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NTRabbit posted:They don't care in the slightest about retaining older players and grogs, and they don't care one bit about their reaction - this whole thing is clearly a toy aimed at children who buy and move on.
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Jul 4, 2015 16:24
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HiveCommander posted:...but how will children get a moustache big enough to get Kurt Helborg's rerolls? Citadel brand stick on disposable moustaches, pack of 5 for $21.99, keep up!
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Jul 4, 2015 16:27
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NTRabbit posted:Citadel brand stick on disposable moustaches, pack of 5 for $21.99, keep up! See also Citadel Brand larger stick on disposable moustaches, pack of 3 for $31.99!
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Jul 4, 2015 16:33
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NTRabbit posted:They don't care in the slightest about retaining older players and grogs, and they don't care one bit about their reaction - this whole thing is clearly a toy aimed at children who buy and move on. It's important to never be so invested in a game that you lose sight of what it is. Warhammer has always been for children, ~12-14, just like magic, just like x wing, just like DND. The conceit of your hobbies is what turns people into grogs.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:16
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Archaeology Hat posted:See also Citadel Brand larger stick on disposable moustaches, pack of 3 for $31.99! Get the $1000 Forge World Bloodfur Titan Moustache or go home, filthy casual.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:17
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Chill la Chill posted:It's important to never be so invested in a game that you lose sight of what it is. Warhammer has always been for children, ~12-14, just like magic, just like x wing, just like DND. The conceit of your hobbies is what turns people into grogs. Neither Magic nor X-Wing are exclusively for those demographics or particularly designed at them, however. WOTC's never going to make Magic "mature" but it's also never going to actively alienate its adult customers. X-Wing lists 14+ as the age range on the box.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:19
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Ultiville posted:X-Wing lists 14+ as the age range on the box. That's probably so it doesn't have to get listed as a toy, there's various legal implications that are required of things marketed to children.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:25
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krushgroove posted:That's probably so it doesn't have to get listed as a toy, there's various legal implications that are required of things marketed to children.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:26
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Ultiville posted:Neither Magic nor X-Wing are exclusively for those demographics or particularly designed at them, however. WOTC's never going to make Magic "mature" but it's also never going to actively alienate its adult customers. This sounds like someone who also tries to defend their anime or cartoons by saying it can also be enjoyed by adults. They can be but that doesn't mean it's the main audience. I don't think it even has anything to do with alienation. Idk why x wing would have that age listed besides the use of tiny pieces. The game is simple enough that the guys with kids play it with their 8 year olds often.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:28
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Ultiville posted:X-Wing lists 14+ as the age range on the box. Those are more for who they think won't try to eat the game pieces.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:29
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Spiderdrake posted:Let me tell you all about drop tests and elbowgate... I imagine drop tests are to make sure a child's toy doesn't shatter into sharp, swallowable bits when dropped, but what is the elbow thing?
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Jul 4, 2015 17:31
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FrostyPox posted:Really the smart way to deal with WAAC players is to write tight, clear, balanced rules so that there's little for them to exploit and even "playing casually" means you have a good chance of winning, and also not to play against douchebags Yeah, if anything open-ended rules and army-building mechnics significantly empower WAAC players. Oh and guess what - most people don't have 5 beer and pretzel bros to beer and pretzel it up on Beer and Pretzels night. Most people have to beer and pretzels with the few local fantasy players that are around and, invariably, one of those guys is a WAAC.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:32
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Chill la Chill posted:Ahahahahaha the nova open WHFB pdf just states they'll be using 9th edition rules of it gets released in time. I can't wait to see 45 year olds pretending to ride horses. i imagine they mean "9th edition" as some sort of actual update to 8th ed that people with stockholm syndrome are still probably convinced is coming its not like gw has made multiple statements saying "THIS IS FUCKIN IT, HAVE FUN WITH OUR COMPETITORS" or anything
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Jul 4, 2015 17:33
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Business Gorillas posted:i imagine they mean "9th edition" as some sort of actual update to 8th ed that people with stockholm syndrome are still probably convinced is coming The open happens too soon or else I'd also be hoping the 40k rules get updated to the age of emperor. Maybe next year. The drama will be glorious.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:38
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Chill la Chill posted:This sounds like someone who also tries to defend their anime or cartoons by saying it can also be enjoyed by adults. They can be but that doesn't mean it's the main audience. I don't think it even has anything to do with alienation. Idk why x wing would have that age listed besides the use of tiny pieces. The game is simple enough that the guys with kids play it with their 8 year olds often. I don't know if you're being serious or not, but kids shows are designed and primarily marketed at kids. Most hobby games absolutely aren't. That's 100% not true of Magic. Look at their marketing efforts: it's things like streams, the Duels of the Planeswalkers app, and huge OP offerings mostly running too late for kids 12-14. As far as I've seen, it isn't true of X-Wing either and I see most of their marketing materials. They're both PG-13 equivalents: smarter or older kids and teenagers welcome, but the primary target demographic is teenagers and older. Now, it's less true of Warhammer, but Warhammer also doesn't do any market research and seems to be, at least in my area, vastly out of touch with who actually buys their games. Virtually all of our GW product sales are to adults. GW stores might skew younger, but IIRC they listed hobby stores as at least 40% of their sales, so if most are like us and sell primarily to adults, at least 40% of the actual people buying their game are grown-ups.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:40
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fnordcircle posted:Yeah, if anything open-ended rules and army-building mechnics significantly empower WAAC players. Oh and guess what - most people don't have 5 beer and pretzel bros to beer and pretzel it up on Beer and Pretzels night. Most people have to beer and pretzels with the few local fantasy players that are around and, invariably, one of those guys is a WAAC. Something just occurred to me as I was thinking about Age of Sigmar's weird gimmicky rules...so many Warhammer players decry the idea of "winning at all costs" usually in the context of people taking advantage of Warhammer's notorious lack of balance and bad design instead of "just having fun," but Age of Sigmar is a game that directly encourages winning at all costs. Are you willing to bray like a jackass in public for some free rerolls? Talk to your miniatures? Shout "for the lady?". If you do accidentally knock something off the table are you going to risk losing the game by picking it up or stick to your guns and refuse? How much dumb poo poo are you willing to do in order to squeeze the most out of your units?
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Jul 4, 2015 17:47
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The local GW fans are split down the middle, with some even going "You can't criticize when you play Warmachine" but this post takes the cake: There are tactical choices during the deployment that plays with the Sudden Death condition. Do you let your opponent outnumber you so you can enact the Sudden Death conditions, or do you match him to beat him outright? In my opinion there was a lot of thought put into the rules to present a very streamlined simple mechanics that work.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:49
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Kai Tave posted:Something just occurred to me as I was thinking about Age of Sigmar's weird gimmicky rules...so many Warhammer players decry the idea of "winning at all costs" usually in the context of people taking advantage of Warhammer's notorious lack of balance and bad design instead of "just having fun," but Age of Sigmar is a game that directly encourages winning at all costs. Are you willing to bray like a jackass in public for some free rerolls? Talk to your miniatures? Shout "for the lady?". If you do accidentally knock something off the table are you going to risk losing the game by picking it up or stick to your guns and refuse? How much dumb poo poo are you willing to do in order to squeeze the most out of your units? You're overthinking it.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:51
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Gorefiend posted:"You can't criticize when you play Warmachine" What does this even mean?
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Jul 4, 2015 17:51
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Calling those FAQ questions ranges from very generous to just downright wrong. Most of the points are just pointing out how lovely the rules are, not posing any question.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:53
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fnordcircle posted:What does this even mean? If you're looking for deeper meaning, remember, they're defending age of sigmar.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:56
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OhDearGodNo posted:You're overthinking it. Not really. "Win at all costs" has always been a dumb, poorly defined complaint that boils down to people whining that someone is playing the game "wrong," but now we have an actual GW game where sacrificing your dignity to win is baked into the rules. It's great. (Insert your own joke about GW customers having no dignity here.)
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Jul 4, 2015 17:57
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Ultiville posted:I don't know if you're being serious or not, but kids shows are designed and primarily marketed at kids. Most hobby games absolutely aren't. I collect the silly magic and x wing promotional materials and I see no difference between them and the organized play Pokemon materials. At least everything that isn't the creepy life-size Lilliana cardboard cutout and wall sticky that encompasses everything bad about the hobby. Then again I'm not a marketing person. I have duels of the planes walkers and it's an extremely limited and introductory game - it really is designed for kids. The only thing I'd say is that Friday night magic is more of a catch-22 self fulfilling problem. There are several barriers to entry and both kids and especially girls playing magic is a huge problem. WOTC themselves admit that most games are played on the kitchen table but it's hard for them to play at card shops since people grew up and continued playing and several stores cater to the grognards/grinder (tournament try hard) crowd. The boys' club, now manchild's club, is a thing. The family oriented stores fight against this but a lot of stores openly enjoy it because older people can afford to pay for more expensive cards. But, that's all secondary market and culture problems and not the game and marketing itself. When the stores themselves make it easier for children to play, I see more children and their parents playing. It's me. I'm the grognard.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:10
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After the amazing local backlash, I'm going to have to lower my initial order from 8 copies to 4 copies. Which means I lose out on the reward tier...a poster.  Guess I'll have to settle for just the 4 copy window cling reward.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:10
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Kai Tave posted:Not really. "Win at all costs" has always been a dumb, poorly defined complaint that boils down to people whining that someone is playing the game "wrong," but now we have an actual GW game where sacrificing your dignity to win is baked into the rules. It's great. To be fair, it's been ages since I played a GW game, but back when I did they pretty much encouraged that kind of behavior through White Dwarf and their official store policy. One of the most ridiculous things about the company in my mind is that they've successfully convinced their customers to blame each other for their inability to write balanced rules for decades.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:12
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Chill la Chill posted:I collect the silly magic and x wing promotional materials and I see no difference between them and the organized play Pokemon materials. At least everything that isn't the creepy life-size Lilliana cardboard cutout and wall sticky that encompasses everything bad about the hobby. Then again I'm not a marketing person. I have duels of the planes walkers and it's an extremely limited and introductory game - it really is designed for kids. It's certainly possible they could decide to market more at kids, but they demonstrably don't. There's no kids show tie-in. They talk about their marketing strategy and demographics a lot and it isn't "this is a game we want to be for kids but adults keep shutting them out", their whole aesthetic is designed to appeal to older teens and twentysomethings and they're clear about it. And the initial design of the game wasn't Richard Garfield saying "I want to make a game for kids", he made a game he and his friends wanted to play. It's perfectly accurate to say that, say, bronies are squatting on a territory that isn't intended for them. It's not accurate to say that of adult Magic or X-Wing players in any way.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:16
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Kai Tave posted:Not really. "Win at all costs" has always been a dumb, poorly defined complaint that boils down to people whining that someone is playing the game "wrong," but now we have an actual GW game where sacrificing your dignity to win is baked into the rules. It's great. I notice this is a big thing in games with large balance issues; their players are always very quick to defend it via the veil of subjectivity, saying that things are "playstyle issues" or the like, from "If he brings cheese, don't play him" all the way to "A well-played fighter will overpower a wizard" type stuff.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:16
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Dr. Clockwork posted:After the amazing local backlash, I'm going to have to lower my initial order from 8 copies to 4 copies. Which means I lose out on the reward tier...a poster. i think this is a benefit and not a loss edit: spectralent posted:I notice this is a big thing in games with large balance issues; their players are always very quick to defend it via the veil of subjectivity, saying that things are "playstyle issues" or the like, from "If he brings cheese, don't play him" all the way to "A well-played fighter will overpower a wizard" type stuff.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:17
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Business Gorillas posted:
Yeah I mean to be fair I agree with the premise (i.e. terribly played OP usually ends in a loss anyway) but I get annoyed when it's used to dismiss the actual balance concerns behind it.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:20
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chrisoya posted:Did a single person in this thread think it would be this stupid? Don't lie.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:27
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Business Gorillas posted:the first part of this is definitely true though because the kinds of people that do this just make the games as miserable as possible when they start losing with their rad netlists and start having temper tantrums It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy though; when you convince your player base that playing competitively is a bad thing, only people who really really want to win and are willing to accept being shunned for it will do it. People who just want competitive play will just go elsewhere, especially these days when other good options abound. In games that are actually balanced for competitive play (Warmachine, Magic, X-Wing, etc), plenty of people are able to play hard and lose with grace.
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Jul 4, 2015 18:35
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It boggles the mind how people think "competitive play" and "tight rule set" and "balanced" is somehow the opposite of "simple" and "fun". Joe_Richter posted:Calling those FAQ questions ranges from very generous to just downright wrong. Most of the points are just pointing out how lovely the rules are, not posing any question. To be fair, a Frequently Asked Question is "is this poo poo for real?". So it is important to answer "yes, yes this poo poo is real". LordAba fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jul 4, 2015 |
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Jul 4, 2015 18:46
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It's totally possible to make a product that is used by both children and adults and isn't alienating for either group. NERF is a great example. On one hand you have kids who just wan't to shoot toy guns at each other, on the other hand you have stuff like one of the fastest growing college clubs/sports (Humans vs Zombies). The engineering department at NERF spends a HUGE amount of time doing things like making sure the grips on guns feel good on both adult and child hands and making products that are aimed at both kids and college students. But, you know, they also have the same parent company as WotC and a huge marketing department that does an rear end ton of market research so it's only natural they know all about their target demographics.
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Jul 4, 2015 19:00
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So is this 'competitive players' being a 4 letter word thing common? I don't frequent many GW games forums or FB groups or whatever until this AoS furor started. The loving moral superiority of 'casual' players when they talk about competitive players as though wanting to play with your best stuff is a character defect is pretty funny and stupid.
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Jul 4, 2015 19:02
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fnordcircle posted:So is this 'competitive players' being a 4 letter word thing common? I don't frequent many GW games forums or FB groups or whatever until this AoS furor started. Competitive as a four-letter-word is common, yes. The logic is that if you're playing seriously you're not having fun, and if you're thinking tactically or planning you're too busy "netlisting" to ever play the game. I am mildly surprised by the sheer level of glee some people are showing though.
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Jul 4, 2015 19:05
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fnordcircle posted:So is this 'competitive players' being a 4 letter word thing common? I don't frequent many GW games forums or FB groups or whatever until this AoS furor started. Speaking of, me and a friend were trying to get a game of AoS using his lizardmen and demons, but we never got to it. We waited like 40 minutes for someone else to finish a 40k game, then when it came to AoS it was a 4 v 4 game with a bunch of kids that just brought Bloodthirsters and Glottkins and whatever the gently caress else OP poo poo they had. We just noped out of there and went home. In hindsight we should have just played a game at his place but this game seems to be pretty awful for pick-up games unless your store isn't full of autistic manchildren and kids.
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Jul 4, 2015 19:06
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fnordcircle posted:So is this 'competitive players' being a 4 letter word thing common? I don't frequent many GW games forums or FB groups or whatever until this AoS furor started. Again been ages, but I played back in the late 90's at official GW shops in the UK and it was all over the place, including WD articles talking about how it was important your armies "matched the fluff" (which of course for non-Space Marines was often really hard to even figure out since they didn't have much guidance on what a typical, say, Eldar warhost looked like). It really annoyed me since I wasn't even trying to be cheesy, I was just a teenager who liked Eldar and GW had broken them in half in 2E. But yeah, I quickly just went to playing games with other reasonable people I met through the store in private, because for many people at the tournaments it seemed like their basic plan was a) whine that my stuff wasn't very well painted b) say my list was cheesy if I won. It was pretty unfortunate, but generally understandable from GW's perspective. After all, they at least for a long time didn't want to just straight-out say that they weren't interested in doing their jobs as designers and making their rules reasonably balanced. It's much easier to just blame the players for doing things that are effective.
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Jul 4, 2015 19:09
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spectralent posted:Competitive as a four-letter-word is common, yes. The logic is that if you're playing seriously you're not having fun, and if you're thinking tactically or planning you're too busy "netlisting" to ever play the game. I am mildly surprised by the sheer level of glee some people are showing though. Well it's pretty much all they can do, it's not like they can actually beat the good players so they have to complain about them being WAAC. It's sour grapes for losing for the most part, there are people who legit prefer a beer and pretzels game but it strikes me that the vocal complainers at one point considered themselves elite players until they got pwned and had to deal with it, in a choice between confronting ones own shortcomings and blaming someone else I know what 95% of humanity does.
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Jul 4, 2015 19:11
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fnordcircle posted:So is this 'competitive players' being a 4 letter word thing common? I don't frequent many GW games forums or FB groups or whatever until this AoS furor started. there's a difference between "competitive" players and "WAAC" players. "competitive" players play to win, but try to do that by just being a better player. "WAAC" players are the ones that will exploit minor loopholes and argue with you about fractions of an inch and actively try to game the system to their advantage. they're the ones that will try to actively exploit your lack of knowledge of their codex and try to make up rules, such as a rule that he just so happened to forget that allows him to get out of an unfavorable situation you've put him in
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Jul 4, 2015 19:13
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Business Gorillas posted:there's a difference between "competitive" players and "WAAC" players. "competitive" players play to win, but try to do that by just being a better player. "WAAC" players are the ones that will exploit minor loopholes and argue with you about fractions of an inch and actively try to game the system to their advantage. they're the ones that will try to actively exploit your lack of knowledge of their codex and try to make up rules, such as a rule that he just so happened to forget that allows him to get out of an unfavorable situation you've put him in In the same sense, people who complain about competitive players are rarely truly casual players. They're would be competitive players who aren't very good, and pretend they're casual to embolden their arguments, especially online where they can seek others to support them by acting the victim. They are casual scum and most casual players aren't like that, and it sucks that this argument tends to turn people who would have fun playing together against each other.
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Jul 4, 2015 19:18
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