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Broniki posted:The crusade was triggered by game journalists showing that protecting their buddies and identity politics were their true priorities, not acknowledging the problems in the industry, calling out the people they liked for their lovely behaviour or, well, talking about games. Actually the belligerent stupidity of Gamers is a problem in the industry that needs to be acknowledged. quote:No one went a-bloo-bloo-bloo to the statement "gamers are dead"[1] they just took it as an affirmation of how contemptible games journalists were as they threw out a dozen articles of reactionary[2] hissy-fitting over the other shoe falling.[3] 1. Lie. 2. Actually the opposite of the definition of reactionary. 3. If we define "the other shoe falling" as "a bunch of loathsome shitheads spazzing out" then yes they did respond to this
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Jul 6, 2015 22:46
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Broniki posted:The crusade was triggered by game journalists showing that protecting their buddies and identity politics were their true priorities, not acknowledging the problems in the industry, calling out the people they liked for their lovely behaviour or, well, talking about games. Actually the crusade was triggered when an emotionally unstable man had a nasty breakup and aired all of his emotional dirty laundry regarding his ex, which then blew up from obscure gossip to some kind of allegation about collusion in indie gaming which turned out to be wholly unsubstantiated. Broniki posted:No one went a-bloo-bloo-bloo to the statement "gamers are dead" they just took it as an affirmation of how contemptible games journalists were as they threw out a dozen articles of reactionary hissy-fitting over the other shoe falling. Op-eds about social movements and the labels gamers use to identify themselves do not count as journalism about video games. Nor are the opinions of a handful of persons on the internet indicative of some kind of conspiracy to censor gamers. It seems as if you're upset that gamers were criticized at all, which doesn't seem to be a very mature way to begin discourse about the way people discuss video games.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:47
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Broniki posted:No one went a-bloo-bloo-bloo to the statement "gamers are dead"  https://twitter.com/search?q=%22gamers%20are%20dead%22&src=typd&vertical=default&f=images
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Jul 6, 2015 22:49
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As far as the Escapist goes, they also ran two articles about what devs think about GG. One was titled "What Developers Think About #GamerGate" and the other "What Female Developers Think About #GamerGate." They changed this when people pointed out that was pretty drat sexist. The Female article was all anonymous because no female devs wanted to become targets. The Male article was cherry picked GG supporters including people actually proven to be involved with the harassment. Also one of the dudes is making a Gorean RPG which is just such a perfect cherry on the poo poo sunday.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:50
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Actually the crusade was triggered when an emotionally unstable man had a nasty breakup and aired all of his emotional dirty laundry regarding his ex, which then blew up from obscure gossip to some kind of allegation about collusion in indie gaming which turned out to be wholly unsubstantiated. They still routinely forget that it was unsubstantiated, and the mob mentality of GG reinforces its own selective memory. How I'm expected to trust these people to make good, ethical decisions is anybody's guess.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:50
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Neurolimal posted:And no, "this dude shagged this lady and then acknowledged her game in a 50 games list" doesn't approach that. Hell, even if it did it wouldn't be anywhere NEAR the unethical practices the Games Industry participates in. And it's even portraying it like that is incorrect and more sensationalistic than the actual situation. Grayson's writings preceded their romantic relationship.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:52
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Broniki posted:No one went a-bloo-bloo-bloo to the statement "gamers are dead" They have and still do. 7c Nickel posted:Also one of the dudes is making a Gorean RPG which is just such a perfect cherry on the poo poo sunday. And yet this is the one example GG could give of being pro-feminist, or at least not rabidly anti-feminist at the expense of ethics. All pretty lol if you ask me.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:53
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ImpAtom posted:Well, that is the thing I legitimately don't understand. For a lot of pro-GGto seems they just want a disclose and up front honestly between the game reviewers and developers. (Both indie and mainstream) That why posters in this thread keep referring to David Auerbach article How to kill GamerGate which stated as much and would have nipped most of the moderates at the very beginning.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:54
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7c Nickel posted:As far as the Escapist goes, they also ran two articles about what devs think about GG. One was titled "What Developers Think About #GamerGate" and the other "What Female Developers Think About #GamerGate." They changed this when people pointed out that was pretty drat sexist. The Female article was all anonymous because no female devs wanted to become targets. The Male article was cherry picked GG supporters including people actually proven to be involved with the harassment. Also one of the dudes is making a Gorean RPG which is just such a perfect cherry on the poo poo sunday. To be fair, once people realized that there was someone on there that was involved with the abuse, they pulled his portion of the interview.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:54
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Archer666 posted:To be fair, once people realized that there was someone on there that was involved with the abuse, they pulled his portion of the interview. But I thought none of the online harassment comes from GamerGaters. Isn't that what GG has been saying the whole time?
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Jul 6, 2015 22:57
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Archer666 posted:To be fair, once people realized that there was someone on there that was involved with the abuse, they pulled his portion of the interview. You mean once they got called on it. The guy who put together the articles had donated to said Gorean RPG's kickstarter. He knew exactly who he was pushing forward as the voice of game developers.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:58
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Since GamerGate said that GamerGaters don't do harassment, and GamerGate never lies, then that means they pulled his portion of the interview for no reason. That sounds unethical to me. Why would GamerGate support an unethical source for gaming journalism?7c Nickel posted:You mean once they got called on it. The guy who put together the articles had donated to said Gorean RPG's kickstarter. He knew exactly who he was pushing forward as the voice of game developers. I'm surprised that Second Life isn't more popular with the GamerGate crowd. It seems like the perfect game for them.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:00
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7c Nickel posted:You mean once they got called on it. The guy who put together the articles had donated to said Gorean RPG's kickstarter. He knew exactly who he was pushing forward as the voice of game developers. Did he disclose this journalist-developer relation within the article? Gamergate supporters within this thread have stated that donating to a patreon is enough for a conflict of interest.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:01
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circ dick soleil posted:Since GamerGate said that GamerGaters don't do harassment, and GamerGate never lies, then that means they pulled his portion of the interview for no reason. That sounds unethical to me. Why would GamerGate support an unethical source for gaming journalism? No true gamer gator would do those things. Except for the people who started the movement, and named it. But stop talking about those people, or you are committing a fallacy.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:01
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Broniki posted:The crusade was triggered by game journalists showing that protecting their buddies and identity politics were their true priorities, not acknowledging the problems in the industry, calling out the people they liked for their lovely behaviour or, well, talking about games. The initial article doesn't even mention gamers are dead. It states that gamers are over. Hell, this post even contradicts itself in that you state that they don't acknowledge problems in the industry, yet they prioritized identity politics as if diversity wasn't a problem in the industry. I guess it isn't a problem in your eyes, but maybe they feel that it is a big problem. I mean the big loving elephant in the room is that there is that the largest gaming publication out there is owned by one of the largest video game retailers in the world.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:02
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circ dick soleil posted:But I thought none of the online harassment comes from GamerGaters. Isn't that what GG has been saying the whole time? You should ask that to someone who actually is pro-gg. 7c Nickel posted:You mean once they got called on it. The guy who put together the articles had donated to said Gorean RPG's kickstarter. He knew exactly who he was pushing forward as the voice of game developers. Now, this I didn't know. It makes the whole thing a lot funnier. Yeah, lets put forward the guy who everyone knows is a crazy rear end in a top hat. Surely nothing can go wrong.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:05
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circ dick soleil posted:They still routinely forget that it was unsubstantiated, and the mob mentality of GG reinforces its own selective memory. How I'm expected to trust these people to make good, ethical decisions is anybody's guess. There were chat logs that quinn confirmed though? By all reasonable accounts quinn emotionally and sexually abused her boyfriend and then a bunch of people covered for her with literal censorship followed by colluded smear campaigns. I was never quite sure when it turned into an ethics in video games journalism thing but as someone who was around when Eron's original manifesto went up the thing everyone was mad about was how everyone went to bat for a lovely person then tried to deflect all the criticism as misogynistic. Gamergate would have never been a thing if zoey got flung under the bus like tempkin did.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:05
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Neurolimal posted:Did he disclose this journalist-developer relation within the article? Gamergate supporters within this thread have stated that donating to a patreon is enough for a conflict of interest. I couldn't find anything about it on deepfreeze.it about his financial ties to the subject of that article. Is this another one of GamerGate's cover ups? Archer666 posted:You should ask that to someone who actually is pro-gg. They're free to answer if they wish. ArbitraryC posted:There were chat logs that quinn confirmed though? By all reasonable accounts quinn emotionally and sexually abused her boyfriend and then a bunch of people covered for her with literal censorship followed by colluded smear campaigns. I was never quite sure when it turned into an ethics in video games journalism thing but as someone who was around when Eron's original manifesto went up the thing everyone was mad about was how everyone went to bat for a lovely person then tried to deflect all the criticism as misogynistic. Gamergate would have never been a thing if zoey got flung under the bus like tempkin did. That's not what I was talking about, I was talking about the sleeping around for reviews that was proven to never have happened. Cool story though.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:10
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circ dick soleil posted:That's not what I was talking about, I was talking about the sleeping around for reviews that was proven to never have happened. Cool story though.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:14
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ArbitraryC posted:There were chat logs that quinn confirmed though? By all reasonable accounts quinn emotionally and sexually abused her boyfriend and then a bunch of people covered for her with literal censorship followed by colluded smear campaigns. I was never quite sure when it turned into an ethics in video games journalism thing but as someone who was around when Eron's original manifesto went up the thing everyone was mad about was how everyone went to bat for a lovely person then tried to deflect all the criticism as misogynistic. Gamergate would have never been a thing if zoey got flung under the bus like tempkin did. Would you care to explain how the personal details of a woman's relationship connect with ethics in games journalism? e: oh, I see that is mystifying to you as well. But I have an answer: misogyny.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:20
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Video games are fun and cool and a whole lot of people want to make them way more than they are, which is things that are fun and cool. Edit: Depression quest was a loving terrible game. It has nothing to do with who made it. A nerd savior like Schafer could have made it and it still would be one of the worst "video games" ever made.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:21
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ArbitraryC posted:It's not like they deleted thousands of reddit posts and circled the journalistic wagons on her for no reason. Well yeah, it's not like that at all. Unless you were being sarcastic and are actually saying that this entire shitshow was started over deleted reddit posts. Which would make it even more pathetic than it already is.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:22
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Gjoni (by his own admission) building a file on Quinn during and after the final days of their relationship by prowling her social media feeds, as well as the accounts that he physically abused her, do not exactly inspire confidence in his rambling screed. When you have mutual accusations of abuse (as is the case between Quinn and Gjoni), you may want to try and suss out if someone's DARVOing before you pass judgment. One set of questions you can ask is "Which one is trying to pursue the other by forcing open lines of communication?" and "Which one is trying to get away from the other?". That can tell you a lot. I doubt Quinn's "industry connections" are the reason she's secured a restraining order against Gjoni, and not vice versa. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 23:24
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Useful Distraction posted:this entire shitshow was started over deleted reddit posts. Which would make it even more pathetic than it already is. The large-scale suppression of any discussion about it certainly contributed, yes. It's curious just how much the topic upset your typical web forum moderator - even the places most open to the stupid and inane shuttered discussion because apparently this one topic was just too stupid and inane.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:25
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Knifegrab posted:Video games are fun and cool and a whole lot of people want to make them way more than they are, which is things that are fun and cool. If we begin from the premise that things are fun are always better than things that are not fun which are terrible then I suppose this follows but by that logic Transformers 4 is way better than Schindler's List.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:26
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Pyromancer posted:I don't think I misread it If that's what you read then sorry, but no, you did misread it. Look specifically at the quote (emphasis mine): SedanChair posted:Again, there is no "moving on" from what happened to Quinn. It is where the movement came from and where the name came from. If gamergaters disagree, it's time to disband their movement, stop using the name and scatter to the four winds. Notice the use of past tense. Again, you can claim genetic fallacy if you wish, but you fall into appeal to coincidence, fallacy of division, sampling bias and really just several fallacies. I appreciate your desire for robust debate but please either provide it yourself or stop using random arse-grabs to try and deny others the ability to question your position.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:28
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Useful Distraction posted:Well yeah, it's not like that at all. It did though, that's literally when it started. If the same communities and blogs that threw max under the bus gave Zoe the same treatment gamergate would have never been a thing. Instead zoe used her connections first to try and censor the issue, and then when that didn't work, to have an organized smear campaign that misrepresented people's grievances and characterized everything as misogynistic in nature. That's what created the original two sides, one full of the people who got poo poo on in a series of journal articles, the other full of people who took the onesided coverage as wholesale gospel. I think that's why it became more vague and about 'ethics in video game journalism', because the community felt really betrayed by the cronyism in how everything went down in the coverage. Now if you want to make the argument that no one should have taken Zoe to task over what she did to Eron in the first place, perhaps that' fair I don't really have an opinion, but when it's come to males in the industry that have had similar complaints levied against them, the people who are trying to be 'and why is a woman's sexlife your business?' certainly were doing the exact opposite.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:31
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Knifegrab posted:Video games are fun and cool and a whole lot of people want to make them way more than they are, which is things that are fun and cool. A nerd like Schafer could have made it and it would have been worse
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Jul 6, 2015 23:32
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BexGu posted:For a lot of pro-GGto seems they just want a disclose and up front honestly between the game reviewers and developers. (Both indie and mainstream) That why posters in this thread keep referring to David Auerbach article How to kill GamerGate which stated as much and would have nipped most of the moderates at the very beginning. I agree with some of his points but I disagree with others. I don't think all of the gaming press is crap. I think that there are quite a few people that are attempting to do what they can to advocate for the gaming industry to be more inclusive, which is something that has been at odds with GamerGate and it's accusations of censorship. Polygon must have changed its ethics values recently because it no longer mentions what he states in the article, which should make some of those moderates happy. The Kotaku stuff seems to be about a journalist donating to a Patreon account. I also think he makes the mistake of what most people made in this thread with, "Both sides are doing it!" I also disagree that Gamergate will go away simply because you do all those things. I don't know if you can be a moderate on a hashtag as virulent as that and I don't think Gamergate came out of nowhere. As he cites Brianna Wu on, this kind of stuff was taking place long before GamerGate was a thing. And I think that now that GG is here, it will be here to stay as cover for that kind of thing. Still, I do think people should take a look at that article.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:33
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ArbitraryC posted:That's what created the original two sides, one full of the people who got poo poo on in a series of journal articles, The people who made Quinn's phone (and those of her family members) ring off the hook with death threats, you mean. ArbitraryC posted:the other full of people who took the onesided coverage as wholesale gospel The people who don't think you should make people's phones ring off the hook with death threats, you mean.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:33
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Supercar Gautier posted:Gjoni (by his own admission) building a file on Quinn during and after the final days of their relationship by prowling her social media feeds, as well as the accounts that he physically abused her, do not exactly inspire confidence in his rambling screed. darvo is literally exactly what quinn did to eron. His chatlogs were irontight and zoe herself admitted to pretty much everything when pressed on it, eron was an actual victim here and the refusal to treat him like one is just due to gender bias in how we view abusive relationships.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:34
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BexGu posted:For a lot of pro-GGto seems they just want a disclose and up front honestly between the game reviewers and developers. (Both indie and mainstream) That why posters in this thread keep referring to David Auerbach article How to kill GamerGate which stated as much and would have nipped most of the moderates at the very beginning. That isn't really what that article ends up saying as near as I can tell. It basically paints 'moderate' GGers as blameless innocent people who only want ethical games journalism without actually citing what ethical games journalism is beyond some pretty extreme examples. I mean this article basically just says "these people don't have to make any concessions, everyone should concede to them." Which... I don't agree on because I still don't know what they want. I mean even here and now this conversation is still about Zoe Quinn. Why aren't people discussing Activision or EA or Square-Enix or Microsoft or Sony or Nintendo? Why is a fairly no-name game industry person even being discussed if this is about ethics in game journalism? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 23:34
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ArbitraryC posted:Instead zoe used her connections first to try and censor the issue Wait, what now? Which connections, how did she censor "the issue?" I'd like to say I'm (sadly) familiar with gamergate, but this is news to me.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:35
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Supercar Gautier posted:The people who made Quinn's phone (and those of her family members) ring off the hook with death threats, you mean. Yeah I mean there are bad people on all sides of things, death threats went both ways and several men who were pilloried on gawker and the likes got the exact same kind of harrassment. It's never a good thing but you're just being dishonest to characterize the entire movement as about it or to pretend like it's been an entirely one way street. Several of the prominent cases of harrassment were also shown to be entirely fabricated and I recall groups looking into it showing the number of gg related threatening tweets were actually very low.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:36
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Useful Distraction posted:Wait, what now? Which connections, how did she censor "the issue?" I'd like to say I'm (sadly) familiar with gamergate, but this is news to me.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:37
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ImpAtom posted:That isn't really what that article ends up saying as near as I can tell. It basically paints 'moderate' GGers as blameless innocent people who only want ethical games journalism without actually citing what ethical games journalism is beyond some pretty extreme examples. I think that is the issue I had the biggest problem with, and as far as I know, it seems to be what his main thesis revolves around. While I don't disagree that there are moderates in the movement, at some point you can't keep rolling with this poo poo and come out untainted. There is nothing stopping moderates from carving out a 3rd path and going their own way while dumping the GamerGate moniker.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:38
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ArbitraryC posted:When eron posted his manifesto and people were talking about it friends of quinn were the ones to bar discussion of it on forums and actively deleted thousands of posts on the topic and such. Which friends, which forums? Proof?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:40
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ArbitraryC posted:When eron posted his manifesto and people were talking about it friends of quinn were the ones to bar discussion of it on forums and actively deleted thousands of posts on the topic and such. As far as I can tell, it was mainly the moderators at reddit who did this. I know GamerGate likes to paint Zoe as a slut but she couldn't have possibly hosed all those people. Those "posts" included a bunch of her personal information and such, aswell. It was hardly proactive discussion.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:40
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Useful Distraction posted:Which friends, which forums? Proof?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:43
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Ddraig posted:As far as I can tell, it was mainly the moderators at reddit who did this. I know GamerGate likes to paint Zoe as a slut but she couldn't have possibly hosed all those people.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:45
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