Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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Ensign Expendable: Nov 11, 2008; Lager beer is proof that god loves us; Pillbug

PittTheElder posted:

Somebody care to explain to me exactly how a mortar works, meaning where the propellant lives inside of it? Looking at this:

Is the bulk of the propellant actually in the central body there, meaning it fires out the tail almost like a rocket? How much of it is actually propellant - is it some tiny amount in the tail, and the bulk of the body is actually filled with payload?

There is barely any propellant, most of that is good old HE.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 22:55

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# ? May 26, 2024 20:14

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Grand Prize Winner posted:

Light infantry tactics? Like jaegers or voltigeurs or what-have-you? Or does this mean something else?

Something like that, I think. Sorry, I couldn't find the English expression and my translation site got confused by that word.

To try and explain this, during the French revolution it turned out training conscripted mass armies up to the insane degree of the old Prussian army was really loving hard. The column tactic was one solution, but the Sch�tzentaktik was another: Large swarms of individual soldiers were send forward as some sort of screen and behind this vanguard the better trained soldiers formed into lines and columns when necessary.

The French armies during the revolution used this kind of ineffectually, but Napoleon reformed the French military so they could flexibly use all three tactics when appropriate. So if some dumbasses formed up in thin, tight lines in the open while the French soldiers where still in perfect cover, the French would just stay dispersed under cover and shoot, instead of forming lines themselves. Under old Friederician logic, your soldiers are actually supposed to come out of cover and rank up just like their enemies, so their massed musket salvoes can actually hit something. Advances in tactics, strategy and technology made this more and more unnecessary, though. The old Prussian army of 1807 just never got the memo until it was too late.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 23:03

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

Yes, all the propellant is clustered around the neck between the body and tail. You can fit extra propellant charges around that neck for extra range as well.

A mortar tube is basically a gun barrel and mortar bombs are more like conventional bullets or shells, rather than rockets. All the propellant goes off at once, produces bunch of gas that shoots the bomb into the air. It travels off that initial energy and hits the ground pointing downwards.

Deteriorata posted:

The propellent is the blobby stuff in the narrow area above the fins. There's a long firing pin at the bottom of the projectile, which fires the charge when it hits the bottom of the tube. The top of the projectile is large to seal the gases in. Additional charges can be wrapped around the base to give additional propulsion as necessary.

We're used to seeing stuff propelled from behind, so the fins are confusing.

Ensign Expendable posted:

There is barely any propellant, most of that is good old HE.

Ah, yeah ok, I was definitely forgetting that the mortar upper body would form a seal on the outside of the tube like a conventional gun projectile. I saw bits in the wikipedia article about adding extra rings of propellant, but I couldn't picture how that worked until just now.

Thanks!

# ? Jul 6, 2015 23:05

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

More specifically the extra charges are slotted discs that fit around the shaft with the propellant inside.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Jul 6, 2015 23:10

Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

Libluini posted:

In short, they really reformed the army.

They used Napoleon's army as a template and completely altered how the Prussian army works. Historians even differentiate between the old Prussian army (died 1807) and the new Prussian army (after 1807). The old Prussian army was a mess of mercenaries and normal soldiers, recruited by old arcane rules, the new Prussian army was a true people's army founded on a new, reformed and equitable nation-wide draft. (The old Kantonsystem was a weird and strange thing in comparison. It only drafted people officially enrolled in it and only when the state felt like it. Which was often too late for training and equipping before the war was on. It was like a draft only for poor people enforced by lazy people.)

If you wanted to be a totally sweet dude, you could also pull a Clausewitz and join the Russian Army while Prussia bumbles about losing to Napoleon and then come back just in time for rad reforms, cool victories and Gebhard von Blucher's ladykiller moustache.

So dreamy. :allears:

# ? Jul 7, 2015 01:00

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

so that napoleon bonaparte sounds like an interesting fellow, anyone got a good resource on him

# ? Jul 7, 2015 01:26

vains: May 26, 2004; A Big Ten institution offering distance education catering to adult learners

Taerkar posted:

More specifically the extra charges are slotted discs that fit around the shaft with the propellant inside.

slotted discs=increments

# ? Jul 7, 2015 01:56

AceRimmer: Mar 18, 2009

Ask Us About Military History: Slotted Discs That Fit Around the Shaft

# ? Jul 7, 2015 02:04

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Don't kinkshame mortars.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 02:07

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

V. Illych L. posted:

apparently harald hardr�de (the guy who lost the battle of stanford bridge) did this also

i suspect that it's one of those things that people say about generals

I wonder if it's a Viking thing? I heard the same tactic was used during the Norman conquest of Sicily.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 02:20

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Taerkar posted:

More specifically the extra charges are slotted discs that fit around the shaft with the propellant inside.

There were different types of increments used as well.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 02:21

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Squalid posted:

I wonder if it's a Viking thing? I heard the same tactic was used during the Norman conquest of Sicily.

Considering it appears in the Arthashastra (among other sources) absolutely not. Also, I do not recall any tactical depth from the available sources regarding the Norman conquest of Sicily, but it's been some years since I attended the presentation on the subject.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 03:07

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

AceRimmer posted:

Ask Us About Military History: ~~Slotted~~Explosive Discs That Fit Around the Shaft

FTFY.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 03:41

Grand Prize Winner: Feb 19, 2007

V. Illych L. posted:

so that napoleon bonaparte sounds like an interesting fellow, anyone got a good resource on him

Sadly, there isn't much surviving about this Napoleon in the historical record. He was a tribal leader/CEO in the western part of Greater Denmark some time between The Iberian Succession Crisis and the World's Second War. Figurines and statuary survive on the Off-Coast Islands indicating that he may have been worshiped or feared as a devil-figure before his reign collapsed, likely due to betrayal by one of his mistresses.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 04:20

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Considering it appears in the Arthashastra (among other sources) absolutely not. Also, I do not recall any tactical depth from the available sources regarding the Norman conquest of Sicily, but it's been some years since I attended the presentation on the subject.

Weeelll I heard that from a History Channel documentary, so just as likely its a cool sounding legend repeated with different characters and settings.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 04:41

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Squalid posted:

Weeelll I heard that from a History Channel documentary, so just as likely its a cool sounding legend repeated with different characters and settings.

It's not a legend though?

# ? Jul 7, 2015 05:16

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Yet again I am reminded of the Hawkmoon books and their ancient gods who fought over Europe.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 05:34

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Ask Us About Military History: Explosive Discs on the Shaft Make Longer Shots

# ? Jul 7, 2015 05:41

Keldoclock: Jan 5, 2014; by zen death robot

Why are we still using double and triple base gunpowder in our guns?

Why have we not yet seen Octogen, CL-20, or other high explosive propellants. I understand there is a significant increase in cost, but not even in sniper rifles do we see these improved propellants. Why are we, in the 21st century, killing each other with end of the 19th century technology?

Similarly, why do we use lead and not tungsten in our high performance bullets?

EDIT: I found some tungsten bullets. Apparently instead of looking at hunting rounds by ballistic coefficient, the way to find tungsten and other exotic material bullets is by asking your local dealer for armor piercing.

Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jul 7, 2015

# ? Jul 7, 2015 05:46

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Keldoclock posted:

Why are we still using double and triple base gunpowder in our guns?

Why have we not yet seen Octogen, CL-20, or other high explosive propellants. I understand there is a significant increase in cost, but not even in sniper rifles do we see these improved propellants. Why are we, in the 21st century, killing each other with end of the 19th century technology?

Similarly, why do we use lead and not tungsten in our high performance bullets?

Because that poo poo's expensive to engineer barrels for and/or produce.

e: It also doesn't really achieve more than marginal additional effectiveness compared to current issue. When armies start fielding powered armor then the tungsten penetrators and HE propellants might come in handy.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 05:49

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Also, y'know, softer stuff fragments more easily on impact, and fragments gently caress you right up.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 05:58

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Keldoclock posted:

Why are we still using double and triple base gunpowder in our guns?

Why have we not yet seen Octogen, CL-20, or other high explosive propellants. I understand there is a significant increase in cost, but not even in sniper rifles do we see these improved propellants. Why are we, in the 21st century, killing each other with end of the 19th century technology?

Similarly, why do we use lead and not tungsten in our high performance bullets?

EDIT: I found some tungsten bullets. Apparently instead of looking at hunting rounds by ballistic coefficient, the way to find tungsten and other exotic material bullets is by asking your local dealer for armor piercing.

Haha isn't CL-20 the one that's only stable at temperatures below 100 Fahrenheit while bonded with TNT?

# ? Jul 7, 2015 06:04

Keldoclock: Jan 5, 2014; by zen death robot

Arquinsiel posted:

Also, y'know, softer stuff fragments more easily on impact, and fragments gently caress you right up.

Yes, but if the bullet is denser, you can make it smaller, which means it will maintain supersonic speed longer, therefore increasing accuracy.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Haha isn't CL-20 the one that's only stable at temperatures below 100 Fahrenheit while bonded with TNT?

While people have mixed CL-20 with TNT in an attempt to make it less explosive, CL-20 will not explode unless heated to a temperature of 150 degrees C or higher, according to existing scientific literature. I do not know of it's shock resistance, but I would be willing to use a highly unstable explosive if it meant potentially doubling or tripling the range at which I could produce accurate fire. There are plenty of solutions, for example packaging that insulates from temperature or shock, or mixing your ammunition immediately prior to using it. I do not think it would be substantially harder to use than existing .50 cal sniper platforms.But what do I know, right? I'm just an amateur.

EDIT: The American Physical Society has a paper in its journals that claims " No phase change (from the starting epsilon phase) was observed under hydrostatic compression up to 6.3 GPa at ambient temperature" for CL-20. For comparison to the layman, 48 GPa is the pressure at which CL-20 explodes, and diamonds melt without turning into graphite at 1.5 GPa. This is something like 1 million PSI.

Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jul 7, 2015

# ? Jul 7, 2015 06:32

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Keldoclock posted:

While people have mixed CL-20 with TNT in an attempt to make it less explosive, CL-20 will not explode unless heated to a temperature of 150 degrees C or higher, according to existing scientific literature. I do not know of it's shock resistance, but I would be willing to use a highly unstable explosive if it meant potentially doubling or tripling the range at which I could produce accurate fire. There are plenty of solutions, for example packaging that insulates from temperature or shock, or mixing your ammunition immediately prior to using it. I do not think it would be substantially harder to use than existing .50 cal sniper platforms.But what do I know, right? I'm just an amateur.

This is some wunderwaffe poo poo right here. Nobody's going to be playing scout-sniper in the bush with either unmixed ammo chemicals or some kind of loading system that does it in the magazine/chamber. War production relies a bunch on statistics. Throwing extra poo poo into a mechanism means that's extra poo poo that you need to plan on replacing while getting shot at in some sandtrap. Infantry already double or triple their effective range with stuff like CAS and artillery.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 06:41

Keldoclock: Jan 5, 2014; by zen death robot

FAUXTON posted:

This is some wunderwaffe poo poo right here.

You're almost certainly right. I have only ever considered the potential destructive power of a weapon as used by a single or small group of men. I've never had an army to command so I am very unfamiliar with what exactly can be accomplished by just telling some minor commander to do some objective.

Oh well. A boy can dream.

Do we have any people in this thread currently in a commanding role in a military? Perhaps you could enlighten us with what the experience is like. Like, a Major or Lt. Col or equivalent. We probably have at least a handful that are goons, right?

Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Jul 7, 2015

# ? Jul 7, 2015 06:45

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

Keldoclock posted:

You're almost certainly right. I have only ever considered the potential destructive power of a weapon as used by a single or small group of men. I've never had an army to command so I am very unfamiliar with what exactly can be accomplished by just telling some minor commander to do some objective.

Oh well. A boy can dream.

Do we have any people in this thread currently in a commanding role in a military? Perhaps you could enlighten us with what the experience is like. Like, a Major or Lt. Col or equivalent. We probably have at least a handful that are goons, right?

Yes, Grover was a a very high ranking military man with a lot of military authority. You should send him a PM.

Also, the guy who was an ultra cool navy SEAL that hated "trannies" and definitely was not a nerdy programmer with an unhealthy relationship with his trans girlfriend

# ? Jul 7, 2015 06:53

Cast_No_Shadow: Jun 8, 2010; The Republic of Luna Equestria is a huge, socially progressive nation, notable for its punitive income tax rates. Its compassionate, cynical population of 714m are ruled with an iron fist by the dictatorship government, which ensures that no-one outside the party gets too rich.

I think that would make a good effort post, how command structures work in your era, and what each level can be expected to achieve. Especially if someone can fill in the now era, even if its not history to serve as a comparison.

Also Hey Gal wheres the effort post you promised!

# ? Jul 7, 2015 07:00

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

Back on the horse. That was a busier weekend than I was expecting!

100 Years Ago

Yesterday's yesterday: The last day of attacks at the Battle of Gully Ravine, Cadorna's blown his last chance of achieving anything at First Isonzo, back on the 2nd Louis Barthas walks among the casualties, and another attack on Konigsberg is imminent down in Africa.

Yesterday: The said attack doesn't appear to have heard of the 7 Ps; it fails, due mostly to entirely forseeable circumstances, and now they'll have to wait a while before trying again. The Ottomans are reorganising themselves at Cape Helles but need to hurry lest they get caught with their trousers down, and Louis Barthas considers how he himself survived that big shell.

Today: Henry Pedris faces a firing squad in Sri Lanka, which will lead directly to a serious and ultimately successful independence movement (bravo, Empire). General Joffre hosts a jolly at Chantilly for all his commander-in-chief mates, at which (among other things) there's wide approval for that oaf Cadorna, even while First Isonzo is officially ending. Kenneth Best meets the stereotypical Irish priest Father B. Jabers, and back on the 2nd, Barthas stops to reflect that his squad has now been almost completely destroyed.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 11:13

Saint Celestine: Dec 17, 2008; Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.
- Saint Sabbat, Lessons; Grimey Drawer

Trin Tragula posted:

Back on the horse. That was a busier weekend than I was expecting!

100 Years Ago

Yesterday's yesterday: The last day of attacks at the Battle of Gully Ravine, Cadorna's blown his last chance of achieving anything at First Isonzo, back on the 2nd Louis Barthas walks among the casualties, and another attack on Konigsberg is imminent down in Africa.

Ah... The First Isonzo...

# ? Jul 7, 2015 14:09

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Keldoclock posted:

EDIT: I found some tungsten bullets. Apparently instead of looking at hunting rounds by ballistic coefficient, the way to find tungsten and other exotic material bullets is by asking your local dealer for armor piercing.

I have to ask, what sort of (legitimate, non-Russian-mafia) dealer sells armour piercing bullets? :stonk:

Do deer wear Kevlar now?

# ? Jul 7, 2015 16:10

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

feedmegin posted:

I have to ask, what sort of (legitimate, non-Russian-mafia) dealer sells armour piercing bullets? Do deer wear Kevlar now?

Most guns stores i assume, it was a big kerfluffle when they tried to pass laws restricting them a bit ago.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 16:12

Slaan: Mar 16, 2009; ASHERAH DEMANDS I FEAST, I VOTE FOR A FEAST OF FLESH

Yeah, basically all of them from what I've seen. Though a lot keep them behind the counter, so you have to ask.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 16:21

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

feedmegin posted:

I have to ask, what sort of (legitimate, non-Russian-mafia) dealer sells armour piercing bullets?

Pretty much any rifle cartridge is "armor piercing" by some definition. Soft body armor simply isn't designed to stop anything moving that fast.

feedmegin posted:

Do deer wear Kevlar now?

5.56mm/.223 caliber is widely considered the bare minimum to humanely take small deer. More popular (and humane) deer loads in the 7-8mm range will defeat even some hard armor plates.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 16:34

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Keldoclock posted:

Yes, but if the bullet is denser, you can make it smaller, which means it will maintain supersonic speed longer, therefore increasing accuracy.

While people have mixed CL-20 with TNT in an attempt to make it less explosive, CL-20 will not explode unless heated to a temperature of 150 degrees C or higher, according to existing scientific literature. I do not know of it's shock resistance, but I would be willing to use a highly unstable explosive if it meant potentially doubling or tripling the range at which I could produce accurate fire. There are plenty of solutions, for example packaging that insulates from temperature or shock, or mixing your ammunition immediately prior to using it. I do not think it would be substantially harder to use than existing .50 cal sniper platforms.But what do I know, right? I'm just an amateur.

EDIT: The American Physical Society has a paper in its journals that claims " No phase change (from the starting epsilon phase) was observed under hydrostatic compression up to 6.3 GPa at ambient temperature" for CL-20. For comparison to the layman, 48 GPa is the pressure at which CL-20 explodes, and diamonds melt without turning into graphite at 1.5 GPa. This is something like 1 million PSI.

Logistics wins wars, not doubling or tripling the range at which you can produce accurate fire.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 16:41

the JJ: Mar 31, 2011

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Logistics wins wars, not doubling or tripling the range at which you can produce accurate fire.

And, frankly, engagements are a lot more limited by suppression, visibility, and adrenaline induced shaking than the theoretical upper limits of accuracy.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 16:53

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Logistics wins wars, not doubling or tripling the range at which you can produce accurate fire.

Especially when the range at which you can produce accurate fire is already well outside the range at which your soldiers can aim. A normal .308 or 8mm battle rifle of the last century is already mechanically capable of outshooting 99% of soldiers.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 16:54

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Saint Celestine posted:

Ah... The First Isonzo...

Yeah seriously we're only at first Isonzo. This is going to be a long war.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 17:00

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

WoodrowSkillson posted:

Most guns stores i assume, it was a big kerfluffle when they tried to pass laws restricting them a bit ago.

Laws restricting them have been on the books for decades. USC 18 921:

quote:

(A) The term �ammunition� means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term �armor piercing ammunition� means�
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term �armor piercing ammunition� does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Note that the definition is based on composition and weight, not actual empirical performance, and that rifle bullets aren't included, as pretty much any serious hunting cartridge is going to be able to blow through a considerable amount of armor even if it's just soft-nosed lead. But it also says "may" be used in a handgun, not "designed to be," or similar. So the issue a bit ago was that, since you can buy handguns chambered for 5.56mm, then all the steel-core SS109 or M855 out there could run afoul of that definition at the whim of the ATF. So they started making some noise that they were going to un-exempt that ammunition and a whole lot of people would fun themselves in illegal possession of a bunch of bullets.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 17:02

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

nevermind misread the above post.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 17:04

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# ? May 26, 2024 20:14

T___A: Jan 18, 2014; Nothing would go right until we had a dictator, and the sooner the better.

the JJ posted:

And, frankly, engagements are a lot more limited by suppression, visibility, and adrenaline induced shaking than the theoretical upper limits of accuracy.

Yes the best way to increase accuracy is to increase rounds fired, as the more rounds a soldier fires the more accurate he becomes. Also firing more than round per trigger pull also increases accuracy.

# ? Jul 7, 2015 17:30

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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