at a greater amount of minority representation the year before? I take it as a good sign that hopefully many of these narrative pushers will pull back on their political campaigns.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:25
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I've happily played both male and female characters in games over the years, There are some badass both female and male protagonists I've enjoyed playing over the years. Why does anyone care about the gender ratio? What does it matter? People have far too much time on their hands to sit and analyse this stuff. If a game offends you in some way, just don't play it and get on with your life. There are plenty of far more important issues that people could be spending all this energy debating! edit: I'm intrigued as to what a 'sex-negative feminist' is. This just gets crazier
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Jul 1, 2015 18:25
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Nicomo posted:I've happily played both male and female characters in games over the years, Normal people like to talk, and to think.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:26
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afeelgoodpoop posted:The narrative seems like just a way for them to try and distance themselves from their grating diversity pushes while saving face, why else would you claim this e3 is good about diversity representation when you lamented at a greater amount of minority representation the year before? Who are 'them'? People who were wrong about thinking the situation had improved? quote:I take it as a good sign that hopefully many of these narrative pushers will pull back on their political campaigns. Um, given that the amount of minority and female protagonists went down, doesn't that show the problem isn't actually getting any better? Nicomo posted:I've happily played both male and female characters in games over the years, You haven't read the thread, right? These questions have basically already been asked and answered. You're basically saying "Why does sexism matter as long as there is anything non-sexist out there to consume"? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 18:26
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afeelgoodpoop posted:The narrative seems like just a way for them to try and distance themselves from their grating diversity pushes while saving face, why else would you claim this e3 is good about diversity representation when you lamented at a greater amount of minority representation the year before? Has it occurred to you yet that the near universal scorn and derision you receive when discussing "grating diversity pushes" outside of the safe bubble you've created might suggest that the response to gaming being more inclusive is not as negative as you desire?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:27
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afeelgoodpoop posted:The narrative seems like just a way for them to try and distance themselves from their grating diversity pushes while saving face, why else would you claim this e3 is good about diversity representation when you lamented at a greater amount of minority representation the year before? It's more likely that your conclusions are incomprehensible her because your perception is incorrect and you're trying to explain a narrative which by default cannot be coherently explained because nobody shares your basic assumptions about the motivations of groups which they do not even believe exist.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:28
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Nicomo posted:There are some badass both female and male protagonists I've enjoyed playing over the years. Why does anyone care about the gender ratio? What does it matter? People have far too much time on their hands to sit and analyse this stuff. If a game offends you in some way, just don't play it and get on with your life. There are plenty of far more important issues that people could be spending all this energy debating! It doesn't exactly portray gaming as a mature medium when the very basic level of critical analysis applied to literally every other form of consumable media is so appalling to you.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:29
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Has it occurred to you yet that the near universal scorn and derision you receive when discussing "grating diversity pushes" outside of the safe bubble you've created might suggest that the response to gaming being more inclusive is not as negative as you desire? Their has been a small amount of journalists who did complete 180s on pushing common sjw gaming narratives and took it upon themselves to criticize whatever sudden manifestations occur from it instead. Now, I'm not saying I don't believe a large portion of nerds think that people like me are scum, but I do believe they themselves are not aware how large of a group we are aswell.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:31
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afeelgoodpoop posted:Their has been a small amount of journalists who did complete 180s on pushing common sjw gaming narratives and took it upon themselves to criticize whatever sudden manifestations occur from it instead. Now, I'm not saying I don't believe a large portion of nerds think that people like me are scum, but I do believe they themselves are not aware how large of a group we are aswell. It seems more likely to me that you've just decided that you're starting to get one over on your shadowboxing opponents. Can you show us these articles or whatever?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:32
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afeelgoodpoop posted:but I do believe they themselves are not aware how large of a group we are aswell. I tremble at the thought of waking the dreaded silent majority
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Jul 1, 2015 18:33
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Obdicut posted:I haven't seen anything that makes this claim (about the person who you really don't care about but can't stop posting about) true. AH HA, I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT *THING* AND YOU RESPONDED, WHY DO YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT *THING* Popular Thug Drink posted:Can sex negative and sex positive feminist be in the same room without annihiliating each other? I don't know, but it's a lovely part of feminism because if you truly believe feminism is gender equality, you have to look beyond feminism to determine why in society genders aren't equal. I say it's because of economic coercion supported by class divisions.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Has it occurred to you yet that the near universal scorn and derision you receive when discussing "grating diversity pushes" outside of the safe bubble you've created might suggest that the response to gaming being more inclusive is not as negative as you desire? Identity politics IS grating.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:35
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Powercrazy posted:AH HA, I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT *THING* AND YOU RESPONDED, WHY DO YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT *THING* So hunter-gatherer bands are by definition incapable of sexism?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:35
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Powercrazy posted:I don't know, but it's a lovely part of feminism because if you truly believe feminism is gender equality, you have to look beyond feminism to determine why in society genders aren't equal. I say it's because of economic coercion supported by class divisions. You are a walking abomination of half understood philosophy
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Jul 1, 2015 18:36
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Powercrazy posted:I don't know, but it's a lovely part of feminism because if you truly believe feminism is gender equality, you have to look beyond feminism to determine why in society genders aren't equal. I say it's because of economic coercion supported by class divisions. I don't think sex-negative feminism is a real thing that actually exists, instead of being a pejorative term that is a backhanded way of calling someone frigid or a prude. I don't see what Anita Sarkeesian's statements on video games have to do with the role of an individual's attitudes towards sex re: feminist politics.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:38
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Powercrazy posted:AH HA, I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT *THING* AND YOU RESPONDED, WHY DO YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT *THING* Okay, captain capslock, there was actually nothing in that post that referenced Anita, so why did you talk about her? Here's the post: Obdicut posted:Do you think that having a strip club level is pretty common in games, even non gritty crime drama games? See? nothing about her, a general question about why you say this weird phrase. And yet you can't help yourself from talking about her and accusing her of being 'sex-negative'. Really, dude, if you didn't realize about yourself maybe take a moment here. I didn't ask you a question about her. quote:I don't know, but it's a lovely part of feminism because if you truly believe feminism is gender equality, you have to look beyond feminism to determine why in society genders aren't equal. I say it's because of economic coercion supported by class divisions. Why would that result in gender discrimination, given that gender isn't a class or an economic group?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:39
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Powercrazy posted:AH HA, I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT *THING* AND YOU RESPONDED, WHY DO YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT *THING* Can you please define what a sex-negative feminist is and give explicit examples of Anita being one? Or is this another one of your lies?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:40
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Obdicut posted:
Why can't gender be a class?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:40
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Mel Mudkiper posted:It doesn't exactly portray gaming as a mature medium when the very basic level of critical analysis applied to literally every other form of consumable media is so appalling to you. Games are an important narrative medium, and complex art, so please stop trying to analyze and critique them.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:40
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Obdicut posted:Why would that result in gender discrimination, given that gender isn't a class or an economic group? Its classic grade-school level Marxism of trying to eliminate any factor that cannot be comprehended as a white male
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Jul 1, 2015 18:40
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Powercrazy posted:Why can't gender be a class? By your definition, are hunter-gatherer bands incapable of being sexist?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:41
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Nicomo posted:That was the original controversy that sparked everything off, that the internet went nuts over. I read a bit about that and assumed it had blown over. I had no idea it had morphed this far into an depth intellectual discussion about the place of women in video games. Perhaps I'll read back to see what exactly the big deal is. Not arguing here, just asking about this point. afeelgoodpoop posted:This is actually just the current propagandist narrative. Who What Now posted:Yes, that is indeed a literal propaganda video meant to demonize people who aren't pro-GamerGate. Great job? Popular Thug Drink posted:Do you think anyone is actually convinced by biased youtubes that nobody is going to watch? This is the exact style of argumentation that 9/11 conspiracy theorists tried on these forums for years. Mel Mudkiper posted:I'm glad I am not the only one growing exhausted by random youtube rants from dudes on the internet being cited as evidence                      I think we can gleam a sense of who they view as a common enemy, characteristics of said enemy, and the reach and power of the enemy. afeelgoodpoop posted:The narrative seems like just a way for them to try and distance themselves from their grating diversity pushes while saving face, why else would you claim this e3 is good about diversity representation when you lamented at a greater amount of minority representation the year before? Assepoester fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 18:41
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I don't think sex-negative feminism is a real thing that actually exists, instead of being a pejorative term that is a backhanded way of calling someone frigid or a prude. I don't see what Anita Sarkeesian's statements on video games have to do with the role of an individual's attitudes towards sex re: feminist politics. Meh. I'd accept this. But then I question what feminist politics are. If feminism means treating genders as equal, there isn't really much to discuss is there?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:41
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Powercrazy posted:Why can't gender be a class? Okay, define 'class' in a way that makes any sense at all that could include gender. And again: Obdicut posted:Okay, captain capslock, there was actually nothing in that post that referenced Anita, so why did you talk about her? Can you actually think about this? You just had an all caps rant about how you were only talking about her because I asked a question about her, but I really didn't. This makes you look pretty crazy.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:41
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Powercrazy posted:Meh. I'd accept this. But then I question what feminist politics are. If feminism means treating genders as equal, there isn't really much to discuss is there? Can you define what, exactly, you think feminism is?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:43
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Who What Now posted:Can you define what, exactly, you think feminism is?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:43
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