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The Ferret King posted:I linked the relevant ICAO document in a post above, which cites the requirement to speak out numbers in serial for callsigns. "To Position and Hold" was commonly used in Canada as well, I thought "line up and wait" was the non-standard form given its informal-soundingness to a native speaker, but I guess it's probably more distinct and easy to understand for ESL speakers.
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Jun 22, 2015 21:10
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Hi, ATC thread. So I'm wondering what exactly gets taught in ATC school about VORs. I've been flying IFR for a couple of months now, and recently had some very bizarre experiences. I spent a few months flying non-GPS planes, and on an almost daily basis I'd get told to "fly direct [some fix]." The first few times it was amusing, but then I just figured they did it out of habit and I simply said "unable, slant alpha" and they'd quickly give me a vector instead and life moved on. But one day the controller came back with "um, that's an intersection of 2 VOR airways, don't you have a VOR receiver in the aircraft?" and I was at a loss for words. Another time, (a few days ago) the ABC VOR at KABC airport was inop. I was not receiving the signal on either receiver, but there was no NOTAM saying it was down. I reported that to the tower controller after landing, and he confirmed "so just to make sure, you're not receiving the ABC approach?" That was some weird phrasing, but I didn't make much of it and just repeated what I already said but a bit more verbosely. Then he asked another (airborne) aircraft to check it out, and I kept listening on my second radio because I was curious. I heard him say something like (I am not exaggerating here) : "can you verify that ABC VOR works, another pilot reported that it doesn't, and it has like a frequency or a signal or something like that, right? " --- Reading the flight numbers thing, my airline's General Operations Manual (which is vetted by the local FAA office) specifically lays out the correct phraseology as the "casual" way (ex. thirteen oh one instead of one the zero one) vessbot fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jun 22, 2015 |
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Jun 22, 2015 22:01
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The Ferret King posted:I linked the relevant ICAO document in a post above, which cites the requirement to speak out numbers in serial for callsigns. Yes you did, and somehow I missed it. Disregard
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Jun 22, 2015 22:47
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vessbot posted:Hi, ATC thread. So I'm wondering what exactly gets taught in ATC school about VORs. I've been flying IFR for a couple of months now, and recently had some very bizarre experiences. I spent a few months flying non-GPS planes, and on an almost daily basis I'd get told to "fly direct [some fix]." The first few times it was amusing, but then I just figured they did it out of habit and I simply said "unable, slant alpha" and they'd quickly give me a vector instead and life moved on. Some ATC facilities don't receive your equipment suffix information and it is not easily retrieved. They may not know you're without GPS until you tell them so. At areas where the equipment information IS provided (both facilities I've worked at) the controller just fails to notice it because it isn't all that common anymore in a lot of areas. quote:But one day the controller came back with "um, that's an intersection of 2 VOR airways, don't you have a VOR receiver in the aircraft?" and I was at a loss for words. They wanted you direct to that point? Sounds like they were mistaken then. It sucks to sound stupid on frequency. quote:Another time, (a few days ago) the ABC VOR at KABC airport was inop. I was not receiving the signal on either receiver, but there was no NOTAM saying it was down. I reported that to the tower controller after landing, and he confirmed "so just to make sure, you're not receiving the ABC approach?" That was some weird phrasing, but I didn't make much of it and just repeated what I already said but a bit more verbosely. Then he asked another (airborne) aircraft to check it out, and I kept listening on my second radio because I was curious. I heard him say something like (I am not exaggerating here) : "can you verify that ABC VOR works, another pilot reported that it doesn't, and it has like a frequency or a signal or something like that, right? " It sucks to sound stupid on frequency. When I went to the academy, the first 4 or 6 weeks of my classwork (I don't recall) was "Basics." It was like a Private Pilot Course-Lite. We absolutely went over VOR navigation. In fact, we even took tests on how to read an OBS and what the TO/FROM flag meant. Not all new hires are required to take that basics course. The CTI (Collegiate Training Initiative) hires got to skip it. I think military hires got to skip it too. So not everyone had that class. And not everyone who DID attend it tried all that hard or remembers the lessons from it. It was technically pass/fail based on written test performance, but NO ONE failed ever. PT6A posted:"To Position and Hold" was commonly used in Canada as well, I thought "line up and wait" was the non-standard form given its informal-soundingness to a native speaker, but I guess it's probably more distinct and easy to understand for ESL speakers. I think they were getting "hold position" out of non-native English speakers a lot. Or worse, the reverse of that. I've never been able to use Line Up And Wait outside of my academy simulator time. Both facilities I've worked at prohibit it entirely. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jun 22, 2015 |
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Jun 22, 2015 22:59
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Rockets that explode at high altitude make a LOT of radar targets.
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Jun 28, 2015 16:42
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So do large parachute jumper drops. Kinda cool.
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Jun 28, 2015 19:04
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The Ferret King posted:So do large parachute jumper drops. Kinda cool. We can see jumpers from our two local companies regularly, but rarely get solid, multi-sweep returns on them, even when they open high.
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Jun 28, 2015 19:17
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MrYenko posted:Rockets that explode at high altitude make a LOT of radar targets. One of the local TV weatherman posted a picture of their radar Edit: actually quite a few posted: https://twitter.com/search?q=radar%20rocket&src=typd
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Jun 29, 2015 10:22
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Quick question as I am just going back on short haul and curiosity gets me... Are the FAA trying to bring in Alphanumeric callsigns? I ask as most intraeuropean flights we no longer use our flight number but a Eurocontrol generated alphanumeric (3 or 4 characters at operator request). So for example I now end up with something like this on the flight plan (translation in brackets for the uninitiated): MT1234 (Thomas Cook 1234) ATC C/S TCX49PD (Kestrel Four Niner Papa Delta) Now as long as we can remember the callsign (post it notes are your friend) that seriously reduces confusion. hjp766 fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 18:12
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I'm unaware of any move toward that. Sometimes air carrier callsigns will get truncated with a letter added if two of the same flight number end up airborne at the same time (due to scheduling snafu). So if ASQ3924 (Acey Thirty Nine Twenty Four) is assigned to two flights that end up departing at similar times, only one can be in the system. So the second will get assigned ASQ924T (Acey Nine Twenty Four Tango) But that's all I can think of.
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Jun 29, 2015 19:15
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You guys know anyone that did time on Guam? Thinking about putting in for the bid that's out.
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Jul 3, 2015 00:54
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fknlo posted:You guys know anyone that did time on Guam? Thinking about putting in for the bid that's out. Take it. Lots of incentive pay that is tax free, easy EASY check out. I *think* incentive time off to come back state side at the FAA's expense? I'm not sure what pay level your facility is at, but I am pretty sure you won't take a pay cut after it is said and done with the incentive pay (I think). Also, you GTFO of the states. I can talk more to the couple I know that were there. After they told me what it was like all I could do was look at them all  and ask WHY the hell they came back to the states.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:24
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My facility used to have a guy that was originally at Guam. They sent us cookies when he transferred out to come here.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:31
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Tommy 2.0 posted:Lots of incentive pay that is tax free This is my biggest reason for wanting to go. A guy in my area applied under the last bid but turned it down because they were only wanting to pay actual moving expenses(give us a receipt) and that didn't fly with him. That wouldn't fly with me either, but I figure I should at least apply to see what they offer. I've heard it has been as high as $150k when you move out and another $150k at the end of your "tour" when you move back. That would absolutely get me there. Looking at their numbers from last year, their traffic count was 225,000 for the year 
fknlo fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jul 3, 2015 |
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Jul 3, 2015 01:49
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fknlo posted:This is my biggest reason for wanting to go. A guy in my area applied under the last bid but turned it down because they were only wanting to pay actual moving expenses(give us a receipt) and that didn't fly with him. That wouldn't fly with me either, but I figure I should at least apply to see what they offer. I've heard it has been as high as $150k when you move out and another $150k at the end of your "tour" when you move back. That would absolutely get me there. We do more than that in a slow month. I hear the fishing on/offshore of Guam is pretty epic, too.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:54
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This is probably another one of those Canadian/American cultural differences, but... Guam? Why in gently caress's name wouldn't you take that posting? Why is this a question?
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Jul 3, 2015 06:47
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Well it's kinda far away from home for most folks, for one.
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Jul 3, 2015 11:45
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PT6A posted:This is probably another one of those Canadian/American cultural differences, but... Guam? Why in gently caress's name wouldn't you take that posting? Why is this a question? Schools are terrible, it's expensive, it's far away from everyone you know, it's hot, there are snakes, etc... I'm single with no kids, I'm not all that close with my family, my friends all have other poo poo going on with kids/wives, etc... I'm really just interested in the possible incentive money in all honesty. I'd love to have my house paid off before I turn 40. The amount of incentive money is a pretty big deal as well since I don't have any intention of selling my house and will let my sister "rent" it from me at a price that she can afford while I'm gone.
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Jul 3, 2015 14:12
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fknlo posted:I'm single with no kids, I'm not all that close with my family, my friends all have other poo poo going on with kids/wives, etc... If you don't take the chance to do stuff like this now you are really going to regret it after you stupid up and make kids and a family. Sounds like you have ZERO reason not to, and hell, it already sounds like you already have things in place for your house to be a tax haven. GTFO of the states man.
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Jul 3, 2015 16:13
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Tommy 2.0 posted:If you don't take the chance to do stuff like this now you are really going to regret it after you stupid up and make kids and a family. The only reason I can come up with to not do it is if they don't offer adequate incentive money. Living there and still paying at least half of my mortgage on my house would hurt a bit.
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Jul 3, 2015 17:04
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fknlo posted:The only reason I can come up with to not do it is if they don't offer adequate incentive money. Living there and still paying at least half of my mortgage on my house would hurt a bit. Try to get up to date with taxes and rental homes. Even if you you only get half your mortgage back renting, keep in mind that it is a loss of income at the end of the year. So you get some of that back in taxes since you are paying less. Also, that home should become a big tax write off. Some accountants have their clients claim 10k of depreciation MINIMUM on rental homes a year. Not to mention every time they travel back to the area the home is in, is now being written off as a expense. I am FAR FAR from being a tax buff, check out the finance forum? Pick one of those guy's brain. Talk to a accountant? Rental homes are a big big tax write off. There should be a few controllers you can talk to who rent. And a few married controller to controller that have to do a lot of write offs. Pick their brains. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jul 3, 2015 |
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Jul 3, 2015 21:17
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A relative that I hold in high esteem did a tour in Guam. Loved it. Travel anywhere you want to go and have fun being richer than all the locals. They love americans because otherwise they have no economy. Go get a tan and buy some wood furniture and be rich.
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Jul 3, 2015 21:52
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Doing a bit more research, it looks like it's for sure "actual costs" and nothing more. I'm not selling the house I've been in for less than a year and losing money in the deal to go on a temporary bid where I'm not going to make any more money than I'm already making. Even with a renter covering part of my mortgage and any applicable tax breaks it costs enough to live there that I'd end up losing money, especially if I wanted to go other nearby places which is one of the main reasons I want to go. Trying to find out if "actual costs" only involves shipping your own stuff over or if it covers buying things there that would be really dumb to ship. Something tells me it's only the former. It would be awesome in theory, but there has to be some kind of incentive to go. You can use it to get to a different facility in your region when you return, but I'd rather go to a different region and I can do that now without going to Guam for 3 years. There really aren't any other places in the Central region I'd rather go than ZKC. I wonder why they have issue getting people to go and stay at these hard to staff facilities 
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Jul 4, 2015 04:46
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fknlo posted:Doing a bit more research, it looks like it's for sure "actual costs" and nothing more. I'm not selling the house I've been in for less than a year and losing money in the deal to go on a temporary bid where I'm not going to make any more money than I'm already making. Even with a renter covering part of my mortgage and any applicable tax breaks it costs enough to live there that I'd end up losing money, especially if I wanted to go other nearby places which is one of the main reasons I want to go. Trying to find out if "actual costs" only involves shipping your own stuff over or if it covers buying things there that would be really dumb to ship. Something tells me it's only the former. Lots of people just don't want to leave the states. I don't get it to be honest. If I didn't have familial obligations here I would be alllllll over that. Even if it was a monetary loss. Different folks different strokes. I loved in Okinawa for three years and I would be ecstatic to get to that side of the planet again. When I lived there it was about 50/50 for people loving it or hating it. I saw a lot of dependents divorcing so they could get back to the states. Then there were the people trying to stay their entire careers. Get a hold of different people at the facility. Ask the people that have been there a while WHY they stay. Then asks the ones that are hauling rear end first chance.
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Jul 4, 2015 05:00
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Tommy 2.0 posted:Lots of people just don't want to leave the states. I don't get it to be honest. If I didn't have familial obligations here I would be alllllll over that. Even if it was a monetary loss. I just don't want to deal with the monetary loss part. Within the next 3 years my house is for sure going to need to be painted, need a new air conditioner, possibly a new roof, etc... I'd be in rough shape trying to handle that while on the other side of the globe even with the money I've been setting aside for that kind of stuff. It would only make sense to sell my house if I knew for sure I wasn't coming back here. I'd love to know where the rumors of getting $300k to move out there and back come from. Then again, our staffing situation is hosed enough that it might be best to jump ship while I still can. I've been a little under the weather the past couple days and banged in tonight so they ended up running 4 under the numbers on a Friday night. It's just going to get so much worse. fknlo fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jul 4, 2015 |
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Jul 4, 2015 05:11
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fknlo posted:I just don't want to deal with the monetary loss part. Within the next 3 years my house is for sure going to need to be painted, need a new air conditioner, possibly a new roof, etc... I'd be in rough shape trying to handle that while on the other side of the globe even with the money I've been setting aside for that kind of stuff. It would only make sense to sell my house if I knew for sure I wasn't coming back here. I'd love to know where the rumors of getting $300k to move out there and back come from. Yeah man, sounds like a tough call. I wish your house wasn't in the way, because I think it would be a cool experience. Although your staffing situation...jumping ship while you can :P Now THAT is some good logic. Serious.
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Jul 4, 2015 16:33
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Aren't you guys making ~100k anyway? (don't get caught up on 6 figures) It's not hard to hire a property manager and get your house rented out for a year and not have it be destroyed. I did it am really glad I didn't let me real estate woes prevent me from moving 10+ hours away and pursue another career. My military friends always rent3ed out their houses to new military people coming in (officers). They haven't lived in their own house since 2005 but have had the mortgage paid every month!
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Jul 4, 2015 16:39
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Tommy 2.0 posted:Yeah man, sounds like a tough call. I wish your house wasn't in the way, because I think it would be a cool experience. Yeah, I still really want to do it. I'll probably still apply and think about it more until I get an offer. If that even happens. The jumping ship thing is such a dick move, but even the guys that trained me couldn't give me a good answer for why I should stick around here with the way things are going. I'd rather be somewhere else when someone puts a couple planes together because there weren't enough people to split out sectors or give them a D side. Captain Apollo posted:Aren't you guys making ~100k anyway? (don't get caught up on 6 figures) I considered this, but with the amount of money it's likely to need in the time I'd be gone it would be a little rough. Like I said, air conditioner for sure, water heater, possibly a roof, big old tree that looks like it's going to have to get taken down in the next few years, etc... Some kind of incentive pay would alleviate pretty much all of these worries. I don't understand why there isn't any for Guam, someone from my facility recently got $25k to go to Oakland. Maybe it was a supervisor job or something? If I could get return rights to the Western Region I might consider selling the house and then trying to get to Denver or Salt Lake City when I get back. Not sure if you can do that or if you only get return rights to the region you come from. That would get worked out in the interview process.
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Jul 4, 2015 17:45
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fknlo posted:Yeah, I still really want to do it. I'll probably still apply and think about it more until I get an offer. If that even happens. The jumping ship thing is such a dick move, but even the guys that trained me couldn't give me a good answer for why I should stick around here with the way things are going. I'd rather be somewhere else when someone puts a couple planes together because there weren't enough people to split out sectors or give them a D side. Man, give up on any loyalty within the administration. You are nothing but a number to anyone here. Even the guys to your left and right. You do you. Unfortunately that is the way it is with this agency, but that is how it goes. No one above your supervisors in your area gives a flying horse poo poo if you stay or go. If you have terminal illness or the world's greatest controller. They only give a poo poo if that jack has someone plugged in to it. You USE the administration just as much as it WILL use you. Don't loving hesitate for a second. ALso, apparently a Cessna 150 tried dog fighting a F-16 near Charleston. http://www.wyff4.com/news/fire-officials-f16-plane-goes-down-in-berkeley-county/34033818 I'm trying to get a hold of some people on the floor to see if they know what happened. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 17:55
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I'm guessing a conflict with the F16 using the instrument training route IR-18? Here are the coordinates from the location provided by the news story, displayed on an aviation chart: http://tinyurl.com/nzrtqkz  The red circle depicts a temporary flight restriction area which is due to the crash investigation. But the thin brown line right under the coordinate cursor point (just south east of the green text for Moncks Corner airport) is that training route. Not that the Cessna would have had any chance of seeing the F16 in time anyway, the closure rate was probably insane. If the F16 was established within that route, it wouldn't have been talking to ATC anymore. The route would be protected for other instrument traffic, but non participating visual traffic could still transit there without talking to ATC. That route is active between 5,000 and 7,000ft when occupied. If the Cessna was light it could have been up there (I fly a Cessna 150 in South Texas and on some days I can't get above 2,500). The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 21:07
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I'm being told that the cessna popped off a uncontrolled field talking to no one while the F-16 was being vectored on an approach. Poor CHS approach.
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Jul 8, 2015 19:20
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Tommy 2.0 posted:I'm being told that the cessna popped off a uncontrolled field talking to no one while the F-16 was being vectored on an approach. Poor CHS approach. This NBC article supports that: quote:nbcnews.com Bummer. Gotta keep an eye out for those non-participants. We had a near mid air recently down in the Rio Grande Valley that involved an aircraft without a transponder getting close to someone we were working. Our radar shows that stuff, some people do a better job than others of detecting it and making a traffic call. Sometimes it just develops too quickly and there's not a whole lot that can be done about it. As a matter of practice, I don't take my aircraft down to a low altitudes in the vicinity of uncontrolled airports. However, in some situations it is unavoidable. That airport the F16 was making the approach to has a lot of approaches where the arc or straight in segment would be very near the collision site. It's definitely a likely scenario. Just sucks that it wasn't caught in time. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 19:30
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Just a reminder it's perfectly okay to "pop" off an uncontrolled airport and not talk to anybody. Edit: I say that for those who are reading this thread with no aviation experience
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Jul 8, 2015 19:46
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Captain Apollo posted:Just a reminder it's perfectly okay to "pop" off an uncontrolled airport and not talk to anybody. And by "perfectly okay" he means legal per regulations. Seems like those with no radios or transponders are closely related to the "are states rights!!!!!" types.
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Jul 8, 2015 20:15
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1) Not all airplanes have electrical systems 2) radios are not mandated to be used under VFR operations (excluding required airspace) 3) if I take off out of an uncontrolled airport, I will be talking to that local traffic frequency. It's SOP to talk to that local traffic unless I need flight following. So just because an ATC said he wasn't talking to "anyone" doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't 1) legal 2) safe 3) talking to the local traffic pattern Please don't be dumb about radios and airplanes and states rights based off NBC nightly news reports Edit: The collision happened between 2,000 and 3,000 feet altitude, Col. Stephen Jost, the commander of the 20th Fighter Wing at Shaw, said at a news conference Tuesday. Captain Apollo fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 20:26
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Jealous Cow posted:And by "perfectly okay" he means legal per regulations. Spoken like someone who hasn't flown an aircraft with no electrical system. But do we even know he wasn't using a radio or transponder? Assuming he had a radio and was using it, he'd still mostly likely be talking on the CTAF frequency for his airport and not to ATC if he had just popped up; I know when I leave my uncontrolled field VFR I'm probably staying on CTAF and not looking to talk to ATC for flight following until I'm at least a few miles or few thousand feet of altitude out of the pattern. Whether the Cessna had a functional transponder that was turned on seems up in the air. I'd assume the altitude the F-16 was at was sufficient to get a transponder return from the Cessna if it was there, but if the Cessna was climbing into coverage there may not have been time for the return to reach ATC and for ATC to issue a warning. I'm assuming the F-16 doesn't have a TCAS system that'd trigger off a Cessna transponder, though the F-16 obviously does have its own radar (that should be decent at spotting primary returns I'd hope). edit long after the fact: CTAF - Common Traffic Advisory Frequency, a radio channel used at an uncontrolled airport for pilots to self-announce their position and intentions. "Berkeley County traffic, white Cessna on final for runway 6, full stop, Berkeley County" VFR - Visual Flight Rules, probably defined before but flying in clear weather where collision avoidance is primarily the pilot's job via "see and avoid" Flight Following - Flying under VFR but talking to ATC who will give traffic alerts on a workload-permitting basis. TCAS - Traffic Collision Avoidance System, a system that looks for transponders of other aircraft around the aircraft and warns of conflicts, often providing a direction to fly to avoid it. Usually found on airliners and large aircraft but not smaller general aviation aircraft. fordan fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 20:54
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Most of my opinion on flying without radios comes from a mix of reading ASRS Callback and a certain pilots forum full of idiots. Listening in on salt lake center and not hearing my flight number. Never mind, found this: http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?aid=2237 Jealous Cow fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 21:12
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Jealous Cow posted:Most of my opinion on flying without radios comes from a mix of reading ASRS Callback and a certain pilots forum full of idiots. That certainly narrows down which forum. And if the aircraft has a radio and transponder, I'd agree not using them is dumb absent some good reason like a malfunction or a dead alternator. But there are definitely aircraft out there that have no radio or transponder, like the awesomely fun Cub on floats I got my seaplane rating in. It had magnetos for the engine and a 9 volt intercom system for the CFI to tell me what I was doing wrong and that's it. Fuel level being indicated by a wire outside on the cowl that lowers as the float in the tank does.
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Jul 9, 2015 19:23
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What's wrong with magnetos? The C-172s 95% of student pilots fly in have them.
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Jul 9, 2015 19:36
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Pope Mobile posted:What's wrong with magnetos? The C-172s 95% of student pilots fly in have them. What do the other 5% use? Even the fuel-injected modern 172 I learned in used magnetos. I was pointing out what in the aircraft had electrical power. Apparently there was a radio and it was being used: quote:According to Bill Salisbury of the Berkeley County Rescue Squad, the Cessna aircraft left the Berkeley County airport just a few minutes before the crash. The plane was likely headed toward Myrtle Beach, and was in radio contact with the county airport during its flight, he said. http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/07/07/officials-f16-cessna-c150-small-plane-collide-in-midair/29816379/
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Jul 9, 2015 20:45
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