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Solkanar512 posted:Weird, it got really quiet when I pointed out that other industries are held responsible when they're unable to validate their own materials. I've been too busy to be following this thread today, but implementing that sort of accountability requirements for dash/body cams is the absolutely correct way to go as far as reforms for this issue. I'm curious if any of the lawyers in this thread think it's possible that the accused secured the video himself and him refusing to testify under the fifth is causing a chain of custody issue that prevents them from simply calling a technician. I'm just trying to spitball on what could cause the problem and besides the prosecutor being blindsided by the partner's Alberto Gonzales act it's the only scenario I can think of.
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Jul 10, 2015 05:11
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Dahn posted:Hmmm I read the article seems legit and not desperately trying paint someone in a bad light. How loving rageblind do you have to be to miss the fact that it proves the point made?
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Jul 10, 2015 10:31
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To change the topic a bit, looks like criminal justice reform MAY be getting some traction. Some of the cosponsors/coauthors are names you seldom hear together, like John Cornyn and Sheldon Whitehouse. Too early to tell obviously, and of course there is still some opposition to it, but this could at least be a step in the right direction on that front. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/congress-obama-criminal-justice-reform/398045/
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Jul 10, 2015 14:47
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Dahn posted:Do you have psychic abilities, or are you just imagining these deleted abuses. Cause cops=bad and therefore there must be something secret and hidden. This article provides multiple sources detailing how the Ferguson PD cleaned out officers' records. And it's known that Wilson had prior arrested a man for filming him and even outright told him that he doesn't have the right to record the incident (which he does).
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Jul 10, 2015 14:59
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chitoryu12 posted:This article provides multiple sources detailing how the Ferguson PD cleaned out officers' records. And it's known that Wilson had prior arrested a man for filming him and even outright told him that he doesn't have the right to record the incident (which he does). quote:The fact that Officer Wilson had no disciplinary record is different from the fact that he has no record of using excessive force. It could mean that he was not disciplined for use of force. Or that he never used excessive force. But the information that is coming out on him, in drips and drabs, makes me wonder. Some of his fellow cops do bad things, so we 'imagine' that he must have done some of those things too. This could be true.
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Jul 10, 2015 15:16
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Dahn posted:Some of his fellow cops do bad things, so we 'imagine' that he must have done some of those things too. Did you not look at the second link where he arrested a guy for filming him and literally denied that he had the right to record? Like we have video proof that he abused his position.
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Jul 10, 2015 15:27
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I dont think this has been posted yet.quote:A new video out of Philadelphia shows a young Black man being severely beaten and tased by Philadelphia officers in what can only remind you of Rodney King. there is also video of ths whole thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6tSl-Ff8Qs http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/philadelphia-police-investigate-video-man-beaten-cops-n389731
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Jul 10, 2015 20:56
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The person chosen to lead the grand jury that will probably oversee the Waco biker shootout cases just so happens to be a Waco police detective. According to the city his presence is a result of their completely random method of picking jurors. It's just coincidental that, in a city of 120,000 people, a cop was picked. The article specifically mentions him entering the grand jury chamber wearing his gun and badge, which I'm sure couldn't be considered intimidating to anybody else on the jury. As a layman, this seems like a rather massive conflict of interest. If it isn't blatant corruption, it's about how I imagine blatant corruption to look. Is this really an acceptable practice? Link Terraplane fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 21:09
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In California, LEOs are explictly banned from juries.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:18
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Terraplane posted:The person chosen to lead the grand jury that will probably oversee the Waco biker shootout cases just so happens to be a Waco police detective. According to the city his presence is a result of their completely random method of picking jurors. It's just coincidental that, in a city of 120,000 people, a cop was picked. The article specifically mentions him entering the grand jury chamber wearing his gun and badge, which I'm sure couldn't be considered intimidating to anybody else on the jury. It's the normal jury selection practice. There is nothing about it suggesting corruption.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:19
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This is the jury that will (again, probably) be investigating not only the bikers, but the police response as well. I guess I'm more than a little shocked that this is ok, it's setting up a huge conflict of interest.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:31
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Dapper_Swindler posted:I dont think this has been posted yet. The union president already talked about this one saying that the guy was clearly resisting. quote:I did view the video, and it shows that policing in Philly isn't pretty. He's fighting. He's waving his arms. He's biting the police officer at least twice. This is good policing. Their sole job in that moment was to police narcotics. You're allowed to use force at times,"¯ union president John McNesby told Newsweek in a phone interview. "Unfortunately, these guys were bit. You're allowed to use force to effect an arrest. They took narcotics off the street and took the man off the street. Good policing boys!
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Jul 10, 2015 21:37
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chitoryu12 posted:Did you not look at the second link where he arrested a guy for filming him and literally denied that he had the right to record? Like we have video proof that he abused his position. I had seen it before. His behavior is typical of cops in a low income neighborhood. Cops lie to people all day, they are not required to tell the truth, and they don't. I have lived in some poorer areas of town in the past (cause I was poor) and the cops were all Aholes. This Darren guy could be a complete Dbag. I don't know him, and I never will cause I don't hang out with cops. (they all catch that "everyone is a potential criminal" disease) There are a lot of people out there who searching for dirt on this guy. If he was such a total POS you think someone would have found something. Everyone need to justify their hatred of the man, and if he's just a typical cop that doesn't seem good enough. Sorry but all your e-rage has been directed at normal cop in a lovely urban police department. That doesn't make you a bad person, just an angry one.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:40
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Terraplane posted:This is the jury that will (again, probably) be investigating not only the bikers, but the police response as well. I guess I'm more than a little shocked that this is ok, it's setting up a huge conflict of interest. a. This is the grand jury, b. This is a randomly selected jury, c. The judge listed him as qualified, d. The system that this jury selection system replaced was laughably vulnerable to abuse.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:42
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nm posted:In California, LEOs are explictly banned from juries. They automatically dismiss the cops in Texas too. At least in every jury pool I have sat in here. This seems odd.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:44
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Discendo Vox posted:d. The system that this jury selection system replaced was laughably vulnerable to abuse. You say this is standard practice and I'll take your word for it, but I'd argue that a Waco cop leading a grand jury investigating other Waco cops indicates that we still have a system laughably vulnerable to abuse.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:52
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Discendo Vox posted:It's the normal jury selection practice. There is nothing about it suggesting corruption. The failure to dismiss for cause, on the other hand...
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Jul 10, 2015 21:52
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Terraplane posted:You say this is standard practice and I'll take your word for it, but I'd argue that a Waco cop leading a grand jury investigating other Waco cops indicates that we still have a system laughably vulnerable to abuse. If you randomly select someone who is biased, that's just like, the system man. Can't do anything about it. We can't change things, just have to roll with the punches.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:53
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Kalman posted:The failure to dismiss for cause, on the other hand... edit: Also I think this is the sort of grand jury that sits on multiple cases, so I'm unclear on how you would dismiss on a case by case basis. twodot fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 21:57
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If we're worried about conflict of interest or favoritism, all we have to do is wait for the results of the grand jury, if there's no indictment then we know there's no wrongdoing because that's what grand juries are for
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Jul 10, 2015 21:59
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"A grand jury, at some point, also will review Waco police officers’ actions in response to the melee that broke out between rival biker groups that day." On closer examination, no one knows whether or not this panel will hear either the cases against the gang members, or the cases reviewing police behavior. The only reason it's news is because Texas was the last state to drop the old jury selection method, and this is one of or the first panels to be created since that change. The detective works theft and has no identified ties to any of the defendants at issue. twodot posted:Honest question, do grand juries dismiss for cause? I was under the impression the defense didn't need to be present or even aware of grand juries. Grand juries dismiss for cause. You are correct about the multiple cases issue- Terraplane and others appear to be taking the position that people with ties to law enforcement can never serve on grand juries. Some states bar law enforcement from being on grand juries, although I believe that practice has diminished over time. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 22:04
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Discendo Vox posted:After rereading the article, there will be a separate jury to review the police actions:
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Jul 10, 2015 22:09
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It's been clearly stated by many in the thread that police officers understandably fail at their police duties when it concerns officers they know because they can't control their feelings. Can we really expect an officer to handle his jury duty without getting all worked up and irrational?
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Jul 10, 2015 22:10
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DARPA posted:It's been clearly stated by many in the thread that police officers understandably fail at their police duties when it concerns officers they know because they can't control their feelings. Can we really expect an officer to handle his jury duty without getting all worked up and irrational?
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Jul 10, 2015 22:12
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Dead Reckoning posted:Even if the detective has no apparent ties to the case, I think would be good practice to bar law enforcement from juries in order to avoid the appearance of impropriety or undue influence on the other jurors. There's a general movement against categorical bars to service on juries, especially grand juries- it's viewed as antirepublican and antidemocratic. A better focus would be on the rationale behind Head's selection as foreman- I think I'd need to know more about normal foreman selection practices and rationales in Texas to be able to evaluate that. The fact that this happened in Waco is not meaningful. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 22:18
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Discendo Vox posted:After rereading the article, there will be a separate jury to review the police actions: I don't see how this indicates that it will be a different grand jury from the one we've been talking about though. The article does mention that the detective can step out while others vote if he has a conflict. That's fine, except that relies on him actually doing it and it still means that any jurors who might vote to indict a Waco PD officer will have to deal with a Waco PD officer before and after their vote. Maybe I'm just a big baby of an outlier but I would be hugely uncomfortable in that situation. quote:Terraplane and others appear to be taking the position that people with ties to law enforcement can never serve on grand juries. Now that you mention it I think they probably shouldn't, but thus far my concern has really been that people with ties to law enforcement shouldn't serve on grand juries that will investigate members of law enforcement. I think that first part is simply a good idea, but the second part should be imperative.
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Jul 10, 2015 22:21
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DARPA posted:It's been clearly stated by many in the thread that police officers understandably fail at their police duties when it concerns officers they know because they can't control their feelings. Can we really expect an officer to handle his jury duty without getting all worked up and irrational? No, like normal human beings we would expect them to show biases in dealing with people they know personally and should be dismissed because of those biases. (Again, like normal people.) twodot posted:Honest question, do grand juries dismiss for cause? I was under the impression the defense didn't need to be present or even aware of grand juries. Yeah. Texas's rule is captured under Article 19 of their crim procedure rules. And you just dismiss them from hearing that case and seat an alternate; they come back for the next case.
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Jul 10, 2015 22:24
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Dahn posted:There are a lot of people out there who searching for dirt on this guy. If he was such a total POS you think someone would have found something. Everyone need to justify their hatred of the man, and if he's just a typical cop that doesn't seem good enough. Okay, it's literally been proven that Darren Wilson worked for a police department that hasn't been properly recording and archiving incidents of abuse and violence with its officers and you just threw up your hands and went "Welp, if we can't find it the proof must not exist!" I hope nobody ever lets you hit the backspace key.
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Jul 10, 2015 22:29
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chitoryu12 posted:Okay, it's literally been proven that Darren Wilson worked for a police department that hasn't been properly recording and archiving incidents of abuse and violence with its officers and you just threw up your hands and went "Welp, if we can't find it the proof must not exist!" Actually, that is sort of what I said. The difference between us is, you assume he is a bad cop cause he worked for a bad department. (they destroyed the evidence) This is not entirely crazy, but you are making some big assumptions. I think that there is a whole bunch of people out there that have been trying to find dirt on this guy for almost a year, and so far nothing. "Welp, if we can't find it the proof must not exist!" So I entertain the idea that maybe he is just a run of the mill cop. If they do discover that he was a cannibal rapist in another life, then I will be wrong (not the first time) I don't get the backspace reference. Is that an internet curse? Am I supposed to throw salt over my shoulder, or kill a chicken to ward off the evil mojo.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:11
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Discendo Vox posted:There's a general movement against categorical bars to service on juries, especially grand juries- it's viewed as antirepublican and antidemocratic. In this case though, they control everything leading up to the trial, so they have much more input than your average citizen. It's tricky because the more or less represent the state in matters of law enforcement, which makes it odd for them to be part of any case that involves the state.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:15
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Dirk the Average posted:In this case though, they control everything leading up to the trial, so they have much more input than your average citizen. It's tricky because the more or less represent the state in matters of law enforcement, which makes it odd for them to be part of any case that involves the state. That's...not even kind of how grand juries work, and law enforcement officers are not an undifferentiated mass of state representative entities. They're also individuals and citizens.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:19
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Dahn posted:Actually, that is sort of what I said. I assume he's a bad cop because he has proven, documented instances of abusive behavior (including, you know, killing an unarmed cigarillo thief) and is in a department that claimed that he was a sterling officer while simultaneously deleting or not keeping records of abuses. Like, it would be pretty dumb to assume that he's not a lovely cop after all of that. Just because denying people their rights and arresting them for spurious reasons isn't unusual in the United States doesn't mean he's no longer bad at being a police officer. The backspace reference was a joke about how you apparently think that if something was deleted, it probably never existed in the first place because now nobody can find it.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:19
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chitoryu12 posted:I assume he's a bad cop because he has proven, documented instances of abusive behavior (including, you know, killing an unarmed cigarillo thief) You didn't read DoJ's report on that, did you.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:30
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Kalman posted:You didn't read DoJ's report on that, did you. This is gonna be rich.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:38
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chitoryu12 posted:This is gonna be rich. Have you read it?
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Jul 10, 2015 23:44
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Kalman posted:Have you read it? You haven't even said what your argument or point is. I'm not getting in a debate with you until I get more than a one-liner.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:53
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chitoryu12 posted:You haven't even said what your argument or point is. I'm not getting in a debate with you until I get more than a one-liner. My point is that the DOJ investigation (which spent a lot more time on the topic than you did) contradicts your argument that what Wilson did was abusive, supported by numerous witnesses and forensic evidence. Also of note: quote:Witnesses Consistent with Prior Statements, Physical Evidence, and Other Witnesses Who Inculpate Wilson But I'm not summarizing a report which has a perfectly good summary built in. You should read it.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:12
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Adding to the idea that Obama might try to make CJ reform his final push in office, he's going to be visiting a prison for an HBO special soon. http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/obama-prison-visit-vice-hbo-1201537726/
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Jul 11, 2015 01:00
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Shooting Blanks posted:Adding to the idea that Obama might try to make CJ reform his final push in office, he's going to be visiting a prison for an HBO special soon. Secret Service guys must be drinking whiskey straight from the bottle right now.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:07
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Kalman posted:You didn't read DoJ's report on that, did you. I liked the bit where one of the witnesses interviewed by the Feds described Brown as having the stature of the Giant. (Paraphrasing)
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Jul 11, 2015 01:17
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