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spectralent posted:But is it not true that if the stuff doesn't synergise well you're going to get stomped by people who do know what synergises well? I'm not being rhetorical, I've never played warmachine because that was always the impression I got so maybe I've just been very badly misled. I think that impression is valid. There's a lot of combos and tricks in Warmachine that if you aren't aware of you will just outright lose the game. My friend was playing his 2nd game ever I think with a whole army he had just bought and the guy teaching him did a bunch of complicated stuff so that he basically did a caster kill of turn two (which soured my friend on the game for a while). Warmachine really does require a lot of MtG style meta knowledge but it doesn't shift nearly as frequently so you don't have to relearn as much. Of course people teaching the game should be explaining those synergies while they are doing them or before new players make obviously bad moves ("If you do that I'm just going to slam my jack into your low defense guy and knock down your high DEF warcaster then win so don't do that") and just preying on them for easy wins is a douche move regardless of the game system.
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Jul 6, 2015 12:42
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Radish posted:I think that impression is valid. There's a lot of combos and tricks in Warmachine that if you aren't aware of you will just outright lose the game. My friend was playing his 2nd game ever I think with a whole army he had just bought and the guy teaching him did a bunch of complicated stuff so that he basically did a caster kill of turn two (which soured my friend on the game for a while). Warmachine really does require a lot of MtG style meta knowledge but it doesn't shift nearly as frequently so you don't have to relearn as much. Definitely agreed, no question. I think "If you do that I'm going to X and gently caress your poo poo up, you could do Y or Z instead and those things will probably mean A" is probably the ideal way to do things if there's no beginner scenario or other newbies to play.
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Jul 6, 2015 12:49
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Radish posted:I think that impression is valid. There's a lot of combos and tricks in Warmachine that if you aren't aware of you will just outright lose the game. My friend was playing his 2nd game ever I think with a whole army he had just bought and the guy teaching him did a bunch of complicated stuff so that he basically did a caster kill of turn two (which soured my friend on the game for a while). Warmachine really does require a lot of MtG style meta knowledge but it doesn't shift nearly as frequently so you don't have to relearn as much. I mean, yeah, you can't just go in without knowing what your opponents army does and win if he knows what all your stuff does. I really dont think thats a strike against the game. The thing is, I can see why its offputting, but its not like they were playing with hundreds of models and it took a long time to set up. You can just start another game, and be like, ok, now I know you have that trick, how can I stop it? All the tricks in the game that are stupid one turn win combos can be totally shut down once you know them, and most of them work in roughly the same way, so once you understand it you can start seeing how an army you've never played against could accomplish it, just by looking at the rules. But your friend could have won that game. He ALSO had a bullshit combo that would have let him win out of no-where. (Without knowing who he played, I can just assume so, nearly everyone does). It's really not 'meta knowledge', its just knowing how the game works. Its like if you played a fighting game, and your opponent did a combo on you, calling the game bullshit meta and walking away. Yeah knowing all the various combos that everyone in a particular fighting game can do will help you win, but I could pick up a fighting game I've never played and know that I can probably break blocks with throws, cancel a hit into a special, that a supermove will do a lot of damage that a mixup will be harder to block, etc etc and use that info to eek out a win. Its more that sort of stuff than like, 'Picking Zangief into Honda is autoloss this month because of a patch where last week it was an autowin'. (I have no idea if that's anywhere near true). Edit: Also, Gators and Pirates are from Minions and Mercenaries respectively, which everyone warns newer players away from, purely because they are a bit more restrictive in what you can actually field. But they're both legit as all get out. !Klams fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 12:56
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It was using a stuff that were specifically rules on the model's cards so it was the first time my friend had seen some of those abilities. I've done it myself with my Shae list where I just have all these 4+ ward pirates that can't get knocked down and then charging from over a foot away and the other guy is just like "What the hell just happened" and I felt bad. I also pissed off a guy who had played a while but didn't know about the "throw the cannon since it can't get knocked down to make it shoot farther" trick since no one had done it in the store where he played. Warmachine (and also Malifaux) definitely have unit combos that until you see them, actively research stuff on battlecollege, or are really good at making sure you read every card your opponent is using will catch you off guard massively the first time you see them. I'm just saying that with newer players in those games it's best to explain what is going on since they do have MtG style synergies which are not immediately obvious, especially to Warmammer players where most stuff is much more straightforward. Also yeah I made the mistake with mercs and minions since when we got in we were all totally inexperienced and didn't have anyone telling us which forces weren't beginner friendly. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 13:07
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Radish posted:It was using a stuff that were specifically rules on the model's cards so it was the first time my friend had seen some of those abilities. I've done it myself with my Shae list where I just have all these 4+ ward pirates that can't get knocked down and then charging from over a foot away and the other guy is just like "What the hell just happened" and I felt bad. I also pissed off a guy who had played a while but didn't know about the "throw the cannon since it can't get knocked down to make it shoot farther" trick since no one had done it in the store where he played. Warmachine (and also Malifaux) definitely have unit combos that until you see them, actively research stuff on battlecollege, or are really good at making sure you read every card your opponent is using will catch you off guard massively the first time you see them. I'm just saying that with newer players in those games it's best to explain what is going on since they do have MtG style synergies which are not immediately obvious, especially to Warmammer players where most stuff is much more straightforward. Yeah, certainly, there are combos and stuff, but, I mean I guess that's why Warmahordes is more of a skirmish game. You play with 20 odd models, but you can do about 5 times as many different things as a Warhammer army with triple the model count. And once someone knows that bullshit play, they can counter it. If your friend had read the cards that were there in front of him to read, he might not have lost to it. Certainly the second time around, he would account for it. That's why its more skill intensive, because you have to know what's going on to win. Its the difference between having a strategy and having tactics, right? And that's also why Warmachine is more fun, because there's more of that puzzle element to it, I guess its like Starcraft vs Command and Conquer, where in SC you have to know what everything does and control it well, in C&C you build loads of tanks and smash them together. If you come from C&C to Starcraft and expect your strat to work, then you're probably in for a bit of a rude awakening. But if you actually take the time to learn how stuff works, you realise you CAN do a big tankrush or a troopspam and win, but it takes some finesse and more planning. But the point is, none of this is really 'keeping up with a shifting meta', or 'Rock Paper Scissors I lost before we put down models' that people are worried about, its just that the more you know about the game, the better you'll be at it. I personally don't see that as a criticism of it.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:24
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!Klams posted:But the point is, none of this is really 'keeping up with a shifting meta', or 'Rock Paper Scissors I lost before we put down models' that people are worried about, its just that the more you know about the game, the better you'll be at it. I personally don't see that as a criticism of it. I don't think it's a criticism more than just how the game is. Some people don't like having to keep up with tons of enemy units and abilities that radically change the game (there's a decent amount of stuff that directly counters other stuff) and some do. Part of tournament play is taking two lists since stuff is really weak against other lists and thinking about which one you are going to use when you find out the faction you are paired up against. I think it's a good game and I'd play it more if I had some friends that were into it (a bunch ended up in Malifaux or just continued with 40k) or lived close to a game store where there was a community for it.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:36
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they're being pretty transparent about this fantasy space marines thing, huh
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Jul 6, 2015 13:51
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He just looks confused and sad about being there.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:59
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Just imagine the kind of rules you could develop with $2M.
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Jul 6, 2015 14:05
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moths posted:Just imagine the kind of rules you could develop with $2M. You could easily hire a university math department to properly balance your game.
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Jul 6, 2015 14:06
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Radish posted:He just looks confused and sad about being there. It's the only expression they have.
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Jul 6, 2015 14:08
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When you look at it like that, it's like someone paid a guy with a nice 3D printer to make a figure of their World of Warcraft character then replaced the head from a model that wasn't the same scale.
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Jul 6, 2015 14:20
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So, has anyone got a link that consolidates a list of all of the crazy whacked out poo poo that GW has sprung in this new release?
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Jul 6, 2015 14:27
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!Klams posted:So, has anyone got a link that consolidates a list of all of the crazy whacked out poo poo that GW has sprung in this new release? I think we are still finding new poo poo. The 21 different type of shield rules is all sorts of 
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Jul 6, 2015 14:38
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TKIY posted:I think we are still finding new poo poo. The 21 different type of shield rules is all sorts of Try counting the amount of rules that let you reroll 1s on your attacks. I could swear it's the most common rule and it's such a waste of the players time given how insignificant each attack in the game is due to the lovely math that permeates the entire mess. And it pops up every few entries as if the game designers either didn't want to bother coming up with something interesting or just couldn't think of any other ways to modify attacks. Gotta roll more dice, yo.
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Jul 6, 2015 14:46
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I want to see the Bolter statue's head poking out of the dumpster in the alley.
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Jul 6, 2015 15:01
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What does this new statue say about AOS being some corporate presidents baby he forced through to complete his vision?
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Jul 6, 2015 15:33
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I made the mistake of pulling up the rules and the warscrolls for Lizardmen and take a look at this. Basically every unit says it adds 'summon X' to the Slann's spell list, but it totally isn't clear what that means. Is it an alternative way of deploying units? It doesn't actually say that anywhere, but the fact that it appears on lots of character units suggests that? Although, on closer look, there doesn't actually seem to be anything saying that named characters are unique - it looks like you could technically take as many Lord Kroaks as you felt like, as bizarre as that seems. The other option is that bringing a Stegadon allows me to summon more Stegadons? Or basically, anything? It seems like I need to at least have the unit in my army, but I am 100% sure someone is going to argue otherwise. But the fact that bring a unit of Skinks or Kroxigor just allows you to keep pooping out more of those units with apparently no limit is nuts. You can just bring a bunch of Slann and spend turns duplicating your army - Slann can cast three spells a turn, and while your opponent can work to dispell they're going to have to bring a lot of mages to stop you spawning an endless tide of Lizardmen. Given that the basic victory condition for the game is 'clear the board', it's kind of strange. The naming system on this is giving me a headache. Skinks have 'Star-bucklers' and 'Moonstone Clubs' or 'Meteoric Javelins'. Kroxigor have 'Drakebite Mauls'. Terradon riders have 'Starstrike Javelins'. No one has basic equipment. Even fundamentally simple things have been strangely renamed; Chameleon skinks use 'Dartpipes' because for some reason we can't say blowpipe, and even the Kroxigor's bite is named 'Vice-like Jaws'. Saurus has 'Fearsome Jaws' and Cold Ones have 'Vicious Bite'. It feels like every piece of the unit was created by some sort of alien intelligence who learned about names from Diablo's random drops. It's weird to me how half-hearted the rebranding is. Like we are now supposed to be in the AGE OF SIGMAR and they make a point that these reptilian warriors are 'Seraphon' now, but the rules and batallion are still labeled as Lizardmen. It feels they're rolling their eyes at their own release.
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Jul 6, 2015 15:51
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It's weird since a lot of money, effort, and planning went into this but at the same time it's really lazy and disorganized.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:03
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Ashcans posted:
Yeah, each unit has the 'Slann Wizzards know the 'Summon X' spell' on it, and the spell is described right under that paragraph - usually goes off on a 5 or 6, and deploy a unit of X (where X can be a named character like Chakax or Tehenhauin) within 15" and more than 9" away from the caster. So as long as you start with that unit on the table, you can summon more of them. Put down 5 units of 1 guy, and summon in units of 100 while keeping the Sudden Death advantage For added stupidity, bring Tetto'Eko, who can then summon himself. Summoned models can't move that turn, but nothing says they can't cast, so the new Tetto'Eko can try and summon another one right away ! (and so can that one.... until you roll bad or run out of space) 
Renfield fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 16:11
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TKIY posted:I wish I liked Warmahordes better but it's the epitome of 'memorize all of the unbeatable combos and hard counter them' gameplay that I detest. So it's a perfect replacement for Warhammer Fantasy?  Are there more unbeatable combos than the three normally floating around fantasy?
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Jul 6, 2015 16:16
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Doctor Borris posted:What does this new statue say about AOS being some corporate presidents baby he forced through to complete his vision? Enjoy the unveiling speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6oOqkUGsxs
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Jul 6, 2015 16:23
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Speaking of lizardmen, why the gently caress are saurus demons now?
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Jul 6, 2015 16:26
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Indolent Bastard posted:Enjoy the unveiling speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6oOqkUGsxs "Age of Sigmar is Games Workshop at its very best, and every single one of you has had some part to play in the creation of this fantastic game, you should all be very proud of yourselves and very proud of the business." They actually have no loving idea. Not a single one.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:28
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Safety Factor posted:Speaking of lizardmen, why the gently caress are saurus demons now? It looks like anything that can be summoned has also been listed as a Daemon?
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Jul 6, 2015 16:30
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hooman posted:"Age of Sigmar is Games Workshop at its very best, and every single one of you has had some part to play in the creation of this fantastic game, you should all be very proud of yourselves and very proud of the business." No, a lot of them must know how absolutely retarded this game is. However, they want to keep their jobs so no one says anything. It's quite literally Emperor Sigmar's New Clothes.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:34
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TKIY posted:No, a lot of them must know how absolutely retarded this game is. However, they want to keep their jobs so no one says anything. Its as if the entire thread was a setup for this joke. Bravo.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:35
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Cross posting from the death thread, There's a new GW opened in Chatham, UK, near me. It's about 20m from where the druggies do there heroin deals in the evenings, and while I was in the shop looking at the Sigmarines, a local walked in and was clearly looking to see what he could grab and run out with later- it's a poor area with a lot of low-level crime. Also, it's looks like this:  From that speech to this, I wonder just how many resources there pouring into AoS
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Jul 6, 2015 16:48
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Renfield posted:From that speech to this, I wonder just how many resources there pouring into AoS You could put a bet on it in that William Hill next door! (bookies for you guys in the States)
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Jul 6, 2015 16:56
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TKIY posted:No, a lot of them must know how absolutely retarded this game is. However, they want to keep their jobs so no one says anything. Actually you will find it is called.. The Aristocrats.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:57
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We just got a solicitation for a $74.00 Age of Sigmar book at work, due out on the 18th. Maybe the rumors about a larger book with better rules were right?! Which, I was thinking about it, would make sense. It's basically taking a page from what Wizards of the Coast did when they brought out 5th edition. First they released the intro box, then a month later the Player's Handbook and then a month after that the Monster Manual and then finally the DM's Guide. Made it easy to transition and spread out the purchases a bit. GW could easily be doing the same thing, the boxed set is a bare-bones rule set to get players into the game, with expanded (more complex?) rules coming out later. Of course, the big difference is that Wizards was very open with what they were doing, so players knew what to expect and could plan accordingly. Preview articles abounded and there was no mystery. Whereas GW decided continue to keep everything so much a secret to the point that, hey, maybe full AoS rules are decent, but how many people will never bother to check it out because of this mess?
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Jul 6, 2015 16:59
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The thing is the core rules don't work and I doubt they're gonna suddenly change everything to bring back formations and base-to-base measuring. Best case scenario would be they put the points cost for every unit in one book and hid them on the WARSCROLLS which would be sort of insane. E; for the record I don't doubt they'll bring out a bigger book, I just think it'll mostly be fluff, scenarios, pictures and maybe a formation or two or some generic magic item equivalents. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 17:04
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ADudeWhoAbides posted:We just got a solicitation for a $74.00 Age of Sigmar book at work, due out on the 18th. Maybe the rumors about a larger book with better rules were right?! Where do you work?
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Jul 6, 2015 17:09
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Indolent Bastard posted:Enjoy the unveiling speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6oOqkUGsxs So this is how fantasy dies... with thunderous applause
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Jul 6, 2015 17:17
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I'm trying to work out where the William Hill is. Is that on the high street?
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Jul 6, 2015 17:25
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TKIY posted:Where do you work? At a US based game distributor. Please don't doxx me! 
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Jul 6, 2015 17:28
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ADudeWhoAbides posted:At a US based game distributor. Please don't doxx me! God no, just more wondering why you would get a random solicitation from GeeDub. $78 at cost or retail?
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Jul 6, 2015 17:32
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Skinty McEdger posted:I'm trying to work out where the William Hill is. Is that on the high street? 14 Military Road Chatham. https://goo.gl/maps/PXp5W It would be more obvious if there wasn't a truck in the way. It looks like Warhammer replaced a Hairdresser called Creme Group. Indolent Bastard fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 17:33
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Yeah, they're renaming al the GW stores 'Warhammer'. Canterbury's was switched a few weeks ago. The best bit is, from a distance the white-on-black beginning with a W makes them tricky to distinguish from Waterstones book shops.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:37
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come on gw, you can turn this whole thing around by saying "nigmos are real". im ready
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