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Obdicut posted:Nobody is calling for censorship, again. And have you read Crime and Punishment? It's rather discouraging towards violence. Ok fine, what about Greek heroes? Do the Iliad and the Labors of Hercules encourage violence? Mel Mudkiper posted:Sarkeesian has never advocated for censorship and I challenge you to prove otherwise They're going through the same motions as past censors but stopping short of legislation because it's unpalatable for this generation. It doesn't matter though because once you've created a consumer base that can only define style in the negative and wants to nitpick every detail they disagree with then you have censorship in spirit if not letter.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:37
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Hybrid children watch the sea Pray for Father, roaming free
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Obdicut posted:That's still not what you claimed--but I meant anyone here. Can you find anyone here, who is against GG, as I am, making that claim? Ah, in this thread no less? I'll be honest, while I am interested in encouraging this discussion to as much reason as possible I am not inclined to sort through 127 pages even to find a quote that perfectly lines up. If you will settle for the assertion that GamerGate is comprised entirely of misogynistic monsters though- I don't have to go back more than a page. The Snark posted: It's all about misogyny you see. Gamergaters are all Misogynists, and naturally as a result would want to have all women out of any form of their hobby- also remember They are horrible monsters. Mel Mudkiper posted:this but unironically Otherwise I would like to note, I rather agree with Mel. Analyzing media for problematic things is not itself a problem, quite probably a good thing. People using these potentially problematic things as grounds to attack and look down on people who like these media, that is a problem. After all, everything is problematic. It's all just human nature of course, everyone wants to feel like they're better than someone else and the more they feel they are better than- the better it feels. GamerGaters represent a large group of people one can easily imagine themselves superior to. So why consider they may not necessarily be inferior pig-people?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:37
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Control Volume posted:I haven't really been paying attention to this thread for the obvious reason that I don't care that much but what is this guy's position and why is it indefensible? It wasn't really just the one guy, though there are posters in this thread doing it. I'm just saying it's completely ridiculous how people work so hard to prove that she's somehow wrong about Hitman (she's not, she's talking about how developers have choice and they keep exercising that choice in the direction of tits and strippers) while completely ignoring the larget context.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:38
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Reaganball Z posted:They're going through the same motions as past censors but stopping short of legislation because it's unpalatable for this generation. Give concrete examples of this because you are either wrong or a liar and I would like you to clearly demonstrate which
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Jul 2, 2015 17:38
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Mel Mudkiper posted:As I have said before, there are countless examples of people you would be comfortable being blacklisted like this. Your issue is not with the action, it is with the justification for the action. Yes. Being a lovely person is not reason enough to make that person unable to survive our lovely capitalist system. Also, consequences should teach lessons. Being fired for doing something sexist should be a lesson learned. If they can't get a job afterward, there's no lesson, just hardship, loss and bitterness. Suddenly, you have a life long misogynist who probably loathes and despises Feminists and Women in general.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:39
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The Droid posted:What is a 20 minute video Whoops, my mistake. Thought this was a reference to the video posted 2 posts earlier.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:40
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The Snark posted:GamerGaters represent a large group of people one can easily imagine themselves superior to. to be fair it is not the personality of GamerGaters as much as the actions that have proven them to be odious.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:40
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I feel like theres an attacker/attacked confusion and people instinctively want to jump in and defend the attacked.The Snark posted:Ah, in this thread no less? I'll be honest, while I am interested in encouraging this discussion to as much reason as possible I am not inclined to sort through 127 pages even to find a quote that perfectly lines up. If you will settle for the assertion that GamerGate is comprised entirely of misogynistic monsters though- I don't have to go back more than a page. Why else would they be gamergaters?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:41
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Talmonis posted:Aren't you, by breaking the boycott called by feminists, aiding and abetting sexism by showing that you'd "rather play a game than help fight sexism?" That's really what is happening in that instance, and a lot of loud people would give you poo poo for it. For the record I don't care either. The only things that offend me are the Game of War ads with the scantily clad blonde. But even there, I wouldn't call for a boycott. I'd just mess with you if you played it and poke fun that you did so due to wanting to be "her hero". Which boycott is this exactly that the feminists are attacking people for not participating in it?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:41
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Cingulate posted:I don't see how this is a criticism of what I tried to say. Maybe try paraphrasing what you read my argument to be? That we should tread on eggshells to get around the idea that something may be a problem because telling people it is a problem may be slightly upsetting? The idea that "I could never be x, x are terrible people" is exactly the sort of mentality that lets such things fester. We could go to great lengths to explain that people who think, act, support and are entirely ignorant of a terrible system being in place are not cogs of that terrible system, but that would be incredibly dishonest.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:41
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Talmonis posted:Yes. Being a lovely person is not reason enough to make that person unable to survive our lovely capitalist system. Also, consequences should teach lessons. Being fired for doing something sexist should be a lesson learned. If they can't get a job afterward, there's no lesson, just hardship, loss and bitterness. Suddenly, you have a life long misogynist who probably loathes and despises Feminists and Women in general. I can see what you are trying to say but frankly it is idealistic to the point of implausibility if not outright impossibility. Why should another company be asked to deal with a person who has most likely learned nothing on the off chance that he has suddenly made a miraculous change in behavior?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:42
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Talmonis posted:Aren't you, by breaking the boycott called by feminists, aiding and abetting sexism by showing that you'd "rather play a game than help fight sexism?" T No, and again, i'm a feminist. It's not a monolithic block. quote:what's really what is happening in that instance, and a lot of loud people would give you poo poo for it. For the record I don't care either. The only things that offend me are the Game of War ads with the scantily clad blonde. But even there, I wouldn't call for a boycott. I'd just mess with you if you played it and poke fun that you did so due to wanting to be "her hero". Nobody gave me any poo poo at any point. I am friends with people who are really drat feminist. Is it possible what you think happens doesn't actually happen in the real world? quote:I really don't agree with you outside of specific stripper instances. A man or a woman, fully clothed and dead is just a dead body to move. There's no perversion unless I'm dry humping the body, and I doubt that the company will code that in...beware of modders though, they're some sick fuckers. Is this just that you don't know that perverse doesn't solely mean sexual? Again, you really seem to ignore the forest for the trees. quote:
Okay? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything that's been said. Nobody's calling for invulnerable NPCs. I don't know why you're talking about the kids. The article really did focus on the sexualization of women, not just NPCs in general and that you can do violence to them. quote:Sweet Christ yes it's a bad thing. Whistleblowers, labor organizers and "Troublemakers" (Read: People who know their rights and fight wage theft and other abuse) are black listed all the time like this. So what if that guy was lovely, even he's got to eat. You're commiting honest to god economic violence there, by trying to ensure that he can't find work in his field. Really man, I'm pretty surprised that you would engage in that. Really? He hosed up at work, blamed other people for it, lied, destroyed other people's work, and was generally an awful human being, and I'm lovely for warning my friends about him? he wasn't a labor organizer, a whistleblower, or a person who fought wage theft. He was a lying, lovely, do-nothing rear end in a top hat who hosed other people over. Why on earth is it bad to warn people about him? Economic violence--what the gently caress is that? Is it economic violence for someone not to hire me? Talmonis posted:Yes. Being a lovely person is not reason enough to make that person unable to survive our lovely capitalist system. Also, consequences should teach lessons. Being fired for doing something sexist should be a lesson learned. If they can't get a job afterward, there's no lesson, just hardship, loss and bitterness. Suddenly, you have a life long misogynist who probably loathes and despises Feminists and Women in general. How is it lesson learned if they just get another job right away?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:42
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Nevvy Z posted:It wasn't really just the one guy, though there are posters in this thread doing it. I'm just saying it's completely ridiculous how people work so hard to prove that she's somehow wrong about Hitman (she's not, she's talking about how developers have choice and they keep exercising that choice in the direction of tits and strippers) while completely ignoring the larget context. Hmm this seems like a bad stance to take when you are still actively debating the point that you say they shouldn't be debating, anyways that's just my opinion
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Jul 2, 2015 17:43
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I didn't know Quinn had an SA account. I also didn't know she spent a lot of time in Helldump (apparently). Small world. Sorry I just found out the gamegate poo poo had a thread Gamergate is loving stupid bro
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Jul 2, 2015 17:44
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Slanderer posted:Just tell me what was illegal. And since bad is a moral judgement, tell me what part you think was bad and why. I'm not sure if any of it was illegal, but they're still trying to investigate a lot of that stuff. I think censorship is bad, I think blacklisting is bad, and I think agenda driven journalism is bad, especially when you're trying to run smear campaigns.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:44
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Unfunny Poster posted:This is a good video on the subject and fairly neutral (in my opinion at least): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNZFWR0Q8M This is really good, as with all of his videos.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:44
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Give concrete examples of this because you are either wrong or a liar and I would like you to clearly demonstrate which My meaning can be found in the sentence you left out of my quote. Sarkeesian and her followers are no good at making creative media so they have to constantly be picking at what they don't like in order to find use for their gender studies degrees. They can't make a living from critiquing A Clockwork Orange or Mozart because Kubrick and opera fans can talk back. It's the same as earlier generations except legislating their ideas was still an option back then.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:47
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Reaganball Z posted:Ok fine, what about Greek heroes? Do the Iliad and the Labors of Hercules encourage violence? Okay, so in other words, you want more racism and more sexism. Because you're talking about how any kind of effort to shape our culture is censorship, and so we are laboring under the censoring notion that those things are wrong. So more misogynistic violence! More race-hatred! More gaybashings on the TV! Accelerate! Accelerate! Reaganball Z posted:My meaning can be found in the sentence you left out of my quote. Sarkeesian and her followers are no good at making creative media so they have to constantly be picking at what they don't like in order to find use for their gender studies degrees. They can't make a living from critiquing A Clockwork Orange or Mozart because Kubrick and opera fans can talk back. It's the same as earlier generations except legislating their ideas was still an option back then. If criticism is a sign of stupidity, what does it say about you that you're being critical?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:47
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The Snark posted:Ah, in this thread no less? I'll be honest, while I am interested in encouraging this discussion to as much reason as possible I am not inclined to sort through 127 pages even to find a quote that perfectly lines up. If you will settle for the assertion that GamerGate is comprised entirely of misogynistic monsters though- I don't have to go back more than a page. Okay, great. Anyone else? I'll give you a hint: no. So one person out of however many are anti-GG. Like me. Your claims were hyperbolic and pretty silly. quote:Otherwise I would like to note, I rather agree with Mel. Great. You don't seem to make a hell of a lot of sense or really seem to have a point, but you sure seem like you're smug about something. Reaganball Z posted:My meaning can be found in the sentence you left out of my quote. Sarkeesian and her followers are no good at making creative media so they have to constantly be picking at what they don't like in order to find use for their gender studies degrees. They can't make a living from critiquing A Clockwork Orange or Mozart because Kubrick and opera fans can talk back. It's the same as earlier generations except legislating their ideas was still an option back then. Who can't talk back?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:47
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Gianthogweed posted:I don't think any of it was illegal. I think censorship is bad, I think blacklisting is bad, and I think agenda driven journalism is bad, especially when you're trying to run smear campaigns. Nobody was censored, though? It seemed like a lot of people agreed that they didn't want to publish one misogynist weirdo. And one guy saying "I don't think you should hire this guy we fired for being a weird transphobe, but i cant tell you what to do" is not really blacklisting. And what smear campaigns are you referring to? Slanderer fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jul 2, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 17:48
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Gianthogweed posted:I'm not sure if any of it was illegal, but they're still trying to investigate a lot of that stuff. I think censorship is bad, I think blacklisting is bad, and I think agenda driven journalism is bad, especially when you're trying to run smear campaigns. None of those three things happened.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:48
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Reaganball Z posted:My meaning can be found in the sentence you left out of my quote. Sarkeesian and her followers are no good at making creative media so they have to constantly be picking at what they don't like in order to find use for their gender studies degrees. They can't make a living from critiquing A Clockwork Orange or Mozart because Kubrick and opera fans can talk back. It's the same as earlier generations except legislating their ideas was still an option back then. How is critique analogous to censorship? You called them censors. Show them censoring. Edit: Also, do you honestly think Mozart and Clockwork Orange do not receive the same critiques?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:49
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Reaganball Z posted:Ok fine, what about Greek heroes? Do the Iliad and the Labors of Hercules encourage violence? So they're "going through the motions" but are stopping before the part that is actually meaningful? Those dastardly fiends! How could they be so nefarious as to not actually censor anything? Does their criminal genius know no bounds?! And they encourage people not to by things they don't support no less! Don't they know that as consumes they have an obligation to buy literally everything out there? Anything less is jackbooted fascism!
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Jul 2, 2015 17:50
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Reaganball Z posted:My meaning can be found in the sentence you left out of my quote. Sarkeesian and her followers are no good at making creative media so they have to constantly be picking at what they don't like in order to find use for their gender studies degrees. They can't make a living from critiquing A Clockwork Orange or Mozart because Kubrick and opera fans can talk back. It's the same as earlier generations except legislating their ideas was still an option back then. Do you think media criticism was invented by feminists, somehow?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:51
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Slanderer posted:Do you think media criticism was invented by feminists, somehow? he also thinks that Crime and Punishment is somehow pro-violence.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:52
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Obdicut posted:he also thinks that Crime and Punishment is somehow pro-violence. he also apparently thinks there was never feminist critique of anything other than video games
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Jul 2, 2015 17:53
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Sarkeesian has never advocated for censorship and I challenge you to prove otherwise That's where the real dishonest fuckery of this movement comes in. A critic saying recent level design is poo poo isn't trying to censor long tutorials. A critic who hates pixel art as an aesthetic isn't censoring 2d games. They should know better, but they just don't understand journalism at all. Or they're liars. I can't tell.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:53
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^^^^ It's the latter Reaganball Z posted:My meaning can be found in the sentence you left out of my quote. Sarkeesian and her followers are no good at making creative media so they have to constantly be picking at what they don't like in order to find use for their gender studies degrees. They can't make a living from critiquing A Clockwork Orange or Mozart because Kubrick and opera fans can talk back. It's the same as earlier generations except legislating their ideas was still an option back then. How dare people criticize anything? People should never speak ill of the glorious
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Jul 2, 2015 17:53
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Obdicut posted:Okay, great. Anyone else? I'll give you a hint: no. So one person out of however many are anti-GG. Like me. Your claims were hyperbolic and pretty silly. No one else, you say? I really don't know how to address such willful blindness. Well, declare yourself the victor and me without any point as you like- the yawning void of eternity that will eventually consume us all doesn't actually care either way. https://twitter.com/nihilist_arbys?lang=en This is the best thing on Twitter, on a vaguely related note.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:54
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ikanreed posted:They should know better, but they just don't understand journalism at all. Or they're liars. I can't tell. As best as I can tell the majority are so critically illiterate they honestly believe the criticism facing games is unique to their medium
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Jul 2, 2015 17:54
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Control Volume posted:Hmm this seems like a bad stance to take when you are still actively debating the point that you say they shouldn't be debating, anyways that's just my opinion I feel like it's more like I'm explaining to things to children. I can point at evidence they are wrong while also pointing out that they are just making poo poo up. Gamergaters are children. People who are mean to gamergaters doesn't make them right about anything, no matter how mean those people are. I sypmathize with GGers who have been harassed and I think some people who oppose them are too mean about it, but that doesn't make them any more correct.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:54
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What I'm saying is that Sarkeesian's psychology is the reason why good creative periods end and it's a shame that her side is on the uptick now, though I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon enough.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:54
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ikanreed posted:That's where the real dishonest fuckery of this movement comes in. They're idiots, basically. They just follow the loudest voice and if the loudest voice has no loving clue what he's talking about, you get people who think that "criticism = censorship".
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Jul 2, 2015 17:55
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Reaganball Z posted:What I'm saying is that Sarkeesian's psychology is the reason why good creative periods end and it's a shame that her side is on the uptick now, though I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon enough. How is she ending a "good creative period". Explain the process exactly.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:55
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Reaganball Z posted:What I'm saying is that Sarkeesian's psychology is the reason why good creative periods end and it's a shame that her side is on the uptick now, though I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon enough. Give us an example of an artistic movement or creative period demonstrably weakened by critical analysis
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Jul 2, 2015 17:56
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The Snark posted:No one else, you say? I really don't know how to address such willful blindness. Well, declare yourself the victor and me without any point as you like- the yawning void of eternity that will eventually consume us all doesn't actually care either way. Wow yeah, I'm really overcome with an intense desire to never read anything you write ever again. Jesus. Reaganball Z posted:What I'm saying is that Sarkeesian's psychology is the reason why good creative periods end and it's a shame that her side is on the uptick now, though I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon enough. Why do you think Crime and Punishment is pro-violence?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:56
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Nevvy Z posted:None of those three things happened. Oh really? Awesome. So I guess it's all settled then. You should go tell the guys in 8chan and KiA though because I don't think they know yet. Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jul 3, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 17:57
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Obdicut posted:No, and again, i'm a feminist. It's not a monolithic block. The reason I bring up NPC's in general, is that you said that if it's possible, it's intended. My example was children. Perhaps I went to far ahead and skipped an important example. My bad. Here's another: What is your proposed solution to the fact that women are able to be shot, killed, moved about and looted for their belongings in a sandbox game? My example game is Fallout 3. In Fallout 3, I can strip you to the underpants, male or female, and pose your body for a picture like a hunter with a deer, if I so desired. I don't think that this is sexist, or intended to be sexist/perverse due to that being possible, as it's both genders. There are also "naughty nighttime clothes" in Fallout. A male and a Female set. You can do the same to individuals in those clothes as well. There are strippers in New Vegas, though I've never shot one...I do wonder if I can loot their clothing set. Regardless, there are both male and female strippers, and I don't see an issue since that's the case. Economic violence is using your connections to attempt to ensure an individual that has crossed you cannot find work. Not that you won't hire him yourself. This was common during the gilded age among industrialists and is a really harsh thing for a working man to do to another. He knows it can get him fired. Hopefully he's learned not to be an awful human being. Is it your place to destroy any chance he has to amend that?
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Jul 2, 2015 17:57
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Seriously Reaganball you continue to make outrageous claims without even the most miniscule of evidence to back it up and I suspect its because you know your bluster falls apart under even the most passive examination
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Jul 2, 2015 17:57
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Give us an example of an artistic movement or creative period demonstrably weakened by critical analysis The Temperence movement caused a lot of really bad poo poo to happen after it successfully lobbied for Prohibition.
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Jul 2, 2015 17:59
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