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Slanderer posted:So, you're saying that all criticism of a game is criticism of each and every developer, and you are taking this extremely personally? And how are their livelihoods being ruined? Ah, I see you are not aware that both sides are full of harassment, gamergate extremists will harass women with sexism and disgusting tweets, while the agg extremists tend to doxx and harass devs and other "influential" gamergate figures who they deem not inclusive enough. And jesus christ is this thread great at making poo poo up that other people said. Apologies but this is my last post here, I don't care enough about the subject to spend any more time on it, and it's pretty obvious i'd have to make a huge effortpost in order to explain my opinions sufficiently and i'd likely still by straw-manned by most of the thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2015 16:28
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Slanderer posted:How were they "colluding"? Colluding means they were doing something bad or illegal. It is kinda funny that one of the biggest GG outrages is journalists telling gamers that forcing Bioware to change something in their game just because the gamers didn't like it was kinda silly. They weren't asking them to change it because they thought it was morally wrong or did anything bad, just didn't like it.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:31
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Slanderer posted:How were they "colluding"? Colluding means they were doing something bad or illegal. This is very much up for debate but the things GameJourno list did which may be illegal is 1) Blacklisting Allistair Pinsof 2) Agreeing not to write articles about Kevin Dent The GameJourno list is very interesting as to me it is one of the few things that validated the whole "ethics in game journalism pieces". I feel if the industry was larger that having a private email list wouldn't of been so.. alarming..
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Jul 2, 2015 16:31
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Harry Joe posted:Ah, I see you are not aware that both sides are full of harassment, gamergate extremists will harass women with sexism and disgusting tweets, while the agg extremists tend to doxx and harass devs and other "influential" gamergate figures who they deem not inclusive enough. A reminder that you haven't addressed how exactly people have been left homeless and destitute because they refused to be forced to make feminist games.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:31
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Harry Joe posted:Ah, I see you are not aware that both sides are full of harassment, gamergate extremists will harass women with sexism and disgusting tweets, while the agg extremists tend to doxx and harass devs and other "influential" gamergate figures who they deem not inclusive enough. For example?
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Jul 2, 2015 16:32
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Harry Joe posted:Ah, I see you are not aware that both sides are full of harassment, gamergate extremists will harass women with sexism and disgusting tweets, while the agg extremists tend to doxx and harass devs and other "influential" gamergate figures who they deem not inclusive enough. People would be more sympathetic if you were willing to provide accurate examples. A lot of the posters in this thread are rather high-strung, but I cant blame them when the response to anything about gamergate is "People who are opposed to Gamergate aint no saints!".
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Jul 2, 2015 16:32
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Exmond posted:This is very much up for debate but the things GameJourno list did which may be illegal is What is alarming about a private email list? I don't get this part at all.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:32
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Obdicut posted:I'm not sure why you think that booth being kicked out is a game dev being forced to do something. Can you explain? Further, from what I can tell they were kicked out because they came under false pretenses with the intention of derailing a panel about women in gaming. They didn't come under false pretenses at all, they switched the website on their application form a few times but informed Expo staff every time. As far as derailing, here is a recording of the panel they allegedly "derailed": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymkIiGRvtBg. Their discussion starts at 18:30. Can you point me to the part where they did anything worth getting thrown out and banned from the convention for life?
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Jul 2, 2015 16:33
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Cingulate posted:My proposition is both sides are actually to a large extent fighting straw men. GGer's are angry at insults or threats without majority support from the other side; anti-GGers have a much more hostile sexist imagine of GG than is the reality. Ah, then we are entirely in agreement. We would have a lot more unity without that, the actual positions of AGG and GG people are not that far from each other. Many GamerGater people seem to be no less approving of MORE games being made to appeal to niche markets- so long as they aren't all Gone Homes. Which, I would note, was actually happening anyway. AGG people, I can't imagine, would truly be against ethical reform as a whole. Even if a great many seem to feel it is impossible. Effectronica posted:Would you mind eschewing surplusage? Your post seems to boil down to asking why people have the temerity to believe things instead of being amoral pragmatists, but you used far more words than necessary or even acceptable to say that. One out of every five posts from you seems to be a plea for your opposition to kill themselves, and then you go right back to feeling you should be taken seriously for some reason. I'll take my constructive criticism from another source, thank you.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:34
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Exmond posted:The GameJourno list is very interesting as to me it is one of the few things that validated the whole "ethics in game journalism pieces". The problem with this is that literally every journalism/press industry has these mailing lists, they are a vital tool in fact-checking, sourcing, and coordinating news release so as to protect informants, whistle blowers, and similar sensitive targets.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:34
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Obdicut posted:What is alarming about a private email list? I don't get this part at all. Read about this if you have the time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList. Obviously not the same impact or the same severity, we are talking about videogames after all. But it is enough to leave a sour taste in my mouth and not like it.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:34
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Neurolimal posted:The problem with this is that literally every journalism/press industry has these mailing lists, they are a vital tool in fact-checking, sourcing, and coordinating news release so as to protect informants, whistle blowers, and similar sensitive targets. This sounds like a valid point. Do these email lists talk about their own industry and discuss what to write about, who to write about and who not to hire?
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Jul 2, 2015 16:35
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The Snark posted:One out of every five posts from you seems to be a plea for your opposition to kill themselves, and then you go right back to feeling you should be taken seriously for some reason. I'll take my constructive criticism from another source, thank you. That's forty-five words. Let me winnow it down for you: The Snark posted:I am allergic to dissenting beliefs. That's six words. A 750% increase in efficiency!
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Jul 2, 2015 16:36
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gently caress, I'm going to hate touching this poop again but...Harry Joe posted:Ah, I see you are not aware that both sides are full of harassment, gamergate extremists will harass women with sexism and disgusting tweets, while the agg extremists tend to doxx and harass devs and other "influential" gamergate figures who they deem not inclusive enough. Hi. I'm a game dev, and a GGer stalked me, found out my BOSS's personal information, called him in the middle of the night and screamed at him to fire me at once for being insulting to Gamergate as a movement. And then bragged about doing it in public as a way to intimidate me and anyone like me. Thank god I found out my boss is one of the few decent people in this industry that stands by his staff, because I was dead certain I was going to be fired for allowing it to happen at all. We're so loving expendable in this industry I wouldn't have been surprised. But please, I want to hear more about how it's AGG that's "full of harassment". Because my personal experience is in the realm of "never". And unfortunately for my sympathies for GG, I professionally and personally know a significant number of victims of GG harassment and zero who've been personally stalked or harassed, IN REAL LIFE, by someone who doesn't find them "inclusive" enough.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:37
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I am briefly back to say whoever bought effectronica that avatar is a huge whiny baby
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Jul 2, 2015 16:37
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The Snark posted:so long as they aren't all Gone Homes. I'm in full support of there being a lot more Gone Home style games.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:38
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Exmond posted:This is very much up for debate but the things GameJourno list did which may be illegal is 1. One guy recommended people against hiring Pinsof, which was lovely. But he had no power to coerce anyone else into doing so. 2. Again, no one coerced anyone. People agreed that they didn't want to give a platform to a lovely person like Kevin Dent.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:38
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Slanderer posted:How were they "colluding"? Colluding means they were doing something bad or illegal. It says it right on the page. http://deepfreeze.it/article.php?a=gjp
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Jul 2, 2015 16:40
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Exmond posted:This sounds like a valid point. Do these email lists talk about their own industry and discuss what to write about, who to write about and who not to hire? They are often incredibly informal, yes. They can be partial about subjects due to the confidence that it is a private mailing list. They do in fact brainstorm over what to write about, especially within specialist press, as it allows multiple takes on-the-spot, instead of a shotgun of opinion articles over a week. They generally dont have hiring power (that involves management), but I cant fault them for givingtheir opinions if questioned about who to hire/not hire. If you want a similar example of a complete nonscqndal, look up JournoList.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:40
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Obdicut posted:Can you point me to someone making that claim? http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080 quote:Despite Gamergate's self-contradictory positions, it has managed to get some of what it wanted. Prominent women who make and write about games have been chased out of the industry. Kotaku has banned its writers from contributing to developers on Patreon, a crowdfunding website popular with women in games—notably Gamergate targets Zoë Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian (editor-in-chief Stephen Totilo later clarified that the policy applies to any direct financial support of developers). It's all about misogyny you see. Gamergaters are all Misogynists, and naturally as a result would want to have all women out of any form of their hobby- also remember They are horrible monsters. And bloody hell, well over a year on and this topic still creates a thread with exponential growth.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:41
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Gianthogweed posted:It says it right on the page. http://deepfreeze.it/article.php?a=gjp No, it doesn't. What did they do that was bad or illegal? Be specific.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:41
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The Snark posted:It's all about misogyny you see. Gamergaters are all Misogynists, and naturally as a result would want to have all women out of any form of their hobby- also remember They are horrible monsters. this but unironically
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Jul 2, 2015 16:42
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Zerilan posted:I'm in full support of there being a lot more Gone Home style games. I am in full support of you supporting Gone Home style games, but not there actually being more such games.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:42
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The Snark posted:http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080 Why do YoU CaPITALize In SuCH a FAShiON? It'S VeRY OFF-putting and MAKES your POST difficult To pARSE sO tHAT pEoPlE cAn FiGuRe OuT wHAT YOUR major MalFuncTion iS.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:43
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Slanderer posted:1. One guy recommended people against hiring Pinsof, which was lovely. But he had no power to coerce anyone else into doing so. With Pinsof there seemed to be more of a "Fire him and nobody talk to him" mentality going down. Which is real lovely and would be interesting to see what the legal ramifications of that are. It wasn't just one guy recommending things. It kind of turned into a schoolyard clique bashing on the guy. (Up to you whether or not Alistair "deserved it" or not). To me that just seems unprofessional and super lovely. Its not something I want to be a part of and I wouldn't want to support a business that does that sort of stuff. Neurolimal posted:They are often incredibly informal, yes. They can be partial about subjects due to the confidence that it is a private mailing list. Thanks for the response, it has given me some things to think about! I guess one thing that seems weird is most of the "game journalism" articles seem to follow the same path, as opposed to having multiple takes and opinions. Exmond fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jul 2, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 16:44
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Exmond posted:Read about this if you have the time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList. I have read about it. I don't get what's the problem. Do people think that journalists in other fields don't talk to each other or something? There can be individual actions taken by people on the list that are bad; that has nothing to do with there being an email list. INH5 posted:They didn't come under false pretenses at all, they switched the website on their application form a few times but informed Expo staff every time. As far as derailing, here is a recording of the panel they allegedly "derailed": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymkIiGRvtBg. Their discussion starts at 18:30. Can you point me to the part where they did anything worth getting thrown out and banned from the convention for life? I'm sorry, I can't really hear much of anything on that audio, but listening to it, it doesn't sound like they came to have any sort of conversation or listen to anything being said to them, but just to say their piece to the panel. Their show is apparently broadcast by Voice for Men, listed by the SPLC as a hate site. Saying they weren't there under false pretenses when their group name wasn't even on their booth seems kind of odd to me. http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites Voice for Men, as you can see, publishes lists of women who they say have made false rape allegations. That's a horrible group to be associated with.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:46
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Exmond posted:With Pinsof there seemed to be more of a "Fire him and nobody talk to him" mentality going down. Which is real lovely and would be interesting to see what the legal ramifications of that are. It wasn't just one guy recommending things. It kind of turned into a schoolyard clique bashing on the guy. (Up to you whether or not Alistair "deserved it" or not). I guarantee I could give you an example of a person you would be comfortable being blacklisted from games media for odious opinions. Do not pretend your issue is with the blacklisting as much as what you feel he was blacklisted for.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:46
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Exmond posted:With Pinsof there seemed to be more of a "Fire him and nobody talk to him" mentality going down. Which is real lovely and would be interesting to see what the legal ramifications of that are. It wasn't just one guy recommending things. It kind of turned into a schoolyard clique bashing on the guy. (Up to you whether or not Alistair "deserved it" or not). If they were making fun of him and owning him that brutally, one might think they had already made up their mind about not wanting him to be hired at their publication.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:46
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People in industries tell each other "Don't hire this guy, he's a fucker" all the time. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. It depends why you're saying they're a fucker, and it still has nothing to do with an email list.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:48
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Here is an actual example of collusion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America#CAMERA_campaign_in_Wikipedia tl;dr : pro-israeli wikipedia editors used a secret google group to coordinate edit wars on various pages. This is bad because it is against the rules of wikipedia. Thus, collusion
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Jul 2, 2015 16:49
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Slanderer posted:Wait wait I missed this---why the gently caress shouldn't people boycott products that aren't what they want to buy? Why shouldn't they be vocal about it, so that publishers know why they didn't buy the game, and so that other people of a similar mind can't express their agreement with the boycott? Simply not buying something you don't like is not a boycott, at least not in the sense that I'm referring to; which is the organized boycott. Because in the case of an organized boycott, if you don't participate in said boycott, you're then "A Sexist." "A Racist." or any other "ist." that the boycott is protesting. You're suddenly a monster and a misogynist for breaking the boycott. "Why do you hate women?" It could (and has been) be said, if you chose to buy a game under a feminist boycott. Now you're a pariah. Persona non grata to anyone who wants to remain in the group and not also be considered unclean Obdicut posted:I did read it. I really do disagree with you about it being histrionic and hyperbolic. All of the NPCs are there to ignore, kill or knock out as the only possible interaction. There is no "intended perverse pleasure" from helpless bodies. Again, the only difference in the hitman example was that they were strippers. If the male NPC's were more talkative, or more interactive, there would be a point to all this. It doesn't make sense as a general statement, she is specific about pervers pleasure desecrating only the female bodies. Which is false. I think you're also wrong by insinuating that anything that is possible, is intended as the primary choice. Killing a female character in a game where anyone can die, for example. That's not how it's "intended" to be played, that's a way it can be played. Obdicut posted:
Obdicut posted:
Mostly... Obdicut posted:Why is boycott going too far? And again, my experience is derived from working in the games industry. As I said, maybe my selection is biased by the group of testers who were at EA--and the producers, marketers, etc. I engaged with. If you are right, and the people who want breasts in the game are not monolithic, then there shouldn't be a big problem in changing them, right? The article about how the raunchy-teen-gamer stereotype isn't the only audience is right. See above.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:49
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Exmond posted:
No problem! It's nice to have a civil discussion every now and then. There is a genuine critique about how most reviewers are from the same/similar piles of enclaves leading to homogenous opinions. If gamergate had been about critic diversity it may have garnered more sympathy.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:51
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Talmonis posted:All of the NPCs are there to ignore, kill or knock out as the only possible interaction. There is no "intended perverse pleasure" from helpless bodies. Again, the only difference in the hitman example was that they were strippers. If the male NPC's were more talkative, or more interactive, there would be a point to all this. It doesn't make sense as a general statement, she is specific about pervers pleasure desecrating only the female bodies. Which is false. female and male bodies do not exist in a sociological vacuum.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:51
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Obdicut posted:People in industries tell each other "Don't hire this guy, he's a fucker" all the time. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. It depends why you're saying they're a fucker, and it still has nothing to do with an email list. I don't think we are going to agree on this  . Saying "Dont hire this guy" in space with the major players in your industry, while you yourself are a major player, is wrong. Such discussions should be person to person, or brought up as a reference point. Not in a group discussion with everyone.What if someone thought Pinsof was hireable? Would they speak up in a group conversation where everyone is bashing him?
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Jul 2, 2015 16:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:female and male bodies do not exist in a sociological vacuum. I would love to see your list of un-problematic games and media.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:52
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The Snark posted:I would love to see your list of un-problematic games and media. How does this make sense as a response? You are quickly proving yourself too stupid to contribute meaningfully.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:54
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Slanderer posted:No, it doesn't. I don't know how much more specific I can be than what they've already written, cited with examples. I mean I could copy and paste it into my post, but then you don't get the citations or links. edit: Wow one of you guys actually bought me a custom title just for linking deepfreeze. Seriously? Is it that sensitive an issue? Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jul 2, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 16:55
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The Snark posted:I would love to see your list of un-problematic games and media. Almost everything can be found to have elements that are worthy of critique and concern as everything exists in the larger sociological system that created it. Why do you think art exists that cannot be seen as both a positive and negative reflection of the society that influenced it? And why do you think considering the larger sociological implications of the media we consume is a bad thing to do? Do you think it means we cannot enjoy it?
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Jul 2, 2015 16:55
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Obdicut posted:I'm sorry, I can't really hear much of anything on that audio, but listening to it, it doesn't sound like they came to have any sort of conversation or listen to anything being said to them, but just to say their piece to the panel. Their show is apparently broadcast by Voice for Men, listed by the SPLC as a hate site. Saying they weren't there under false pretenses when their group name wasn't even on their booth seems kind of odd to me. They asked for permission to speak and were granted it. Agree or disagree with what they said, what happened there that could possibly be worth throwing them out, banning them for life, and calling the cops on them when they had a picnic a mile away from the convention center? They didn't "come under false pretenses" because they gave all relevant information to the Expo staff when they were applying. I'm not aware of any requirements to prominently display your group name on your booth, as plenty of booths at conventions that I've gone to haven't done that. I fail to see how some of their content being published by AVfM is relevant at all. They weren't promoting AVfM at the convention, were they? More to the point, if the convention wants to institute a "no MRAs" policy, they should do that when people are applying, not after they've already spent a lot of money to travel to the convention and set up there.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:56
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Are strippers the result of rampant misogyny, or are they in fact the empowerment of women to do what they want with their bodies? I look to you, The Gamergate thread, for answers.
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