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Crion posted:Then I look forward to all the sample Silver Ladders being empiricists, the sample Libertines being priests, the sample Guardians being whistleblowers and the sample Mystagogues being illiterate. You can play all those characters, so why not? Actually, it is pretty important to tell players they can play 'against type' - that you can be a Libertine who is a priest (focusing on the magic inherent to human culture and religion), or a Mystagogue who is a breakin artist and thief rather than a bookish nerd, or a Guardian who hides things by revealing other, less mystical secrets rather than everyone having to be lockstep to stereotype.
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Jul 8, 2015 02:50
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Mors Rattus posted:Why? Making the world better's a good way to fight them, plus it's a challenge and therefore a good avenue of self-improvement. That's kind of what the Arrow does. By your logic, no Pentacle mage should ever take part in any aspect of society, or in fact the Fallen World in general. Not at all. There's a difference between existing in a society and being an instrument of one of its most repressive institutions. Are you suggesting that the Adamantine Arrow is the guy in the group who would look at the world and say "you know, I want to change the system....from the inside!"?
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Jul 8, 2015 02:50
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Considering 'the system' is the entire loving universe, uh, yes. Mortal society and all its components are symptoms.
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Jul 8, 2015 02:50
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Mors Rattus posted:Actually, it is pretty important to tell players they can play 'against type' - that you can be a Libertine who is a priest (focusing on the magic inherent to human culture and religion), or a Mystagogue who is a breakin artist and thief rather than a bookish nerd, or a Guardian who hides things by revealing other, less mystical secrets rather than everyone having to be lockstep to stereotype. "all"
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Jul 8, 2015 02:51
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Mors Rattus posted:Actually, it is pretty important to tell players they can play 'against type' - that you can be a Libertine who is a priest (focusing on the magic inherent to human culture and religion), or a Mystagogue who is a breakin artist and thief rather than a bookish nerd, or a Guardian who hides things by revealing other, less mystical secrets rather than everyone having to be lockstep to stereotype. You can play against type. The two sample characters given to people reading about an order for the first time should not be only characters that go against type. They should be given sample characters that are prototypes of the order and its mainstream ideology.
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Jul 8, 2015 02:51
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tatankatonk posted:You can play against type. The two sample characters given to people reading about an order for the first time should not be given only characters that go against type. They should be given sample characters that are prototypes of the order and its mainstream ideology. Hell, you can even do one of each. But neither Arrow sample character is remotely approaching a typical Arrow as described earlier in the section.
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Jul 8, 2015 02:52
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Mors Rattus posted:Considering 'the system' is the entire loving universe, uh, yes. Mortal society and all its components are symptoms. Congratulations on accepting the red pill, Neo. Now, let me show you how you'll work as a beat cop for the next five years. tatankatonk fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 02:53
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Mors Rattus posted:Considering 'the system' is the entire loving universe, uh, yes. Mortal society and all its components are symptoms. Welcome to the Republican Party.
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Jul 8, 2015 02:54
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Mors Rattus posted:I would probably stare at the dude and be like 'okay, so should I go find another table to play my concept at?' Because I really don't understand what the point is at shooting down this idea. The point is to explain to the writer of the currently-unfinished project that the work he has been paid to do contains a blinkingly obvious paradox. I'm personally fine with characters going against type at my table, but I don't feel like paying a premium for a product that can't figure out the meaning of its own faction's ethos.
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Jul 8, 2015 02:56
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Mors Rattus posted:I also don't know where you're reading that the lawyer cares more about victory than guilt or innocence? To address this: winning is what Arrows exist to do -- victory in conflict through mastery. If we're taking an Arrow and plopping him in a courtroom and claiming that the courtroom is his battlefield -- instead of it being an incidental space for him to occupy that informs his real battles out on the street, for example, like some kind of mage Daredevil -- then LITIGATION IS WAR and the Arrow is a warrior-lawyer. His goal is victory in the context of his battlefield. That's fine, presuming he chooses his own cases. Prosecutors don't choose their own cases. So either he has to find reasons to put people he thinks are innocent behind bars, or he has to act contrary to his code as an Arrow and intentionally throw a fight in his arena. This is why he should be an independent criminal defense attorney (not a Public Defender, due to having the inverse of the problem that prosecutors do) or a civil court litigator, so that if a client is guilty or otherwise unworthy, he can choose not to take the field. Crion fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 03:04
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It's just sad how embarrassed the Arrow writeup is of being about an explicitly martial Order. Balancing checkbooks... is war! Making tweets... is war! It's not actually playing against type to describe an Arrow completely in terms of their literary career, in the same way that it's not actually playing against type to describe a Mystagogue in terms of their fencing style - it's just failing to describe an Arrow straight up. If there actually were proudly non-martial Arrows, that'd point to the Arrow as a whole being a defunct concept - but it's not, because loving throwing down is actually an important thing for someone to be able to do in Mage.
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Jul 8, 2015 03:15
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The problem with the prosecutor Arrow isn't that all prosecutors are monsters. It is that all prosecutors are subject to the whims, rules, and dictates of Sleeper government, whereas the Arrow write-up explicitly states:quote:Never again would the Arrow bind itself to temporal ideals. For that matter, all Seers aren't monsters, either. An Awakened prosecutor who tries to do right by everyone who passes through his courtroom by throwing certain cases due to his personal beliefs while still serving the overarching structure of the Lie can be a good person -- but it is difficult to see him as an Arrow. Now, all war profiteers ARE monsters, but the problem with that guy is he's just about straight-up Praetorian.
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Jul 8, 2015 03:24
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What about Tony Star-- actually, I withdraw my objection.
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Jul 8, 2015 03:26
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Cabbit posted:What about Tony Star-- actually, I withdraw my objection. Iron Man is a grimoire that tells the story of a Praetorian Ministry Seer becoming an Adamantine Arrow -- from the perspective of a Libertine. Crion fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 03:26
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Maybe he'll prosecute one of the bankers responsible for the 2008 clustercrisis?
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Jul 8, 2015 03:27
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Ferrinus posted:It's just sad how embarrassed the Arrow writeup is of being about an explicitly martial Order. Balancing checkbooks... is war! Making tweets... is war! It's not actually playing against type to describe an Arrow completely in terms of their literary career, in the same way that it's not actually playing against type to describe a Mystagogue in terms of their fencing style - it's just failing to describe an Arrow straight up. If there actually were proudly non-martial Arrows, that'd point to the Arrow as a whole being a defunct concept - but it's not, because loving throwing down is actually an important thing for someone to be able to do in Mage. I think the writers are trying to present this idea! The order explicitly goes through a post-WW2 funk and distances itself from Fallen conflicts, reducing their concerns to Awakened politics and- apparently- amoral profit motives and the application of state control over its citizens.
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Jul 8, 2015 03:36
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I suppose the ready response to concerns about our prosecutor Arrow having to deal with innocent people being chewed up by the system is to say he uses Fate magic to neatly bypass that concern and only get assigned cases where guilt is assured, while, I don't know, assigning the cases of people he knows are innocent to incompetents in the department? To which I theoretically respond: okay, fair enough; let's see that in the text, which right now deals exclusively with the supernal glory of putting people in jail. I also seem to recall the 1E Arrow not being down with constantly using magic for mundane Sleeper-related things like that, but perhaps the 2E Arrow is different on that account. Crion fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 03:48
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It can be true that all temporal law furthers the goals of the Exarchs and the Seers while still allowing for the Arrow lawyer. It's actually an amazing personal conflict written directly into the character sheet. The writeup reads:quote:Mages join the Arrow when they want to define themselves by supporting others, learn self-discipline and control over their magic, come from a martial or regimented background and want to keep that ethos, or believe magic should be wielded with honor and responsibility. The bolded phrases are particularly relevant to the Arrow Esquire. He's an ADA so that he can face vital, real life challenges as a daily matter of course, but at the same time, some die-hard Arrow elders frown on his participation in a temporal institution. Is his Arrow Status at risk because of the attention he pays to being a good lawyer? What if he finds out that the very insitution of law is supporting the Seers? How does he deal with the fact that he's been helping people while still supporting the Lie? These are interesting questions! It's the very point of the setting for characters to interact with the setting, learn about it, and let it impact their decisions. The idea that every PC has to act as if they have the very metaphysical nature of the universe solved makes the actual game pointless. What mysteries can they uncover? What conflicts can they possibly have if they can recognize the Seers effortlessly as a matter of character creation? Crion posted:The problem with the prosecutor Arrow isn't that all prosecutors are monsters. It is that all prosecutors are subject to the whims, rules, and dictates of Sleeper government, whereas the Arrow write-up explicitly states: There's a confusion here about the distinction between the organization The Adamantine Arrow, and an individual Adamantine Arrow. Sure, the organization would never attach itself to temporal values, but an individual Arrow might still like being a lawyer, or heck, even still enjoy watching movies or using language. Both of those are temporal ideals! If you watch The Matrix, you'll notice that Neo doesn't reject his entire existence as soon as he takes the red pill. The point of the movie is that it takes work and sacrifice to learn enough about the entirety of the illusion to completely break free. An individual Adamantine Arrow just starting out probably hasn't realized the extent of the Lie ("just how far the rabbit hole goes", so to speak), and so he might still see the Law as a worthwhile ideal, especially if he's dreamed of being a heroic lawyer his whole life. It's going to take some experience to learn that the law is not the best way to break free from the Lie, and to start doing more beneficial wizard things. Or maybe he'll decide that wizard things aren't so beneficial and decide to the join the Free Council, who are totally into the value of Law as a pure platonic ideal. Who knows? It's character development. The point is, it takes time to become the kind of Arrow who buys into the party line and supports the organization's general philosophy. The sample character probably isn't a very high ranking or established member of the Adamantine Arrow, but it's a very good starting place for one.
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Jul 8, 2015 04:10
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My two bits: while there's a snarl in the presentation that could be improved with a change (make him a defense/tort lawyer, etc as said, or bring up the possible divide in-text like pospysl suggests), I don't think it needs to be ripped into like it's a new slab of Beast to shred into bloody confetti. Like for real, guys, the American legal system's a clusterfuck but y'dont need to jump straight to "is prosecutor = is gleeful, Seer-loving racist/racist-in-denial."
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Jul 8, 2015 04:18
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pospysyl posted:There's a confusion here about the distinction between the organization The Adamantine Arrow, and an individual Adamantine Arrow. Sure, the organization would never attach itself to temporal values, but an individual Arrow might still like being a lawyer, or heck, even still enjoy watching movies or using language. Both of those are temporal ideals! If you watch The Matrix, you'll notice that Neo doesn't reject his entire existence as soon as he takes the red pill. The point of the movie is that it takes work and sacrifice to learn enough about the entirety of the illusion to completely break free. An individual Adamantine Arrow just starting out probably hasn't realized the extent of the Lie ("just how far the rabbit hole goes", so to speak), and so he might still see the Law as a worthwhile ideal, especially if he's dreamed of being a heroic lawyer his whole life. It's going to take some experience to learn that the law is not the best way to break free from the Lie, and to start doing more beneficial wizard things. Or maybe he'll decide that wizard things aren't so beneficial and decide to the join the Free Council, who are totally into the value of Law as a pure platonic ideal. Who knows? It's character development. The point is, it takes time to become the kind of Arrow who buys into the party line and supports the organization's general philosophy. The sample character probably isn't a very high ranking or established member of the Adamantine Arrow, but it's a very good starting place for one. This is all correct. But I've bolded the important part, because the guy we're talking about isn't Mors Rattus's PC that he's bringing to the table because he wants to play a DA who is out to change the culture of the etc, etc. That PC is fine, if his theoretical ST is down with a less martial version of the Arrow! The guy we're talking about is a sample character for the Adamantine Arrow writeup of Mage 2E, a character which no one is actually playing, and I don't think it too much to ask that between him and his war profiteer buddy at least one of them be an individual Adamantine Arrow that DOES embody the organization of the Adamantine Arrow. Faction sample characters in every book I've ever bought aren't there to be ready-made PCs for me to guide through character growth. They're there to be specific, tangible exemplars of the broader concepts laid out in the faction text. That's a good thing, because I have no interest in actually playing sample characters. What I am getting from these two sample characters are that Arrows are self-concerned individualists who place the mere incident of their own success in whatever Sleeper field interests them ahead of both their duties to the Pentacle and any sort of higher moral compass. I'm not sure that's what I'm supposed to be taking away, here. Crion fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 04:35
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He just isn't an Arrow. He doesn't do anything that Arrows do and therefore doesn't exemplify anything about the Order. Taking your job seriously and preferring to win rather than lose just doesn't set you apart in an interesting or useful way. He's hardly even an interesting fixer-upper, since he fails to live up to his splat's ideals in pretty much every way except for the fact of being Awakened at all.
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Jul 8, 2015 04:35
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I should note that outside of those two bozos the preview is pretty much great, and if the rest of the game's problems lie solely in stuff like "the sample characters don't really work," it'll be a great edition, and almost certainly the best of all the 2Es.
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Jul 8, 2015 05:34
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I'm not sure I agree. The writeup acknowledges that the Vidanti exist but doesn't really go on to explain why someone who forswears violence is exiled while someone who forswears chess is not. In repeating over and over that the Arrow isn't only about fighting it kind of forgets to talk about fighting, like, at all. Learning to shoot lightning just in case is very different from volunteering to be the guy who gets shot at by lightning all the time.
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Jul 8, 2015 06:08
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Personally speaking: as a solo attorney whose career is dedicated to unmaking The Lie and who is also actually really a wizard irl I'm definitely in the Silver Ladder not the drat Adamantine Arrow. And as for working for the state's attorney's office rofl don't even get me started. maybe if he was at some sort of attorney working for a federal regulatory commission or the Department of Justice civil rights division - but even then rofl you better start smooching those temporal ideals that people who work for the government have to pay lip service to - ideals like due process and equal protection. Make no mistake: both professionally and personally its a letdown.
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Jul 8, 2015 06:58
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The real reason it's totally absurd that a lawyer would ever be in the Adamantine Arrow is that, as a lawyer, no matter what you do: you're not the one who's going to jail, you're not the one who's going to face the penalty. At the end of the day, no matter what your clients did and what the court decides (or, of course, more realistically: what you and the other side settle) you just go home. The thing that makes a state's attorney AA even more absurd is that of course the huge majority of cases don't go to trial, there's no dramatic courtroom anything happening, it's just the State using the threat of concentrated institutional power to get someone to accept their fate and take a plea. It really is a Seer way of doing things!
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Jul 8, 2015 07:10
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pospysyl posted:
These are all great questions. I'm going to run my first Mage game once 2e comes out (gonna run a Mortals game to introduce the group to WoD/meet them in the interim--I'm thinking a Mortals game where they encounter an Abyssal intrusion might be a good Mage intro). The plan is (since we're an LGBT group of Seattlites in Capitol Hill) to deal with God-Machine intrusions in to Captiol Hill as a starting point--is it an Exarch plot? Is it a separate phenomenon that the Seers are exploiting? Or do they just think they do, and this is beyond any of us? Can this be fought, or is it just to be lived with? But I don't want to decide on concrete answers yet (only thing I know for sure is that they'll be exploring the other timelines from the Seattle Demon book), let the characters and their themes/play dictate what happens.
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Jul 8, 2015 07:56
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Ferrinus posted:I'm not sure I agree. The writeup acknowledges that the Vidanti exist but doesn't really go on to explain why someone who forswears violence is exiled while someone who forswears chess is not. In repeating over and over that the Arrow isn't only about fighting it kind of forgets to talk about fighting, like, at all. Learning to shoot lightning just in case is very different from volunteering to be the guy who gets shot at by lightning all the time. The Arrow treats struggle as a broad metaphysical concept, but the order represents the remnant of the supposed Atlantean profession of arms. So you can tease occult insights out of chess, debate or whatever, but theoretically your job is to shoot a designated enemy in the face. Can't do that? Can't be an Arrow.
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Jul 8, 2015 08:11
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Crion posted:This (domestic violence specializing prosecutors), uh, doesn't exist. Uh, what? Like there's no State Bar certification or anything, but prosecutors that handle DV cases exclusively and for many years definitely do exist in my city and in Phoenix (smaller towns/counties just absorb those charges into misdemeanor and violent crime units depending on the severity of the case.)
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Jul 8, 2015 08:33
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I really should have expected that 60+ replies could only mean Magechat.
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Jul 8, 2015 08:35
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Virtually any institution with a clear hierarchy and an interest in controlling Sleepers could easily be a Seer-controlled institution. I should think most schools (or at least universities) hold an interest for the Seers; I should think the entire business of higher education is probably quite important to the Exarchs, really, since it represents liberation from ignorance and yet manages to indoctrinate millions of people in specific ways of thinking. I don't see anybody clambering to remove college professors (or students) as valid character archetypes though.
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Jul 8, 2015 09:05
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MalcolmSheppard posted:The Arrow treats struggle as a broad metaphysical concept, but the order represents the remnant of the supposed Atlantean profession of arms. So you can tease occult insights out of chess, debate or whatever, but theoretically your job is to shoot a designated enemy in the face. Can't do that? Can't be an Arrow. That's what I'd say the writeup is missing. It's got loads on Arrow aesthetics, magical praxis, philosophy, posture, etc, but more or less only offers oblique hints as to the Order's practices, responsibilities, and default social role. Mystagogues don't just believe magic is alive - they also collect and safeguard magical knowledge. Guardians don't just believe that an incorruptible magus will one day arise to redeem the currently-tarnished Awakened - they keep magic secret and punish offending mages. Whose asses does that lawyer kick, in the literal sense? If no one's, why not? The figurative battle is in the courtroom - and figurative battles are certainly good sources of mental training, vectors for honing magical technique, whatever - but the actual battle is actually a battle.
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Jul 8, 2015 09:19
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The other thing I want to address is gunrunning and other morally dubious things. You'll note that the description never notes any particular duty to help Sleepers, or even be nice to them. There are decent Arrows and lots of debate as to what exactly is "of the Lie" in terms of Sleeper institutions, but the heart of the Arrow is that you're supposed to be ready for everything in the conflict of life, you're supposed to keep your promises and you're supposed to define and adhere to personal virtues. None of these are really compassionate values. In the AA book, "I'm going to kill your entire family" is listed as a valid oath. These are not necessarily nice people. They can be, and they can *serve* nice people (and moderate the orders given them by bad people) but these things aren't required to be a member in good standing. The Vidanti are bad because they're pacifists. The Free Companies are bad because they don't submit to Awakened authority. (The latter have a large number of assholes in them, no doubt, but some of them are probably groups who walked away from oathbound service to a bastard--and they're still bad by AA standards.)
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Jul 8, 2015 10:24
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My view of the AA is that in a world where engaging in combat with other mages can potentially be horrendously bad for your long-term health, they are the ones not shying away from such conflict. They thrive on it. Each conflict, whether it be combat or upholding an oath despite terrible setbacks is what hones their magical abilities. 1/5th of pentacle society who is ready to throw down the gauntlet and go after your rear end with the fury of Michael the Archangel is a serious contender. When presented with a problem, the AA often chooses the most direct solution. They aren't liable to spend months of intrigue and backstabbing when they could be drawing up battleplans, doing strategical analysises, and operational rehearsing. That isn't to say they are brutish or simple. They know how everyone fights, and that everyone has a weakness that can be exploited ruthlessly, be they Seer, Pentacle or Sleeper.
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Jul 8, 2015 11:00
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paradoxGentleman posted:I really should have expected that 60+ replies could only mean Magechat. As someone who recently sat and read through this entire thread it really is impressive how Mage makes everyone turn into a raving lunatic I played a mage game once I was a Free Council local rock star I negotiated information from a talking bed
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Jul 8, 2015 11:20
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JDCorley posted:Uh, what? Like there's no State Bar certification or anything, but prosecutors that handle DV cases exclusively and for many years definitely do exist in my city and in Phoenix (smaller towns/counties just absorb those charges into misdemeanor and violent crime units depending on the severity of the case.) Link? I wasn't able to find anything on the Arizona SA's website about this in either their Phoenix office or elsewhere in the state, and I've never heard of a permanent unit of prosecutors in a States Attorney's office who ONLY handle DV cases the way some prosecutors ONLY handle insurance fraud, for instance, because it's not a discrete discipline of criminal law and most DV cases never make it past the charging phase due to how this country handles DV (that is, poorly). The most I've ever heard of is some politically-minded SA throwing together a Taskforce that's basically a bunch of prosecutors who prioritize such-and-such cases but still take other work as necessary. I'd be happy to find out I'm wrong. This really wouldn't change any of the overall thrust of my or DOCTOR ZIMBARDO'S posts, though. EDIT: Now that I've had coffee, I've realized I'm looking in the wrong place. States Attorneys are federal prosecutors and don't handle DV at all. You're correct that the District Attorney for Maricopa County has a Family Crimes Bureau, so that point is rescinded. Though this compounds ZIMBARDO's point that this dude REALLY shouldn't be, specifically, a States Attorney. paradoxGentleman posted:I really should have expected that 60+ replies could only mean Magechat. As ever, the worst part of mage chat remains the people who post nothing but their vague desire that other people wouldn't post. Crion fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 14:27
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Oh, I do not mind in the slightest magechat, I can see that people feel strongly about it and this is the thread where they can discuss it, so it stands to reason that occasionally something like this happens. To give non-mage fans something to talk about: I recently re-read the Changeling sneak peeks and... i don't think they are bad, exactly, but I feel that an atmospheric game like CtL suffers when presented like this. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 14:49
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paradoxGentleman posted:Oh, I do not mind in the slightest magechat, I can see that people feel strongly about it and this is the thread where they can discuss it, so it stands to reason that occasionally something like this happens. I really don't know if it matters that much. Atmosphere is nice, in theory, but I've never played in a game that actually pulled it off well. I don't know if it can be done. Not with a bunch of chucklefucks sitting at a table in real life, at least. I understand the problems people have with the new CtL stuff, but I don't see it myself personally. Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 14:54
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MalcolmSheppard posted:The other thing I want to address is gunrunning and other morally dubious things. You'll note that the description never notes any particular duty to help Sleepers, or even be nice to them. There are decent Arrows and lots of debate as to what exactly is "of the Lie" in terms of Sleeper institutions, but the heart of the Arrow is that you're supposed to be ready for everything in the conflict of life, you're supposed to keep your promises and you're supposed to define and adhere to personal virtues. None of these are really compassionate values. In the AA book, "I'm going to kill your entire family" is listed as a valid oath. These are not necessarily nice people. They can be, and they can *serve* nice people (and moderate the orders given them by bad people) but these things aren't required to be a member in good standing. The Vidanti are bad because they're pacifists. The Free Companies are bad because they don't submit to Awakened authority. (The latter have a large number of assholes in them, no doubt, but some of them are probably groups who walked away from oathbound service to a bastard--and they're still bad by AA standards.) As with the lawyer, the gun-runner's problem isn't really that no true Arrow would ever do what he does but that what he does has nothing to do with his being an Arrow. What, he runs guns in a brave, honorable, and internally self-consistent way? Whoopee! It'd be like if one of the two examples in the Mysterium writeup was chiefly concerned with the fact that its subject was a serial killer, and didn't even bother to specify that said killer's victims were owners of rare books the killer wanted to steal, or whatever. If you've only got a half-paragraph to describe a mage, and you use that half-paragraph to discuss the ways in which that mage has come to peace with his lucrative war profiteering career, it might well be that you intended to describe an Arrow and hold in your head extra secret information which confirms that you're talking about an Arrow, but the actual impression you've created is of a Praetorian.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:23
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At least the gun-runner Praetorian requires you to know the previous edition's lore to find an incongruity. When I read "never again would the Arrow bind itself to temporal ideas" and especially "abandon the millenia-long practice of championing sleeper societies", and then get presented the platonic example Arrow as a State Attorney- the epitome of a champion of a society's laws- with zero justifications, I know that the writing team is lacking a sound internal vision of what they want to deliver. Gerund fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 16:38
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Speaking as someone with very limited Mage experience, the ultra-dogmatic "each group can only be played this way" arguments I'm seeing here make Mage sound like a really bad game if they're remotely true. I don't think they are, based on what little I do know of Mage, but this discussion really isn't doing the game any favors for outsiders looking in.
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Jul 8, 2015 17:35
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