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People are talking about War of the RIng a lot in this thread but everyone in Austin stopped playing it because it was broken as gently caress and not very fun, GW should've just made a good game instead. Or stuck with the other Lord of the Rings game that's a lot better.
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Jul 5, 2015 04:13
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KuangMkV posted:So, serious question. How many of you cool kids want to try WARMACHINE or HORDES for the first time? I don't. I want to play a game of ranked fantasy mass battles of the sort that GW just threw in the trash. Warmachine seems like it involves broadly everything that I dislike about Age of Sigmar: Skirmish, circular bases, small scale, loving pauldrons, a "continuing story". I piss on your Warmachine! I will look into Kings of War.
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Jul 5, 2015 04:14
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KuangMkV posted:So, serious question. How many of you cool kids want to try WARMACHINE or HORDES for the first time? I do, but I also want to play the game of massed fantasy battles and ranked regiments that made me play Fantasy instead of 40k when I first started 15 years ago. That's why I haven't sold my Empire fantasy minis, because there has to be a game out there (KoW, or Hail Caesar) that will allow me to rank up my halberdiers and slam them into other ranks of infantry, and shoot muskets at fools from a distance.
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Jul 5, 2015 04:22
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To be fair to Warmachine, with the exception of PAULDRONS on some unfortunate models, all the similarities it has to AoS is because AoS bastardized its mechanics without any of the positioning, magic resources, and tactical options that make it work. The advancing story lines really only exist to give you new versions of old characters without eclipsing or obsoleting them. As a 40k refugee I appreciate the things they get right.
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Jul 5, 2015 04:22
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All of this is so fascinating. I played fantasy heavily during 6th edition and for a lot of reasons it's my favorite time period of gaming. Everyone pretty much exclusively plays Warmahordes near me now, which is great and I enjoy, but the nostalgia of ranked combat fantasy gaming is always calling my name. I can't believe that all of that has been poo poo on so thoroughly and with such malice. That people are defending this is even more insane. Fascinating.
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Jul 5, 2015 04:25
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Leperflesh posted:It would be a first. If you look at where major movements of the stock have occurred in the past, they're always based on either the overall market moving bigtime, or on new information from the semi-annual reports. When GW surprised the market with a cut in its dividend, that dumped the stock huge. When they announced sales figures for their new line of paints were fantastic, the stock leapt upwards. How well did the sales of End Times go? Could that impact their financials?
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Jul 5, 2015 04:27
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WarmaHordes is really nothing like Fantasy. Kings of War is the appropriate analogue, given that WM/H is a (very good) open movement skirmish and combo game that is very gamey in the poo poo you can do and how you can do it. KoW is the infantry-block ranks and flanking Napoleonic countercharge wargame that people played WHFB for.
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Jul 5, 2015 04:30
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I would recommend Osprey's Of Gods and Mortals, because it's 15 bucks and if you own a WHFB army you'll be able to knock together a counts-as list for it quite easily (because Osprey don't give a gently caress what army list you use).
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Jul 5, 2015 04:33
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Crowsbeak posted:How well did the sales of End Times go? Could that impact their financials? We don't know, but yes. We'll see the next report this month; the CEO's commentary might mention how well End Times went, but the standard report format only breaks down numbers by region, channel (direct sales vs. retailers), and major product groupings (think: models vs. licensed products). If GW doesn't volunteer that information, we'll have to infer it from the numbers, which will be difficult because 40k 7th edition was released during the same period. My guess is that numbers will be down a little on a year-over-year basis, and that the CEO will blame this partially on currency valuation changes, partly on ongoing costs from restructuring, and partly on soft sales in a still-recovering British economy. e. It's worth mentioning that GW's numbers have never broken down sales between 40k and Fantasy. When people claim that fantasy is only 8% of GW's profits or revenues or whatever, they're basing this on a combination of speculation, and a report someone did back in 2010 that was itself based on some comments by a GW expert witness in a court case that wasn't centrally about GW's sales. In other words it's totally unreliable hearsay. We absolutely do not know how much money is made or lost on any specific Games Workshop product or product line, with the possible exception of its paint line (because GW spent a lot of time talking about how great paint sales were back in 2012). Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 04:33
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Crowsbeak posted:How well did the sales of End Times go? Could that impact their financials? What leperflesh said just above, but also what he said here is going to be extraordinarily difficult to move away from. leperflesh posted:The funds that hold them do so mostly as a diversifying factor against other companies in and out of the sector and industry (Sector: Cyclical Consumer Goods & Services; Industry: Toys & Juvenile Products - NEC) and because they pay a regular dividend and have no debt.
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Jul 5, 2015 04:36
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Leperflesh posted:We don't know, but yes. We'll see the next report this month; the CEO's commentary might mention how well End Times went, but the standard report format only breaks down numbers by region, channel (direct sales vs. retailers), and major product groupings (think: models vs. licensed products). If GW doesn't volunteer that information, we'll have to infer it from the numbers, which will be difficult because 40k 7th edition was released during the same period. Yeah but the world ecconomy isn't anywhere near suffering the problems it had in 2008. Oil Prices are still down, so production should be down, the parts of the world in stagnation are not where GW operates generally, and the rest of the industry is doing better. Of course I assume most other companies in their industry are not listed, and its not like GW is hemorrhaging money or anything.
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Jul 5, 2015 04:40
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Also it will be interesting how things fare in the face of X-Wing. The only time GW really got competition this steep was in the heyday of Mage Knight and Heroclix (which is still the best selling minis game ever) and back then they (or someone else, but the rumor is it was GW) pulled some strings and got HC/MK classified in all the industry sales charts and distribution channels as a TCG (so it doesn't count as a miniatures game). X-Wing is however an actual minis game and there is really no way around it and also it can actually dent their sales pretty significantly (since it's burning TTG sales charts to the ground right now). I'm sure they'll have some justification for it if they have one at all but it's interesting to see GW going into a market where they aren't the unsinkable juggernaut. However I wonder if we'll see a massive price slash. Back in the day this is how GW put down every game that competed with them until Warmachine. They slashed their prices to the absolute bone and offered insane deals like the old space marine and land raider sets. It put down Target, the only real company to ever go toe to toe with GW in their genre (European comic book inspired space marine warfare in the future) and so I'm a little surprised they've held so long to the "jewel like objects cannot be cheap" rock since the one surefire way to bring back people would be to cut prices.
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Jul 5, 2015 05:19
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BlackIronHeart posted:Owen, the Chaos player, made his own video about AoS and he apparently doesn't feel a need to keep it PG-13. The game volume overpowers him in the beginning but he turns it down. This man sounds so sad  I'm wondering what this game would look like if you automated all the dice rolling. It will probably just vanish.
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Jul 5, 2015 05:33
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El Estrago Bonito posted:Also it will be interesting how things fare in the face of X-Wing. The only time GW really got competition this steep was in the heyday of Mage Knight and Heroclix (which is still the best selling minis game ever) and back then they (or someone else, but the rumor is it was GW) pulled some strings and got HC/MK classified in all the industry sales charts and distribution channels as a TCG (so it doesn't count as a miniatures game). X-Wing is however an actual minis game and there is really no way around it and also it can actually dent their sales pretty significantly (since it's burning TTG sales charts to the ground right now). I'm sure they'll have some justification for it if they have one at all but it's interesting to see GW going into a market where they aren't the unsinkable juggernaut. There's what, 34 miniatures in the AoS box? That's like $7.35 a model. Even if they cut that price in half it'd be insanely overpriced.
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Jul 5, 2015 06:02
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theironjef posted:There's what, 34 miniatures in the AoS box? That's like $7.35 a model. Even if they cut that price in half it'd be insanely overpriced. 47 minis for $125 USD retail, or $2.65 USD per mini. edit: Or $5.31 NZD for our poor fellows on GW's naughty list. vvv enrious fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 06:08
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enrious posted:47 minis for $125 USD retail, or $2.65 USD per mini. Oh man I was way misinformed. I must have been looking at an aussie forum or something.
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Jul 5, 2015 06:10
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Crowsbeak posted:Of course I assume most other companies in their industry are not listed, and its not like GW is hemorrhaging money or anything. Basically this. GW is, as far as I know, the only publicly-traded company exclusively engaged in trad games. Hasbro is public, and owns Wizards of the Coast, but Hasbro doesn't break down WotC's financials the way GW breaks its financials down, and despite the wild success of Wizards' premier product, Magic the Gathering, on the scale of Hasbro's total business, WotC is small potatoes. GW is remarkable in that it has zero debt. Actually it's stupid for having zero debt, but that's another big post I put in the GW death thread. It's also stupid for paying a dividend, yet another big post, but both of these factors make the stock reasonably attractive to institutional investors. If GW's sales decline significantly, that doesn't push it into bankruptcy; it only forces the company to cut in order to stay profitable. It can close stores, it can close factories and offshore production, it can cut product lines. GW can follow a similar trajectory as Palladium, if it makes a series of decisions that fail to recover growth, but until/unless it starts borrowing money it can't pay back, the company won't close. It could become a target for acquisition, eventually. GW's IP is, in theory, pretty valuable. There are not a lot of companies that might consider buying them. Hasbro, maybe.
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Jul 5, 2015 06:10
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theironjef posted:Oh man I was way misinformed. I must have been looking at an aussie forum or something. It was NZ, I edited the post. But for $2.65 ($2.12 on Ebay)...and I can proxy them for Basilea in KoW or as some sort of fantasy Roman analogue in RPG games...and then there's the Sigmarine figures too... I will be strong.
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Jul 5, 2015 06:13
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If they made this with Nurgle instead of Khorne and knocked $50 off the price tag, I'd be jumping on it. But alas...
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Jul 5, 2015 06:24
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I played AoS today. The good: It plays quickly. I enjoy putting whatever I feel like onto the table (more on this in a second) Being able to take Chaos stuff with my Skaven was fun. It's a decent change of pace from the more strategy and synergy-intensive games I play, specifically my favorite game of all Warmachine. I'm ok with the idea that AoS occupies a different gaming space than Warmahordes, I can enjoy both for different reasons. I got to use all these pretty models that I've only been able to use once before because Fantasy is dead everywhere I've ever gamed going back to the early 90s. The bad: Balance. Rolling to see who goes first every round. Overpowered units/abilities. Daemon princes summoning daemons is stupid. Things that auto hit and do 2d3/1d6 mortal wounds are stupid. The bad was very bad. There's also a really interesting interplay between the issues with balance and with rolling to see who goes first every round. It meant that, because in each of my games the person who went 2nd in round one happened to roll highest for round 2 it makes it impossible to tell if our lists were balanced against each other. Bottom of turn 1 is your first time when you've got a good chance to get into melee and for things to be in range for magic, etc. So I charged in, took out his best model and then got to do it all over again without him getting a chance to do his magic, shooting, etc. So how do I tell if my list was balanced when I get to shoot twice and blast with magic twice and I get to choose first melee twice? I don't like losing when it's obvious that I've got the inferior list and I don't like winning when it's obvious I've got the superior list but going 2 turns in a row skews my ability to tell what is balanced against what. All in all, I was surprised how much I did enjoy the game the issues notwithstanding. Maybe it's because I went in with such low expectations and since it was a learning experience the balance issues weren't as big of a deal as they will be later on. I want to like this game but I think it is going to take a community effort to assign point values for the game to have any chance of surviving. Primarily because I'm pretty sure a good chunk of the people who poo poo on supposed WAAC players are really just sore losers in disguise and that most of us want to go into a game hoping that victory isn't determined solely by list composition which is the way things feel right now.
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Jul 5, 2015 06:31
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How many times did you manage to not look your opponent in the eye or ride an imaginary horse?
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Jul 5, 2015 06:33
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BlackIronHeart posted:If they made this with Nurgle instead of Khorne and knocked $50 off the price tag, I'd be jumping on it. But alas... If they're gonna charge GW prices for a case they should at least cut it off the sprue for you
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Jul 5, 2015 06:38
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Apollodorus posted:I do, but I also want to play the game of massed fantasy battles and ranked regiments that made me play Fantasy instead of 40k when I first started 15 years ago. PM me your mailing address. 
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Jul 5, 2015 07:35
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I played 3 games today of Game 1 - Starter Set This was probably the funnest game because the forces were pretty well balanced and the new chaos minis look pretty darn good. My opponent was a good sport and the unit specific rules were well written and flavorful. A lot of the problems we experienced with the game in the later matches weren't present because of the limitations of the starter set contents. The strategy of the game was basically push units at each other then roll a 3+ then 4+ over and over again. Game 2 - Wood Elves vs Tomb Kings This was a 'big' game that we played with about 5 or 6 units for each army. We noticed that some of the units that you can chose are absolutely garbage and others are way too strong. We tried really hard to come up with a balanced force to play against each other but in the end it didn't really work out. The strategy of the game was basically push units at each other then roll a 3+ then 4+ over and over again. The shooting rules we found to be complete garbage. The game would have been funner if some missions were provided and we both found ways to abuse the sudden death rules and decided against using them because it would have made the game even less interesting. Game 3 - Three way battle! I busted out some nurgle dudes for the last game, where three of us tried a multiplayer game. The strategy of the game was basically push units at each other then roll a 3+ then 4+ over and over again. The rules were easy to adapt to have more than 2 players. This was the third different army I played that day and it felt almost exactly the same as the previous two. We attempted to balance our forces by taking 3 units each with similar numbers of wounds and it didn't really work. After we got to around turn 5 and decided to call it because there was nothing to do but push models at each other and roll the same numbers over and over again. I chose not to use the sudden death rules again because I could have just picked endure for my GUO, or the TK player could have picked seize ground and could have 'won' the game but that didn't seem fun or interesting. Overall it can be kind of a fun game but you just do the same thing over and over no matter the army or win condition. When, or rather if, we play this again we'll try to come up with some scenarios to play and a better way to balance the army lists. If you play 40k khorne demonkin or want to convert some sigmarines then I would say pick up some of the models on ebay otherwise you can give the new boxed set a pass. The biggest highlight was I played with some really cool friends and that made the game tolerable and scheduled a game of bolt action and infinity the next time we get together.
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Jul 5, 2015 07:41
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After going through the rules, and playing a few games... I have to say my biggest gripe with it isn't the lack of balancing mechanics, or the way warscrolls were done, or the simplification of the rules, it's that the game is just rolling dice. There's no more flanks, no more rears, charge distances are ridiculously random, and the only real decision you have to make is which one of your units is going to attack the other first... and even then, it doesn't even matter much. The only strategic depth the game has seems to be - You want to have range fire units protected since they can fire into close combat - You want a Slann/Chaos Wizard/or Undead Priest constantly summoning units in a corner of the map - You want to have units get behind their melee units in order to try and kill the range units behind enemy lines and disrupt their summoning. And that's what I see as the dominant strategy in the game. As every faction except "Destruction" has access to summoning units, the key is to have your melee guys protect your range units and have a few "summoners" in the back to bring on reinforcements. That's it, that's the most strategic depth I can find in this game. And that's really really sad.
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Jul 5, 2015 08:27
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TBF 40K combat can be summed up as "push units together and roll 4+ 4+" etc but the melee has a lot more depth in the form of toughness v strength v saves v ap, and delivery systems, overwatch, cover, difficult terrain, positioning, challenges...
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Jul 5, 2015 08:48
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I wonder what Creative Assembly makes of all this given that they are making Total War: Warhammer (which I assume will be pre-End Times). They got sold a dog even worse than I did. It's interesting that GW decided to poo poo the bed before Total Warhammer was even released instead of trying to use it as a launchpad. When CA releases that game people will be playing with Karl Franz and Empire Halberdiers while Games Workshop is pushing Sigmarine Hammerhammerers.
Mukip fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 09:09
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Mukip posted:I wonder what Creative Assembly makes of all this given that they are making Total War: Warhammer (which I assume will be pre-End Times). They got sold a dog even worse than I did. It's interesting that GW decided to poo poo the bed before Total Warhammer was even released instead of trying to use it as a launchpad. When CA releases that game people will be playing with Karl Franz and Empire Halberdiers while Games Workshop is pushing Sigmarine Hammerhammerers. i imagine that they're pretty pissed now but in the end i don't think it'll matter. i don't think there's gonna be a demographic of "wow, i really like age of sigmar, but this total war warhammer game doesn't really do it for me" edit: in the end, it'll be GW that loses. think about what the response will be when someone plays the game and they say "wow, i really like this warhammer game, i wonder how my favorite faction does in the actual game. let me look on the internet and see what they think," followed by a dozen posts about how they shouldn't play AoS because its hot garbage
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Jul 5, 2015 09:20
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I'm just catching up on this nonsense and it's heartbreaking. Can someone fill me in on what The End Times was, and why it's leading up to this weird Warhammer land where there's 7 different zones and Empire Space Marines? The whole thing looks like a really bad intro to 40K instead of it's own game.
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Jul 5, 2015 09:26
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I remember a guy in a GW shop turning his nose up at me in 2007 when I came in to look at models and mentioned how much I loved Dawn of War and was thinking about getting into it. Remember that we're talking about a company who views videogames as a forgettable fad.
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Jul 5, 2015 09:29
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Mukip posted:I wonder what Creative Assembly makes of all this given that they are making Total War: Warhammer (which I assume will be pre-End Times). They got sold a dog even worse than I did. It's interesting that GW decided to poo poo the bed before Total Warhammer was even released instead of trying to use it as a launchpad. When CA releases that game people will be playing with Karl Franz and Empire Halberdiers while Games Workshop is pushing Sigmarine Hammerhammerers. Yeah it's like they forgot the lesson of Dawn of War where 40k got a huge boost of popularity from it. A bunch of PC gamers went "this game is awesome... wait, I can buy miniatures for it?!" and then GW modified the game to be more like Dawn of War. It's like they completely forgot that entire lesson.
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Jul 5, 2015 09:31
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Triple-Kan posted:I'm just catching up on this nonsense and it's heartbreaking. Can someone fill me in on what The End Times was, and why it's leading up to this weird Warhammer land where there's 7 different zones and Empire Space Marines? The whole thing looks like a really bad intro to 40K instead of it's own game. End Times was Chaos winning their campaign to wreck everything while Nagash came back from the dead and tried to take over, all the elves had a big war and the Skaven blew up the moon. Everyone died and the Lizardmen flew away in their spaceships. Now Age of Sigmor is some kind of weird future thing where the ghosts of all the heroes are fighting each other or something.
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Jul 5, 2015 09:40
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Unsurprisingly the WFB fanbase aren't ready to give up on it yet:quote:Small update Can't be any worse than what GW has done. The bar has been set very low. http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=129642&start=90
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Jul 5, 2015 09:47
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Mukip posted:I wonder what Creative Assembly makes of all this given that they are making Total War: Warhammer (which I assume will be pre-End Times). They got sold a dog even worse than I did. It's interesting that GW decided to poo poo the bed before Total Warhammer was even released instead of trying to use it as a launchpad. When CA releases that game people will be playing with Karl Franz and Empire Halberdiers while Games Workshop is pushing Sigmarine Hammerhammerers. Are you kidding? They got a gold mine. If they are the only way to experience the old warhammer fantasy, guess which game everyone will buy every few years.
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Jul 5, 2015 09:49
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Some people are suggesting that we should be grateful because at least GW gave us the End Times as a send-off to Warhammer, but when you understand that much of the nonsensical, stupid and generally unsatisfying events were about setting up AoS then it's not really a proper ending to the setting based on the original material, but an awkward attempt to retcon everything in a disingenuous manner that I now think displays appalling contempt for the fans of the setting. I like the Nagash book and thought it could be something cool and then took a look at the others books with mounting concern and horror. This whole debacle is worse than I ever could have imaginedBULBASAUR posted:Are you kidding? They got a gold mine. If they are the only way to experience the old warhammer fantasy, guess which game everyone will buy every few years. Yeah I think you're right, actually. Still, it must be weird for somebody in either GW or CA because they've committed to spending several years producing expansions for Total Warhammer to include more races and lands on that planet that GW blew up and replaced all the names with. People will play the game and maybe look into Dark Elves and Naggaroth online to see what this Warhammer game is all about, only to find that they are now Aelfs in the Realm of Trademark Nounverb and Naggaroth has been obliterated and all that other weird stuff in Khaine which they'll read in some wiki. People will be scratching their heads about all this for years to come. Mukip fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 09:54
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What the gently caress was the End Times? Everyone thought it was a way of easing people in a new edition and a bunch of the rules from it would be in 9th, but it turns out that was too logical a move for GW. It wasn't a way to update fantasy enough so you could play that instead of Age of Sigmar as all the books have been now pulled. It wasn't to tell a transition story to the "Age of Sigmar" either because, really, why was it necessary. All the old heroes and villains are back anyways and Stormcast eternals could have fit into the existing universe. I can only assume that "The End Times" was the previous CEO's plan to resurrect Warhammer Fantasy and use it as "9th Edition". Then the new CEO decided to dump that plan and implement "The Age of Sigmar" and released all of the "End Times" stuff early and rushed just to recoup money. Cause really, the first two books of "The End Times" had a lot of thought put into them... "Khaine" not so much and the last two were just vomited out as if they only had a few weeks to finish them and intended something much longer. And really, "Age of Sigmar" really feels slapped together. It's like the new CEO gave them 6 months to put it together, with the edicts that the rules had to be short, no barriers to prevent people from buying models, and have space marines. They then took some Chaos Warriors that were probably meant for "The End Times" release and then really did grab a future "Blood Angel" army, scrapped off the futuristic bits, and rebrandeded them as "Storm Cast Eternals". As for rules, this seems like what they could get done fast enough to meet some ridiculous deadline.
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Jul 5, 2015 09:55
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I wish the rules were better, because this is exactly what I wanted. I wanted a wood elves army, a khorne demons army, a beastmen army, a deathrattler army - but not at the cost of needing all those boxes for the massive rank and file. AoS would have let me build up a couple of small warbands (like Infinity), but nope.
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Jul 5, 2015 09:58
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ijyt posted:AoS would have let me build up a couple of small warbands (like Infinity), but nope. if only there was a GW game that was a skirmish game that pitted small (<20 models) warbands against each other edit: if there's anyone around the Cleveland area that wants to play this magical game, let me know 
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Jul 5, 2015 10:05
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ijyt posted:I wish the rules were better, because this is exactly what I wanted. I wanted a wood elves army, a khorne demons army, a beastmen army, a deathrattler army - but not at the cost of needing all those boxes for the massive rank and file. AoS would have let me build up a couple of small warbands (like Infinity), but nope. Oh in some ways this was a great idea of GW, just executed incredibly poorly. The Warscrolls are fluffy as heck and it's really great they gave long neglected armies like Bretonnia a real update. A bunch of rules in it like the new Skaven "Advance through treachery" are strokes of genius and it looks like someone on this team actually cared. Just they then didn't take one of the numerous ways they could have balanced the game. They could have given point scores, they could have had a rule of "each side has an equal number of units" and then had strict sizes of the Units (Elf units of 10, Skaven Units of 30, ect), they could have had a sort of slot system where you could only take so many war machines or infantry, or something. But no, they just left that flying in the wind. Edit: Business Gorillas posted:if only there was a GW game that was a skirmish game that pitted small (<20 models) warbands against each other Mordheim, the most beloved game GW ever produced that they have steadfast refused to support in any way.
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Jul 5, 2015 10:09
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Shadeoses posted:End Times was Chaos winning their campaign to wreck everything while Nagash came back from the dead and tried to take over, all the elves had a big war and the Skaven blew up the moon. Everyone died and the Lizardmen flew away in their spaceships. Is there a more detailed explanation of the story? I can't quite tell if people are kidding about the whole Lizardmen thing.
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Jul 5, 2015 10:15
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