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Oh Snapple! posted:my general perception of devs like this is that to them, casuals are some gross thing they have to put up with for money so that they can keep the game going for the real players There is this belief among some devs that the Totalbiscuits of the world talk for the majority of casuals and want elitist raiding content they never get to see because it gives them something to aspire to.
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Jul 1, 2015 00:09
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BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:Lol at the first guy going to Riot. They hired the idiot who used to CM for Star Trek Online, so they'll hire anyone. Byolante posted:There is this belief among some devs that the Totalbiscuits of the world talk for the majority of casuals and want elitist raiding content they never get to see because it gives them something to aspire to. Those players are the people who will complain the hardest about a fight they've never done being nerfed or a pointlessly long grind being lessened, crying about the game going too casual. The Wildstar fanbase.
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Jul 1, 2015 01:02
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Byolante posted:There is this belief among some devs that the Totalbiscuits of the world talk for the majority of casuals and want elitist raiding content they never get to see because it gives them something to aspire to. Because Totalbiscuit is a mong?
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Jul 1, 2015 13:01
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i don't think totalbiscuit is a good example of a hardcore demographic considering he made a big whiny video about how he was quitting wow forever because the cataclysm dungeons were too hard
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Jul 1, 2015 13:58
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totalbiscut is a useless fat piece of poo poo who won genetics lottery with a good sounding voice.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:22
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sword_man.gif posted:i don't think totalbiscuit is a good example of a hardcore demographic considering he made a big whiny video about how he was quitting wow forever because the cataclysm dungeons were too hard He's definitely one of those "temporarily-embarrassed hardcore" types who claims to enjoy playing a game with content he'll never see when it's relevant and living vicariously through the achievements of progression raiders, which is a sadly prevalent attitude in the MMO community
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Jul 1, 2015 14:35
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Holyshoot posted:totalbiscut is a useless fat piece of poo poo who won genetics lottery with a good sounding voice. Sounds more like he won genetics church raffle and not the lottery.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:39
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The Chairman posted:He's definitely one of those "temporarily-embarrassed hardcore" types who claims to enjoy playing a game with content he'll never see when it's relevant and living vicariously through the achievements of progression raiders, which is a sadly prevalent attitude in the MMO community Well it's a popular attitude among forum posters, not so much among people who actually play and just don't eat poo poo sleep the forums.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:07
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sword_man.gif posted:i don't think totalbiscuit is a good example of a hardcore demographic considering he made a big whiny video about how he was quitting wow forever because the cataclysm dungeons were too hard Like many people shouting for the game to get harder, they never actually do any of the hard content.
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Jul 1, 2015 19:51
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In Cata they made the 5 man heroics ball crushingly hard and the "hardcore" players were happy because it was what they asked for. Then the other 99% of the player base was pissed off so they were nerfed and the "hardcore" bitched and moaned about casuals and quit. Nothing of value was lost.
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Jul 1, 2015 20:38
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BigPaddy posted:In Cata they made the 5 man heroics ball crushingly hard and the "hardcore" players were happy because it was what they asked for. Then the other 99% of the player base was pissed off so they were nerfed and the "hardcore" bitched and moaned about casuals and quit. Nothing of value was lost. In a guild group I truly, truly never had an issue with Cata heroics. You had to pay attention but they weren't nearly as bad as people bitch about
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Jul 1, 2015 21:22
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Enemu posted:In a guild group I truly, truly never had an issue with Cata heroics. You had to pay attention but they weren't nearly as bad as people bitch about They were just so loving LONG. Like everyone would fight about the "run away from the guy" optional boss in Grim Batol, whether he was too hard, but then there was 10 years of trash before him that everyone agreed was loving terrible.
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Jul 1, 2015 21:31
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Enemu posted:In a guild group I truly, truly never had an issue with Cata heroics. You had to pay attention but they weren't nearly as bad as people bitch about Two things: You ran with a guild group, so you're already talking about a completely different subset of players than what most people talk about for this subject. "They weren't nearly as bad" isn't a good way to defend something. If you have to start out your list of pros with "isn't a serial killer" then we're going to run into a lot of problems in the list very quickly. Cata heroics were garbage because they weren't good, and the difference between "meh" and "wow this is literally killing my family" isn't as important as the difference between "meh" and "wow this dungeon was fantastic blizzard keep taking my money." Well, unless the dungeons were actually 100% killing your family, then it's a bigger difference, but you get my point.
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Jul 1, 2015 21:33
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Not always hard, but often tedious. Two things often conflated, unfortunately (as someone who was there for AQ40, I can tell you they are not the same). Grim Batol was an endless wasteland of trash to CC, and it didn't feel skillful, just time consuming.
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Jul 1, 2015 21:35
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Enemu posted:In a guild group I truly, truly never had an issue with Cata heroics. You had to pay attention but they weren't nearly as bad as people bitch about Most of the content "isn't nearly as bad" when you have a coordinated group for it. The problem is that those heroics were both too long and too hard for the average group of random strangers, and for a lot of people that was all you could get. At the time I was in a small guild, so I couldn't rely on getting enough people I knew together to run them. So I had to do them in LFG, which meant a 45 minute wait for a group, and then 2 hours in the dungeon itself (and sometimes we couldn't even clear it and the group disbanded). I quickly gave up on getting geared in heroics, and ended up just not playing at all.
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Jul 1, 2015 21:41
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There is definitely a line between difficulty and tedium. Take the Devil's Lair strike in Destiny vs the Vault of Glass. In the former, there's a tank boss that instantly kills anyone who gets too close to it, is surrounded by adds, and takes a good 15 minutes of shooting and hiding from its gun to kill. There's nothing that separates the tank boss from the chumps surrounding it except how much damage it can give and take. (Disclaimer: Destiny is the only game I've raided in, and even then only on Normal mode.) The Templar boss from Vault of Glass on the other hand, is much more nuanced. Occasionally you have to kill (fairly weak) Oracles that randomly appear around the area, and it occasionally traps everybody in domes that the raid members have to shoot out of, and you have to hit the boss with a blast from a specific Relic in order to damage it. Other than that, the boss isn't that much tougher nor does much more damage than the trash that spawns with it. Instead of hiding and shooting for 15 minutes, it's more like a waltz you have your character dance to bring it down. The raid was also good about introducing new mechanics slowly, with multiple save points right after a new mechanic so you don't have to repeat everything again. It can also go too far in the other direction, where you have to do a bunch of steps perfectly or the raid wipes and has to start a 30-minute+ fight over again, which could get tedious fast. I wish there were more bosses in video games that aren't just bullet/arrow sponges, but that's difficult to pull off for a PuG.
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Jul 1, 2015 22:14
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Nemo2342 posted:Most of the content "isn't nearly as bad" when you have a coordinated group for it. The problem is that those heroics were both too long and too hard for the average group of random strangers, and for a lot of people that was all you could get. This was more or less how it worked for me. I was in a small guild of friends, maybe ~5 of us with 80s. Two heard about how heroics were and just weren't interested in going through that poo poo, choosing to progress through other means. One was a supreme altoholic and was having more fun taking stuff through the updated 1-60 content. Guild runs were basically out, is the point. So for the most part I got to sit through 45 minute DPS queues for 1-2 hour dungeons that whatever group I was placed with could potentially not even be capable of completing. I did get to group with a small goon guild that was also on the server at the time here and there when they had a spot, and those went much more smoothly and could even be fun. But by this point the LFD tool was firmly established from Wrath, and by and large people expected to be able to continue to clear content through it. And the heroics were just flatout not designed with this in mind, and even one weak link could gently caress the entire run. This already made dealing with heroics a very unrewarding experience, but they also coupled it with the "making epics epic again" poo poo wherein there was no actual new loot in them. Just the same blues you probably already had from normal modes with a green "Heroic" line affixed to them. The stats were better, obviously, but that was it. No new models or looks for you to attain. I don't mind it as much nowadays, but at the time it was basically endemic of what Cata heroics were: A lot of loving friction for very little reward. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 22:26
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Oh Snapple! posted:This was more or less how it worked for me. I was in a small guild of friends, maybe ~5 of us with 80s. Two heard about how heroics were and just weren't interested in going through that poo poo, choosing to progress through other means. One was a supreme altoholic and was having more fun taking stuff through the updated 1-60 content. Guild runs were basically out, is the point. So for the most part I got to sit through 45 minute DPS queues for 1-2 hour dungeons that whatever group I was placed with could potentially not even be capable of completing. I did get to group with a small goon guild that was also on the server at the time here and there when they had a spot, and those went much more smoothly and could even be fun. But by this point the LFD tool was firmly established from Wrath, and by and large people expected to be able to continue to clear content through it. And the heroics were just flatout not designed with this in mind, and even one weak link could gently caress the entire run. The only time I ever pugged Cata heroics was when my death knight was fully raid geared and could solo the instances. The four Jenkem Joes missed an interrupt, entire group is dead, now you get to watch me play the game for a quarter hour!
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Jul 1, 2015 23:43
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Thunderbro posted:The only time I ever pugged Cata heroics was when my death knight was fully raid geared and could solo the instances. The four Jenkem Joes missed an interrupt, entire group is dead, now you get to watch me play the game for a quarter hour! I did this to my guild's offnight group on heigan if they just absolutely screwed the putsch and all died. Prot paladin was pretty sweet in wrath, and it was a good way to get the offnighters to realize that mechanics matter or else they get to sit there and watch me do them for 20 minutes.
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Jul 2, 2015 02:08
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BigPaddy posted:In Cata they made the 5 man heroics ball crushingly hard and the "hardcore" players were happy because it was what they asked for. Then the other 99% of the player base was pissed off so they were nerfed and the "hardcore" bitched and moaned about casuals and quit. Nothing of value was lost. It's important to note the other 99% of WoW players are still "hardcore" by any other standards so if they are angry about stuff being too hard that's a valid complaint. The "hardcore" WoW players literally play upwards of 6 hours a day and they get angry whenever blizzard tries to gently caress with the TIME = POWER formula.
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Jul 2, 2015 02:44
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So is this game worth giving a shot when it goes F2P?
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Jul 2, 2015 02:53
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Obscurity posted:So is this game worth giving a shot when it goes F2P? This is a company who looked at Vanagard flopping, the most hardcore EQ MMO, and said they weren't hardcore ENOUGH. Unless top management changes, expect this in F2P mode to be just as lovely.
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Jul 2, 2015 03:00
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Obscurity posted:So is this game worth giving a shot when it goes F2P? no
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Jul 2, 2015 04:15
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Obscurity posted:So is this game worth giving a shot when it goes F2P? pick a game at random from the MMOHMO thread list and you'll pick a game better than Wildstar
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Jul 2, 2015 04:31
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It might be fun to goonrush the game and annoy everyone in the main town until we get banned.
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Jul 2, 2015 04:47
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The Chairman posted:pick a game at random from the MMOHMO thread list and you'll pick a game better than Wildstar This one is pretty good 
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Jul 2, 2015 04:50
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It's okay
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Jul 2, 2015 07:08
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Byolante posted:There is this belief among some devs that the Totalbiscuits of the world talk for the majority of casuals and want elitist raiding content they never get to see because it gives them something to aspire to. thanks now i dislike that obnoxious man even more
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Jul 2, 2015 10:28
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TB made a 30 minute video decrying the casualization of WoW and quitting forever. Then it turned out he'd literally done zero of the raids and only two of the hard mode dungeons. You'd think a 23 year old law graduate with an IQ of 155 would be less of a baby.
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Jul 2, 2015 10:37
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actually I've found the opposite is usually true
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Jul 2, 2015 13:49
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BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:You'd think a 23 year old law graduate with an IQ of 155 would be less of a baby. This is exactly what a failed lawyer who uses IQ as a metric of human worth would be like
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Jul 2, 2015 16:34
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Two things: "Not nearly as bad" meaning "actually the right difficulty level for week 1 or week 2." I'll agree with all the posters saying that the trash was annoying and poo poo got tedious at a certain point, but boss design and tuning, in my opinion, was really good. And before LFR heroics were THE way to gear up for raiding, and cata tier 1 raids were, by all accounts, pretty solid and were loving hard in heroic gear. The progression from normals > heroics > raids felt better in cata. Now I'm not defending cata as an expansion, Uldum is arguably my favorite visual zone in an MMO but post first tier of raiding it became a steaming turd.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:41
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The Chairman posted:pick a game at random from the MMOHMO thread list and you'll pick a game better than Wildstar I have to disagree. Wildstar was terrible but Archeage was a total dumpster fire with pay-to-win mechanics on top that gave people dumping thousands of dollars in god like status in PvP. Until hackers realized hitpoints and buffs were client side. Then literal pedophiles started showing up.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:47
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SumYungGui posted:hitpoints and buffs were client side. What? Who would think this is a good idea for an MMO? I... why?
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Jul 2, 2015 16:54
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:What? Who would think this is a good idea for an MMO? I... why? Korea is known for quality progaming, not quality programming.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:57
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Enemu posted:"Not nearly as bad" meaning "actually the right difficulty level for week 1 or week 2." Please tell us more about why your experience is more valid than everyone else's who complained about it.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:58
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Please tell us more about why your experience is more valid than everyone else's who complained about it. It's not, at all, but the whole point of a discussion is to share different people's experiences and viewpoints. This is mine, take it with a grain of salt. If you don't think it's valid, ignore it.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:00
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Enemu posted:"Not nearly as bad" meaning "actually the right difficulty level for week 1 or week 2." After doing Cata heroics week 1 I know you're entirely wrong. Those dungeons had so many nerfs before they became remotely doable by normal people and even then were still awful. Groups having to bring multiple healers, have specific compositions, and other stupid poo poo in 5-man queueable dungeons. This was just to deal with the raw numbers, and not the really dumb garbage like instant-wipe interrupt mechanics (interrupts could miss) or spawning super fast adds that would instantly wipe your group if they touched anyone. Those video game dungeons also took more than a full loving hour to beat for good groups. They were fun if you wanted a mini raid, and utterly miserable if you wanted to get your weekly video game points, like mostly everyone. Also setting up multiple interrupt rotations, per boss, in stupid glitchy raids. T11 was awful too.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:02
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Enemu posted:It's not, at all, but the whole point of a discussion is to share different people's experiences and viewpoints. This is mine, take it with a grain of salt. If you don't think it's valid, ignore it. But if I ignore it I can't make fun of you for being actually wrong.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:06
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Thunderbro posted:After doing Cata heroics week 1 I know you're entirely wrong. Those dungeons had so many nerfs before they became remotely doable by normal people and even then were still awful. Groups having to bring multiple healers, have specific compositions, and other stupid poo poo in 5-man queueable dungeons. This was just to deal with the raw numbers, and not the really dumb garbage like instant-wipe interrupt mechanics (interrupts could miss) or spawning super fast adds that would instantly wipe your group if they touched anyone. Those video game dungeons also took more than a full loving hour to beat for good groups. They were fun if you wanted a mini raid, and utterly miserable if you wanted to get your weekly video game points, like mostly everyone. And iirc that's what Blizz was going for, difficulty level similar to raiding (which as prep for raiding imo they should be). That goal wasn't in line with the rewards, internet points, or time required to achieve those rewards/points. That's a different argument. The goalposts had been moved during Wrath establishing heroics as "get me my daily queue reward" and it was Blizzard's stated intention not to have cata heroics like that. They required more than a 5 man lfg pug, and did take longer than an hour, and were challenging and admittedly parts of them sucked. As designed, in a guild group, with effort put into learning fights and creating strategies, they were difficult but doable, and I had fun. The problem, as discussed, was that I was the minority of players that it was designed for, which was an abject fuckup by blizz.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:10
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