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Roland Jones posted:Speaking as someone with very limited Mage experience, the ultra-dogmatic "each group can only be played this way" arguments I'm seeing here make Mage sound like a really bad game if they're remotely true. I don't think they are, based on what little I do know of Mage, but this discussion really isn't doing the game any favors for outsiders looking in. Interesting. Could you perhaps quote some of these arguments.
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Jul 8, 2015 17:45
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Roland Jones posted:Speaking as someone with very limited Mage experience, the ultra-dogmatic "each group can only be played this way" arguments I'm seeing here make Mage sound like a really bad game if they're remotely true. I don't think they are, based on what little I do know of Mage, but this discussion really isn't doing the game any favors for outsiders looking in.
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Jul 8, 2015 17:59
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I don't really support unilateral, dogmatic approaches to the Orders. The game is fundamentally about philosophy, and competing philosophies. Within each order are often competing interpretations of philosophies. Hell in the Arrow book you have members who think that Sleepers should be protected at all costs and then you have Arrows who believes Sleepers are fundamentally uninvolved with the struggle for conceptually dominance with the Seers and that therefore their casualties are inconsequential. That's a pretty big divide, and yet both groups can embody the Arrow concept. What I'm saying is that there are different kinds of Arrows. Looking at two examples and noting that they are different shouldn't really cause any serious dissonance.
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Jul 8, 2015 19:13
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I'm confused. When did "lawyer Arrow" stop being a concept everybody wanted except the writers and start being something nobody wanted except the writers?
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Jul 8, 2015 19:26
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Unironically not sure if you're up on the American legal system, but prosecutor≠lawyer. Prosecutors (in pretty much any country) e: Commas go outside the parentheses.  e2: There actually shouldn't be a comma there at all. :eng111: Tulul fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 19:36
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Rand Brittain posted:I'm confused. When did "lawyer Arrow" stop being a concept everybody wanted except the writers and start being something nobody wanted except the writers? It never happened, because for it to be like that the former would have had to actually occurred
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Jul 8, 2015 19:38
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I'd rather have 5 pages of Mage ideology chat than 5 pages of Mage mechanics chat any day.
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Jul 8, 2015 20:17
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Rand Brittain posted:I'm confused. When did "lawyer Arrow" stop being a concept everybody wanted except the writers and start being something nobody wanted except the writers? "Lawyer Arrow" was never a popular idea. It's something that came up in a previous magechat and got roundly mocked for not adhering to the "Arrows fight ALL THE TIME" doctrine.
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Jul 8, 2015 21:15
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Right, so the phrase "Never would the Adamantine Arrow tie itself to temporal ideals" is itself a paradox, because the Adamantine Arrow itself is a temporal institution. Atlantis is a myth, and 2e describes the Arrow as being founded in Alexandrian Greece. Wanting to fight things and challenge oneself are completely temporal ideals. This doesn't mean it's a bad writeup, because 1) the phrase is specifically referring to the utilitarian consequences of engaging in large-scale political wars and 2) it's alright for a political splat to not have an internally consistent philosophy and to have members that agree with only parts of that philosophy. The Lancea Sanctum, Circle of the Crone, and Ordo Dracul don't have internally consistent philosophies either, and that's largely what makes them interesting. The Adamantine Arrow isn't real, you guys. It's okay not to like it or their fictional members.Mendrian posted:I don't really support unilateral, dogmatic approaches to the Orders. The game is fundamentally about philosophy, and competing philosophies. Within each order are often competing interpretations of philosophies. Hell in the Arrow book you have members who think that Sleepers should be protected at all costs and then you have Arrows who believes Sleepers are fundamentally uninvolved with the struggle for conceptually dominance with the Seers and that therefore their casualties are inconsequential. That's a pretty big divide, and yet both groups can embody the Arrow concept. A platonic Arrow sample character, whatever that might look like, would serve the ST as a guide for creating NPCs more than players looking to play a PC. The ST does need support, but for the game to actually be playable, splats should be presented as more wide than narrow. Ferrinus posted:Interesting. Could you perhaps quote some of these arguments. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:The real reason it's totally absurd that a lawyer would ever be in the Adamantine Arrow is that, as a lawyer, no matter what you do: you're not the one who's going to jail, you're not the one who's going to face the penalty. At the end of the day, no matter what your clients did and what the court decides (or, of course, more realistically: what you and the other side settle) you just go home. tatankatonk posted:So then it would be pretty stupid for the adamantine arrow to be the good apple working for the evil tree that's actively enforcing Seer hegemony Imagine saying either of these quotes to someone playing Mage for the first time who brought a lawyer Arrow to the table. I don't think you guys are quite the turbonerds that would say these things verbatim irl, but just imagine explaining to someone that no, having a wizard lawyer interferes with my Marxist reading of this game of pretend in such a way that I cannot take your character seriously. That's a deeply unpleasant conversation to have. Ferrinus posted:He just isn't an Arrow. He doesn't do anything that Arrows do and therefore doesn't exemplify anything about the Order. Taking your job seriously and preferring to win rather than lose just doesn't set you apart in an interesting or useful way. He's hardly even an interesting fixer-upper, since he fails to live up to his splat's ideals in pretty much every way except for the fact of being Awakened at all. I think what you're getting at here is how Arrow Esquire is, specifically, an Arrow, rather than a Silver Ladder member or, as many have been saying, a Seer. What about that paragraph describes the Adamantine Arrow and its composite members? One way is that it illustrates that not all Arrows have to be on the street punching things. "Challenge" and "struggle" can be more widely interpreted. You've gone on to argue that widening these concepts dilutes what struggle and challenge actually are, which is totally fair. It's going to be really awkward when a guy who had his arm torn off by an Abyssal demon has to listen to how Arrow Esquire was yelled at by his boss in the Adamant Breakroom. However, I don't think people looking to make PCs should have to worry about sustaining the fidelity of the setting while playing the game. They shouldn't need to worry about breaking the setting with their sacrilegious concepts. While you might be very attached to the vision of Arrows as being dedicated to physical violence, which I'm sure is very worthwhile for your own games, I think the game would suffer for that being the only plausible reading. As I see it, the paragraph itself puts forward a couple of things that support and develop the image of the Adamantine Arrow as a playable splat. First, the idea of struggle. It's obviously a stressful job, and from what we know of the magical style mechanics, the stress of the job may actually empower the Arrow's magic. It speaks to the personality of the Arrow organization that its member specifically seeks out a servile role, rather than seeking a leadership position, that he rejects easier alternatives, and that he loves the challenge. Second, the destructive nature of it. While some people in this thread have been repulsed by the use of institutional force necessary for a prosecutor, that's exactly what makes the description feel vital. Part of the problem for the Adamantine Arrow, for me, was how the Arrow came by its opponents. This job allows the Arrow to find rotten people that need to be destroyed, and people are indeed destroyed in courts of law, at least in legal dramas, the genre this character is operating in. Arrow Esquire may not be doing physical damage, but he is doing real harm to his enemies. That's why I'm not just trying to defend this as passable, I genuinely feel that this is a good sample character. Pope Guilty posted:I'd rather have 5 pages of Mage ideology chat than 5 pages of Mage mechanics chat any day. Same, but reverse.
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Jul 8, 2015 21:25
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I just. I can't wrap my mind around that all of this is about a sample character.
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Jul 8, 2015 21:32
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pospysyl posted:Imagine saying either of these quotes to someone playing Mage for the first time who brought a lawyer Arrow to the table. I don't think you guys are quite the turbonerds that would say these things verbatim irl, but just imagine explaining to someone that no, having a wizard lawyer interferes with my Marxist reading of this game of pretend in such a way that I cannot take your character seriously. That's a deeply unpleasant conversation to have. Neither of those quotes reads as "an Arrow can only be played in this way", and the writer of the Arrow sample characters is not a first-time player with wide eyes and a trembling lower lip. quote:I think what you're getting at here is how Arrow Esquire is, specifically, an Arrow, rather than a Silver Ladder member or, as many have been saying, a Seer. What about that paragraph describes the Adamantine Arrow and its composite members? One way is that it illustrates that not all Arrows have to be on the street punching things. "Challenge" and "struggle" can be more widely interpreted. You've gone on to argue that widening these concepts dilutes what struggle and challenge actually are, which is totally fair. It's going to be really awkward when a guy who had his arm torn off by an Abyssal demon has to listen to how Arrow Esquire was yelled at by his boss in the Adamant Breakroom. However, I don't think people looking to make PCs should have to worry about sustaining the fidelity of the setting while playing the game. They shouldn't need to worry about breaking the setting with their sacrilegious concepts. While you might be very attached to the vision of Arrows as being dedicated to physical violence, which I'm sure is very worthwhile for your own games, I think the game would suffer for that being the only plausible reading. But as Zimbardo says, a lawyer has no skin in the game. They're not at existential risk. It's not Arrows that have you foreclosed on if you cause trouble, it's the Invictus. That's why an Adamantine Arrow that's about struggle in all its forms is weaker than an Adamantine Arrow that studies struggles in all its forms in service of the pursuit of a concrete material objective. The former is an aesthetic, but it's not actually a social and political force. In the former case "Arrow" might as well decide a philosophy and life approach occasionally held by members of the other, real, Orders.
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Jul 8, 2015 21:53
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The Adamantine Arrow literally, non-metaphorically, fights the enemies of the Diamond Orders. What my reading presupposes is...maybe they don't?
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Jul 8, 2015 22:05
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pospysyl posted:A platonic Arrow sample character, whatever that might look like, would serve the ST as a guide for creating NPCs more than players looking to play a PC. The ST does need support, but for the game to actually be playable, splats should be presented as more wide than narrow. Guess I'm not really surprised how quickly this conversation has moved from "neither of these sample characters actually represent specific, legible instances of the faction they purport to describe" into handwringing about that most sacred, insipid cow: the theoretical new player who must be simultaneously treated as an infant and a flight risk. Edit: And if we're going to go down this road, then it's just as reasonable to conclude our doe-eyed new player is going to see that neither of the sample characters is a physical combatant at all and assume the Arrow prefers indirect means of conflict resolution besides violence. I am also not sure why there SHOULDN'T be a platonic Arrow sample character "for the ST" included with the corebook, if being platonic exemplars of an Order is something we're restricting to NPCs. Crion fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 22:08
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My nontheoretical new player, who knew nothing about the hobby before she asked me about the setting, seemed pretty happy with things, so I guess I will continue to not worry that talking about the game this way will drive people away.
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Jul 8, 2015 22:14
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tatankatonk posted:The Adamantine Arrow literally, non-metaphorically, fights the enemies of the Diamond Orders. What my reading presupposes is...maybe they don't? They do, but while they want everyone to theoretically be able to pull a trigger/get their stab on they recognize that some folks will always be better at it than others. Some folks will be better at procuring arms, and some will be better at extracting favours from Sleeper organizations. Some folks will just be better pure occultists and metaphysicians, which has tangible benefits in Mage. Every Marine a rifleman, but the IT guy probably adheres to different values of "rifleman" than someone with dedicated infantry training. Ideally, every Arrow would be skilled at all aspects of warfare. The gunrunner satisfies the straightforward role of getting guns into Arrow hands. As for the prosecutor, he might be someone with a metaphysical focus, but he might just be handy for the same reason organized crime would find it handy to have a prosecutor in their pocket. Either of them could have had their jobs before Awakening, and have simply elected to keep them, though approach them with new perspectives and goals.
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Jul 8, 2015 22:33
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MalcolmSheppard posted:They do, but while they want everyone to theoretically be able to pull a trigger/get their stab on they recognize that some folks will always be better at it than others. Some folks will be better at procuring arms, and some will be better at extracting favours from Sleeper organizations. Some folks will just be better pure occultists and metaphysicians, which has tangible benefits in Mage. Every Marine a rifleman, but the IT guy probably adheres to different values of "rifleman" than someone with dedicated infantry training. Ideally, every Arrow would be skilled at all aspects of warfare. The gunrunner satisfies the straightforward role of getting guns into Arrow hands. As for the prosecutor, he might be someone with a metaphysical focus, but he might just be handy for the same reason organized crime would find it handy to have a prosecutor in their pocket. Either of them could have had their jobs before Awakening, and have simply elected to keep them, though approach them with new perspectives and goals. The thing is that while this is evident to me, who's been following Awakening since its release, it is not actually evident in the preview. It's all praxis, no practice. Like, there's a couple ways the Arrow lawyer could work. Maybe he's a Status 0 neophyte who's signed up for basic training and protection but isn't really pulling down enough support from his Order that anyone actually expects him to join any kind of anti-Seer gank squad. Maybe he's a middling combatant and is dedicated to manipulating the legal system for his allies' benefit. Maybe he's a metaphysician whose studies into the battle of wits that goes on in courtrooms is yielding big dividends in terms of magical theory. The only thing shown connecting him to his Order is attitude and pluck. It'd be like if Khonsu showed up in the Mysterium preview and we saw how he's got a hard-bitten demeanor and doesn't shy away from violence and so on but never actually learned what the hell it is he does when he's on the job.
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Jul 8, 2015 22:47
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Crion posted:Guess I'm not really surprised how quickly this conversation has moved from "neither of these sample characters actually represent specific, legible instances of the faction they purport to describe" into handwringing about that most sacred, insipid cow: the theoretical new player who must be simultaneously treated as an infant and a flight risk. All I'm saying is that the setting should exist to serve the players. The players shouldn't be playing the game to support the setting. Perhaps that's a stronger statement than I intended! I don't consider myself a new player, but I would enjoy Mage a lot less if I had to worry about insulting the integrity of the setting with an unusual character concept. Generally speaking, I don't take the setting particularly seriously as a fictional enterprise. When I play Mage I don't consider myself to be participating in a greater story that has significance I put at risk if I don't treat it with complete fidelity. I can't imagine playing like that. As an experienced player, I'm glad to see the book present a splat that is easy to grasp and design characters for. It might not be as meaningful to you, but I consider it more functional as an inspirational document. It's good for new players too, but I honestly don't know how many new players this game is going to attract. It's not a primary concern for me as a consumer. quote:Edit: And if we're going to go down this road, then it's just as reasonable to conclude our doe-eyed new player is going to see that neither of the sample characters is a physical combatant at all and assume the Arrow prefers indirect means of conflict resolution besides violence. I am also not sure why there SHOULDN'T be a platonic Arrow sample character "for the ST" included with the corebook, if being platonic exemplars of an Order is something we're restricting to NPCs. I agree with this. Like I said, there should be resources for the STs. But the whole entry is about the platonic ideals of the Adamantine Arrow. The information you would need to make the platonic Arrow is already there. I think the role of sample characters should be to demonstrate some flexibility of the splat beyond the description and in doing so stretch the definition of the splat in interesting ways. There is stuff in the writeup that suggests that, yes, the Adamantine Arrow as an organization does sometimes prefer indirect means of conflict resolution. The fact that they stopped participating in wars points to that, as well as the line, "The Order as a whole regards true pacifists with disgust, but they’re not bellicose — peace can be a far greater challenge to achieve than petty bloodshed." I never read the original Adamantine Arrow splatbook, so maybe this is a 2e innovation, but if someone came away with the impression that sometimes the Arrow solves problems without murder or violence, they wouldn't necessarily be wrong. They would certainly be correct in observing that some Arrow members are not entirely concerned with physical violence. Ferrinus posted:Neither of those quotes reads as "an Arrow can only be played in this way", and the writer of the Arrow sample characters is not a first-time player with wide eyes and a trembling lower lip. I guess they did present the option of being "stupid", but that's not exactly an attractive choice. Again, that confrontation isn't just a problem between an experienced player and a novice. If someone threw a fit over my Arrow lawyer character I'd be offended too. quote:But as Zimbardo says, a lawyer has no skin in the game. They're not at existential risk. It's not Arrows that have you foreclosed on if you cause trouble, it's the Invictus. Yeah, I agree, but you also see how a lawyer Arrow could have political and social force in the larger organization, whether it's taking care of jobs for them or being at odds with the people who trained him (I quoted you below). If there was a sentence added to the blurb that said that the Arrow lawyer provided legal cover for other mages or described some other role in the larger Arrow organization, I probably wouldn't complain, but I've already explained how, at least psychologically, the sample character is recognizable as an Arrow. You probably could make a prosecutor character for any of the Orders and have it make sense, because prosecutors have diverse goals for and philosophies towards their jobs. Ferrinus posted:The thing is that while this is evident to me, who's been following Awakening since its release, it is not actually evident in the preview. It's all praxis, no practice. That stuff would probably be in the mechanics. The Onyx Path post included a sample Merit that exclusively allowed Adamantine Arrows to use their combat skills for Yantra rolls. It's up to our theoretical PC to take it, but there's probably going to be a lot of material in the book that supports martial Arrows. The Oath Merits in the corebook should provide some idea of what "dynamic action" the Arrows get up to and how they come by their "charges". The Mystery section might also allude to the practice part when we learn what a capital-M Mystery is. There are a lot of references to other parts of the book here and my hope is that they deliver. There is a lot of practice hinted at in the writeup that needs more space to be developed. The Adaptability is Strength tenet of the Adamant Way prescribes that Arrows should strive for a "balanced and perfected self," but how do they do that? What training is required to balance and perfect the self? What specific ascetic practices are necessary to complete the Service is Mastery tenet? If I had my druthers, I'd excise parts of the Hubris section to make room for more specifics.
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Jul 9, 2015 00:05
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I personally will never be satisfied until Goku is an example Obrimos Adamantine Arrow mage, complete with ChiChi and Gohan getting annoyed that all he wants to do is train and fight.
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Jul 9, 2015 00:56
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What would the Arcana requirements be for the Kaioken?
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Jul 9, 2015 00:58
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Luminous Obscurity posted:What would the Arcana requirements be for the Kaioken? Force 2/Matter 2/Screaming 2/Hair 4.
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Jul 9, 2015 01:01
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pkfan2004 posted:Force 2/Matter 2/Screaming 2/Hair 4. Nuhuh. It would be Life because you are interfering with a living pattern 
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Jul 9, 2015 01:22
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pospysyl posted:I guess they did present the option of being "stupid", but that's not exactly an attractive choice. Again, that confrontation isn't just a problem between an experienced player and a novice. If someone threw a fit over my Arrow lawyer character I'd be offended too. Maybe stop throwing a fit over it, then. It looks bad. quote:Yeah, I agree, but you also see how a lawyer Arrow could have political and social force in the larger organization, whether it's taking care of jobs for them or being at odds with the people who trained him (I quoted you below). If there was a sentence added to the blurb that said that the Arrow lawyer provided legal cover for other mages or described some other role in the larger Arrow organization, I probably wouldn't complain, but I've already explained how, at least psychologically, the sample character is recognizable as an Arrow. You probably could make a prosecutor character for any of the Orders and have it make sense, because prosecutors have diverse goals for and philosophies towards their jobs. "Psychologically recognizable as an Arrow" is nonsense, though. The Orders aren't psych profiles. They're organizations with specialties, goals, and methodologies. My love of beating challenging video games does not actually place me in the Ungula Draconis. quote:That stuff would probably be in the mechanics. The Onyx Path post included a sample Merit that exclusively allowed Adamantine Arrows to use their combat skills for Yantra rolls. It's up to our theoretical PC to take it, but there's probably going to be a lot of material in the book that supports martial Arrows. The Oath Merits in the corebook should provide some idea of what "dynamic action" the Arrows get up to and how they come by their "charges". The Mystery section might also allude to the practice part when we learn what a capital-M Mystery is. There are a lot of references to other parts of the book here and my hope is that they deliver. That stuff should be in the description of the character, not just in mechanics hypothetically available to players. What does he do? What makes him an Arrow? We just don't know. All we know is that he's kind of an rear end in a top hat.
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Jul 9, 2015 02:05
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I don't know if it's the specific writers, or the writing standard, or just the Beast drama creeping in, or what, but while I enjoy playing WoD games and their settings I am really disliking the writing of these previews. Something about the heading, and then the short sentences describing the group, and then the next small heading, put me off or just make my head say "no no bad" even though there's nothing wrong with the actual concepts. I didn't have this problem when I skimmed through Demon. Is anyone else feeling the same or is my immune system just rejecting going Full White Wolf?
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Jul 9, 2015 04:11
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Ferrinus posted:Maybe stop throwing a fit over it, then. It looks bad. The lack of self-awareness this statement shows is staggering. Immediately dismissing someone with legitimate concerns over your massive grognard screed over a sample character's allegiences and how they fit into your view of a fictional world putting off people from trying Mage (which by the way, mission accomplished, I never want to play that game again for fear of ending up with people who argue like this) actually looks bad. Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 09:52
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Casuals dont get emotionally invested in this game 
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Jul 9, 2015 10:05
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DJ Dizzy posted:Casuals dont get emotionally invested in this game If the WoD had WoW's fanbase this would be a very different thread.
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Jul 9, 2015 10:07
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Pope Guilty posted:If the WoD had WoW's fanbase this would be a very different thread. Would it, though?
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Jul 9, 2015 10:50
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Blockhouse posted:Would it, though? Well it would be a subforum, for starters...
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Jul 9, 2015 12:33
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Pope Guilty posted:If the WoD had WoW's fanbase this would be a very different thread. 
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Jul 9, 2015 14:14
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bewilderment posted:I don't know if it's the specific writers, or the writing standard, or just the Beast drama creeping in, or what, but while I enjoy playing WoD games and their settings I am really disliking the writing of these previews. Something about the heading, and then the short sentences describing the group, and then the next small heading, put me off or just make my head say "no no bad" even though there's nothing wrong with the actual concepts. If you read my original word files for Demon's splats, they would look almost exactly like these preview pages, within the variations for different gamelines. The size of text blocks looks off when in a word processor compared to when it's been laid out and respaced - one of the big hurdles for new writers is to learn how much text makes a page once a book's finished. Especially in splat pages, where they have to fit 2, 3, or 4 pages exactly with an artwork heading and an iconic character illo. Oftentimes, we have to shave the odd sentence off here and there for layout purposes.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:40
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Speaking of layout, what tool(s) do you guys use for that? The only ones I am familiar with is LaTeX and its family.
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Jul 9, 2015 17:10
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Blockhouse posted:The lack of self-awareness this statement shows is staggering. Come on man, don't let Ferrinus determine what games you play. Of all people. Ferrinus.
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Jul 9, 2015 18:32
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Mendrian posted:Come on man, don't let Ferrinus determine what games you play. Of all people. Ferrinus.
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Jul 9, 2015 18:44
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Blockhouse posted:The lack of self-awareness this statement shows is staggering. Good, gently caress off to Dungeon World or something. Mage'd certainly be lost on you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 9, 2015 19:26
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The fact that you are picking Dungeon World, a game that while not perfect is decently serviceable, as a negative example is not helping your case.
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Jul 9, 2015 19:28
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I'm a very deliberate poster.
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Jul 9, 2015 19:31
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Good to know that no-one need worry about misreading you as a tit. Edit: To try and actually contribute something to the thread: pospysyl posted:There is stuff in the writeup that suggests that, yes, the Adamantine Arrow as an organization does sometimes prefer indirect means of conflict resolution. The fact that they stopped participating in wars points to that, as well as the line, "The Order as a whole regards true pacifists with disgust, but they’re not bellicose — peace can be a far greater challenge to achieve than petty bloodshed." I never read the original Adamantine Arrow splatbook, so maybe this is a 2e innovation, but if someone came away with the impression that sometimes the Arrow solves problems without murder or violence, they wouldn't necessarily be wrong. They would certainly be correct in observing that some Arrow members are not entirely concerned with physical violence. I had a bit of a different reading, as I don't think it's the case that the Arrow stopped participating in wars; merely that they stopped taking up Sleeper causes in doing so. Arrows are supposed to be fighting for ideals they believe in, not who owns what piece of dirt. If an Arrow fights in a civil war, it's because there's some higher ideal they believe in at stake, or because they want to see it fought morally, not because they think X country or ethnic group is better than Y country or ethnic group. I'm also happy to see Lawyer Arrow, myself, simply because... Hey, why shouldn't that be there? Arrows should be warrior-sages, and a part of that is knowing the pen as much as the sword. The weight of law is as much a weapon as anything, and there is much to be learned of conflict in seeing it resolved. pkfan2004 posted:I personally will never be satisfied until Goku is an example Obrimos Adamantine Arrow mage, complete with ChiChi and Gohan getting annoyed that all he wants to do is train and fight. I have to use this now as an NPC. Though knowing me, it'll probably end up being DBZA's Goku, as that has effectively replaced all I ever knew of Dragonball at this point. Axelgear fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 19:49
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Honestly the whole discussion is moot because people who play Arrows are boring people; people in touch with supernal Wisdom could be playing a Théarch, or a Guardian, or a Seer, or a Banisher,
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Jul 9, 2015 19:51
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I don't have a problem with Arrows who are prosecutors incidentally, or who use their position to recruit hardened criminals or police or weapons. But I absolutely would reject the idea that such a person is serving the Order in any way by prosecuting people, or that their struggle in court is The Struggle. The reason that doesn't work becomes immediately clear if you imagine what would happen if someone beat the canny Arrow prosecutor in court. He's going to go off and murder whoever the un/lucky defendant was. "Ultima ratio regium" and all.
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Jul 9, 2015 19:51
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Ferrinus is fine, and concern trolling on behalf of imaginary Mage neophytes is incredibly tiresome. I hope this clears things up.
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Jul 9, 2015 19:55
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