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I still like Agricola. Managed to get a non-2p game played last week and it's so different 3p than 2p that it's basically a different game. Extra action spaces, extra people competing, more to keep track of. I should really try Concordia again though, wasn't that excited the first time I played it but so many good recs... edit: As to Agricola vs Caverna, I did *not* like Caverna, but that's because I've yet to play a "all of the action spaces are available to build at the beginning, figure out your strategy, good luck!" game of his I like; it might just be a personal thing.
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Jul 13, 2015 16:08
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I'll just say that there's no cards in Caverna, so no.
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Jul 13, 2015 16:09
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I think Caverna is an even worse game than Agricola personally but not exactly for that reason. Caverna functions a bit more like a tile draft gated by worker placement, so there is a similarity in that I find having to go through the WP motions to get to the tiles a bit frustrating. My dislike for Caverna is more about how overloaded it feels with every space doing a whole bunch of stuff and the adventure/ruby mechanics just kind of letting you pick whatever. The whole thing just feels a bit mushy compared to Agricola. I'm probably not the one to ask though. I like Le Havre way more than either of them. I borrowed Ora and Labora off a friend tonight so hopefully I can get that played soon! Bubble-T fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jul 13, 2015 |
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Jul 13, 2015 16:10
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Le Havre is my favourite Uwe: it doesn't overload you with choice, it is easy to grasp, it has a bunch of different strategies and each game can be different depending on the buildings. I really like it and I want to play it more.
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Jul 13, 2015 16:18
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That's the one I haven't tried, and keep meaning to.
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Jul 13, 2015 16:20
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Poison Mushroom posted:I didn't think to bring it up here until just now, but I'm currently doing A Let's Play/group play of Last Frontier, for anyone who might be interested in watching a bunch of goons collectively get hosed up by aliens, or me gently caress up rules. Good luck! Out of curiosity did you end up feeling the same way about the rules as I did? I summed it up as clever but the flowchart the person on BGG made was what finally let me get a handle on things. I felt that giving the rules a once-over and then checking out the flowchart would have cut my rules learning time down by like 90 had I known about it up front.
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Jul 13, 2015 16:23
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I didn't like Tragedy Looper until I played it 2-player. It goes from a mastermind co-op "are we on the same page here? contest to a chess game between two opponents.
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Jul 13, 2015 16:43
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Deviant posted:I didn't like Tragedy Looper until I played it 2-player. It goes from a mastermind co-op "are we on the same page here? contest to a chess game between two opponents. It is amazing (one of my absolute favorite games period) with 2 or 4 players, and pretty lovely with 3.
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Jul 13, 2015 16:46
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I have more fun playing Caverna than Agricola right now but acknowledge Agricola as the more high-brow game, probably. I think this sums up a lot of my feelings: http://www.mechanics-and-meeples.com/2015/05/18/anatomy-of-a-revision-caverna/ I'm also more inclined to play it with newer folk than Agricola because the family mode in that game bores me to tears. If I was more in the state of mind of studying a particular game and had like-minded folk I would probably find more depth in Agricola. Right now, I feel like there are 3 kind of basic opening strategies in Caverna: early family growth, durf with a big rear end weapon, and 3+ fields 2 breeding pair early sow (and hopefully something like beer parlor). If people want some basic goals to start with it's pretty easy to introduce those concepts to them. Uwe games feel like exercises in mutual coveting and so having all the tiles on display for people to covet over makes sense to me, heh. Regarding the mushiness of Caverna, it still feels like I don't have enough actions to do everything I want, somehow. Basically, I think some of these resource coveting games can either have a model where: and action leads to 2 of a single resource or an action leads to 2 of one resource and 1 of another. Games with more of the latter type feel less tight to me, but still require you to actually make use of those secondary resources as they accumulate in your supply in order to win. They feel like you can branch into another strategy a little more easily, mid-game, but have less tension since it's harder to derail someone; games of the former type have more telegraphed and perceptible strategies, I think. I'm interested in what the Caverna expansion introduces. A little variance in setup could go a long way for me. But if it makes it much heavier or longer I'm not sure how I'll feel because I have other non-worker placement games that fill that niche. Oh yeah, one other thing re: expeditions in Caverna, it's got that thing that thing games like Roll or Dominion where have if people don't have that tourney M:tG style of vocalizing their actions in a declarative style then it can be obnoxious trying to follow their turn and make sure it all computes. Regarding Le Havre, I like this one a lot now, too. I gifted a bunch of people the app when it was 1 buck and have finally got it to the table. Amongst all three, it's definitely the more complicated system and so just getting a handle on how you actually convert actions into some sort of advantage is a bit more challenging. The Uwe principle of "get the pile of resources that accumulated somewhere" is still there, though. There is a lot of upkeep in this game when played in person and I think 3p might be best. We're still exploring this one. Regarding drafting in Terra Mystica, I wonder if you had a mix of more experienced and novice players if you could do a bit of a "one player makes the piles, the other chooses a pile first" thing. Have a more experienced player assign point values to the races and pick last. That's getting into house rule territory, but when we've played with completely new people we've generally suggested a pick amongst things like nomads, mermaids, etc while the vets play something more challenging, almost like what the book suggests starting with, so it's not totally out of the spirit of the rules. fozzy fosbourne fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jul 13, 2015 |
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Jul 13, 2015 16:56
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The best Uwe game is Glass Road imo, but I love action selection
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Jul 13, 2015 17:07
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I also really Glass Road, though I haven't played Caverna or Le Havre yet or At the Gates of Loyang. My wife hasn't been a fan of almost any of his games though, I think she doesn't like resource conversion that much and that's basically what Uwe does. Any opinions on Gates of Loyang? It's probably the one I'm most interested in as it sounds quite different from the others but you don't hear much about it.
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Jul 13, 2015 17:47
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Le Havre is pretty awesome, and a bit more forgiving about feeding workers than Agricola is with harvests. Caverna is my favorite, as it has the most variety and openly viable strategies at any player count. My main issue with Agricola is that the cards often dictate what you can do, and you have to spread out your strategy to not get a ton of penalties in scoring. Caverna rewards going whole-hog on any one thing as much as spreading out your efforts. You want to be a donkey farmer and fill your mines with jackasses? Go for it. Want to be a raiding party of Dwarves that loot and pillage their way to victory? That works too. Want to have your hands deep in a point salad like Agricola? That is viable too. Now, if you've played hundreds of games of both Caverna and Agricola, Agricola would be the more rewarding and fresh because the cards add more variance and replayability, but unless you're putting in hundreds of hours then I like Caverna more, because there are still thousands of possibilities to try out.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:02
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Ares Games has announced an Anniversary Edition of War of the Ring! This looks incredibly nice, but I don't think I have ~$400 to spend on it.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:18
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Glass Road was good, but not great, in my opinion. Gates of Loyang is nothing at all like the other ones, and while I like it, I almost don't consider it a Uwe game in terms of the same series. The games are super duper tight, though, I think every single game bar none of it I played (out of, say, 10ish) the winner and 2nd place were separated by exactly one point, and usually 3rd place was one point behind them. I've probably played several dozen games of Agricola, by the way, and the cards definitely make the replayability shine. Only the one game of Caverna though, and probably should give it a fair shot one or two more times. Didn't much like Ora et Labora either, though again, just the one play.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:19
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No longer a fan of LeHavre, but we've had that discussion  Caverna is my favorite Uwe Rosenberg, followed by Ora et Labora, which is finally getting a reprint.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:23
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Taran_Wanderer posted:Ares Games has announced an Anniversary Edition of War of the Ring! This looks incredibly nice, but I don't think I have ~$400 to spend on it. Man, the old edition already had a super opulent deluxe edition. It looks nice, but I definitely don't play the game often enough to justify owning this. But I can justify owning this: https://twitter.com/Zmangames_/status/618141663656046592
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Jul 13, 2015 18:24
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Bottom Liner posted:Now, if you've played hundreds of games of both Caverna and Agricola, Agricola would be the more rewarding and fresh because the cards add more variance and replayability, but unless you're putting in hundreds of hours then I like Caverna more, because there are still thousands of possibilities to try out. There might be thousands of possible strategies, but they are all fixed, which means that they are already well explored on the internet. You can improve at Caverna simply by reading strategies online. Agricola on the other hand always presents you with a unique puzzle. You might be able to gleam some general strategies online, but you will never find a guide for any particular hand of cards, it is always up to you to figure that out on your own. Its like the difference between Chess and Fischer Random Chess. In regular chess the pieces have fixed starting positions, so the openings of both sides are extremely well known. To be a good chess player you simply need to memorize the best opening sequences and all of their permutations. In Fischer random chess both sides have their pieces scrambled (identically), so memorizing a script for opening moves is impossible (and the opening becomes more interesting).
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Jul 13, 2015 18:27
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GrandpaPants posted:There were a lot of unclear rule interactions, although this could be attributed to my only doing a quick readthrough, and not of the reference rules. But I (Chaos) kept making GBS threads out units so my max strength was always 8, but all of my cards added dice, which didn't hit the max, so all my cards did was just kept adding icons. Also, there was one card that let me convert a Cultist into a Chaos Space Marine, but does that work on reinforcement Cultists too? Stuff like that that was either not references/FAQed too well, or else I just wanted it spelt out more explicitly. I'm a bit unclear about what you're saying with the "max strength was always 8". If you're rolling 8 dice that is the maximum. You can't add more dice and any card that says it adds more dice just doesn't do anything (beyond the icons on the cards). I do love Forbidden Stars and we've played about 8 games now. The first game we had a few rules problems - we didn't get rid of our tokens and didn't know there was a maximum of dice. Nor did we know there was a limit to the amount of Cache/Forge/Reinforcement tokens since this isn't in the "Learn to Play" rules. It's pretty mental that Learn to Play doesn't tell you what happens in the event of a draw as well! And lastly the warm storm movements on the cards aren't great at giving you a proper idea of how things move. Again we were doing it incorrectly in our first game because the sort of wiggly line wasn't clear enough to mean it changes it from vertical/horizontal or visa versa. It's a fantastic game though. It's replaced Twilight Imperium - which I'm now trying to sell - and Eclipse for me, for sure.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:27
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Rutibex posted:There might be thousands of possible strategies, but they are all fixed, which means that they are already well explored on the internet. You can improve at Caverna simply by reading strategies online. Agricola on the other hand always presents you with a unique puzzle. You might be able to gleam some general strategies online, but you will never find a guide for any particular hand of cards, it is always up to you to figure that out on your own. Bear in mind that "to be a good chess player" you also do need to know how to play well tactically. If what you mean is "to be able to thrash anyone who is very new to the game", yes, openings will do that. But then again, so will knowing how to fork. Besides, all the best openings and all of their permutations is more than any one person can memorize, for the most part, unless they devote their life to it. There's a lot of permutations, that go startlingly far into the game.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:32
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Taear posted:I'm a bit unclear about what you're saying with the "max strength was always 8". If you're rolling 8 dice that is the maximum. You can't add more dice and any card that says it adds more dice just doesn't do anything (beyond the icons on the cards). 8 dice is what I meant, which made a lot of the Chaos cards kinda unsatisfying to play since the 3rd tier cards all added dice that didn't get used, and the only way for me to lose dice was from a few of the Khorne cards. It was even more unsatisfying in that a lot of the cards needed me to have more morale dice than my opponent, which I couldn't trigger because I couldn't get any more despite having a lot of cards that gave me morale dice. Maybe my opponent should have had more cards that made me lose dice (he had a few, but again he lost momentum hard), so my combat was just playing the cards with the most icons that I wanted without being able to trigger most of the cool stuff, which didn't really make me feel rad. Theoretically I could have just gone in with a Helbrute and CSM and then used a card to shape what I wanted that last die to be, but I wanted a Cultist as a damage buffer and I didn't have that many reinforcement tokens since I rarely dominated my homeworld system during my rampage spree.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:41
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Tekopo posted:The reshuffles make it a single deck game that can actually be influenced and that's actually a really big part of the strategy. You can still win even if the coup rolls go against you and if they are the end and be all of your strategy, you will lose. Game has a solid strategic core, saying that it doesn't is really bizarre. This. The coups are the only thing in the game (besides Bear Trap / Quagmire) that can heavily dice-gently caress you—everything else depends heavily on the board state—and coups are meant to be hail mary passes. If you're playing well, you don't set up your influence to allow for crippling coups, and you don't set yourself up to where you need to coup something or else lose. And yes, it is a single deck game, but the way cardplay and scoring works basically means you will always have options in a round. There are lots of ways you can draw a good hand, and not a lot of ways you can draw a bad hand. Here are some examples of good hands: 1. You draw lots of your good cards. This means you can time when you get awesome stuff to happen for maximum effect, or grab lots of ops. 2. You draw lots of your opponent's good cards, especially stuff you can discard. This means you can time when they get awesome stuff for minimum effect, and you'll likely have tons of ops to boot. 3. You draw a fairly even mixture of your good/poo poo cards and their good/poo poo cards. This means you can accomplish what you need while still having the ops power to mitigate the bad stuff that you'll cause with their cards. 4. You draw a scoring card. This is almost always good. The fact that all cards can be used for ops means you can apply them in some way to anywhere on the map you can access, so you'll almost always be able to do that really important thing you need to do; the question is always how effective and economical the action is and the timing, especially the timing. Really the only objectively bad draw, as far as I can tell, is a combination of low-ops cards (especially if they're low-ops opposing cards with events that screw you in the moment, but again you can control the timing) combined with more than one scoring card, giving you little power to control the map on the turn when you move for score. This isn't especially common, and a single round of this won't sink you if you aren't already in a terrible position (opponent with heavy control of all scoring cards you hold). Bottom line, I guess, is play it more. I think you'll find the strategy deepens over time!
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Jul 13, 2015 18:42
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Mister Sinewave posted:Good luck! It's not for everyone, but I'm definitely enjoying the game.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:53
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Tekopo posted:I kind of liked CitOW but it didn't feel terribly balanced to me in some ways. I think the expansion helped a little bit in that regard, and playing the rats was fun, but I'm not 100% on the asymmetry being handled that well. Also the combat system doesn't completely win me over either.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:55
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GrandpaPants posted:8 dice is what I meant, which made a lot of the Chaos cards kinda unsatisfying to play since the 3rd tier cards all added dice that didn't get used, and the only way for me to lose dice was from a few of the Khorne cards. It was even more unsatisfying in that a lot of the cards needed me to have more morale dice than my opponent, which I couldn't trigger because I couldn't get any more despite having a lot of cards that gave me morale dice. Maybe my opponent should have had more cards that made me lose dice (he had a few, but again he lost momentum hard), so my combat was just playing the cards with the most icons that I wanted without being able to trigger most of the cool stuff, which didn't really make me feel rad. Those final cards add so much in the way of icons and special abilities though, the extra dice not being able to be added isn't that much of a big deal. Although you have to remember that Chaos is set up to be playing a lot of weak cultist based forces so they're there to buff that idea. In the same way that Eldar has lots that are rallying routed units - because they have a few things with lots of health that you will want to keep bringing back to stop all your aspect warriors/small ships getting splatted.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:59
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Blamestorm posted:Terra Mystica is my "I feel like I am the only person in the universe who doesn't appreciate this" game. (I'm sure we all have at least one of these. Dominion for me is maybe number two but that's another can of worms.) I feel like I should start a club, if only to prove that there are actually people like us who don't enjoy Terra Mystica. True Story Time: I hadn't played TM yet even though it had been out for like almost a year (the second time, not the first way-too-small-printing time). Mostly I felt like it wouldn't appeal to me, but that was all unfounded gut feeling. So, one night at the Game cafe, I get a chance to sit down and play it. As we're setting up, the owner of the place, Bill, stops at our table as he's walking around doing running-a-cafe things: Bill: "Hey, you're finally playing Terra Mystica!" Me: "Yeah, I figured it was abo-" Bill:  "You won't like it."Me: "I dunno I should give it a fair sha-" Bill: *shakes head* "You won't like it." *walks away* He was right.
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Jul 13, 2015 19:05
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I've played both Caverna and Agricola (only on iOS) about 5-6 times each. I mainly own Caverna because I think it's more approachable to newer players, which are almost always among the people I play with. Also, while I'm not a new player to Caverna, I find myself to be a novice at either game, and I just like the way Caverna is more forgiving than Agricola. For example, in Caverna, you can convert resources into food any time without having to use an action or without having access to things like cooking stoves. In Agricola, you have to plan out being able to even do that let alone think about how you're going to generate the resources that will eventually become food. As far as the variable setup part of this debate, I can see the point that Agricola has a lot more possibilities than Caverna, but I don't think I'll ever play Caverna enough times to even get to the point of feeling like I'm repeating things. Also, consider that Caverna may add new tiles as time goes by and I can easily see it getting to the point that you have to do a pre-draft type of thing so you have space on the table for the tiles.
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Jul 13, 2015 19:05
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silvergoose posted:Bear in mind that "to be a good chess player" you also do need to know how to play well tactically. If what you mean is "to be able to thrash anyone who is very new to the game", yes, openings will do that. But then again, so will knowing how to fork. Well yeah, I was being specific there to openings, to be good at chess openings requires memory. There are obviously other skills that come into play later in the game.
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Jul 13, 2015 19:42
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I agree that Chess, being 100% fixed and symmetrical, is really about calculation and memorization and very little (if any) strategy at a non-entry level of play.
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Jul 13, 2015 19:46
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Chomp8645 posted:I agree that Chess, being 100% fixed and symmetrical, is really about calculation and memorization and very little (if any) strategy at a non-entry level of play. I don't think this is true, given players with comparable preparation. It does have a high up-front barrier of memorization to compete to the point strategy comes into play.
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Jul 13, 2015 20:21
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Chomp8645 posted:I agree that Chess, being 100% fixed and symmetrical, is really about calculation and memorization and very little (if any) strategy at a non-entry level of play. Not really, unless you happen to play chess like an IBM supercomputer. Pattern recognition is much more important than raw calculating ability.
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Jul 13, 2015 20:28
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My copy of Dark Moon showed up today. Super hyped to try this out on Thursday, even if half of the folks won't be there. Edit: Also got Darkest Night expansion 4: In Tales of Old. That should be cool, too. Darkest Night is great. Echophonic fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jul 13, 2015 |
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Jul 13, 2015 20:47
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I'm thinking of sleeving some Dominion/Netrunner cards, and when I look online for quick recommendations I just keep seeing the treadmill of "A sucks, use B" and then "B sucks, use C" and then it seems it always leads to "they all suck, JUST GO FOR THE KMC HYPER MATTES!" for people who like to burn money or something. Does anyone have any non-extreme recommendations for just simple/cheap ones that are not pure crap?
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Jul 13, 2015 20:52
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jeeves posted:I'm thinking of sleeving some Dominion/Netrunner cards, and when I look online for quick recommendations I just keep seeing the treadmill of "A sucks, use B" and then "B sucks, use C" and then it seems it always leads to "they all suck, JUST GO FOR THE KMC HYPER MATTES!" for people who like to burn money or something. You get what you pay for. Buy the kind that approximates how much you were hoping to spend to sleeve the game.
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Jul 13, 2015 20:58
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Chomp8645 posted:I agree that Chess, being 100% fixed and symmetrical, is really about calculation and memorization and very little (if any) strategy at a non-entry level of play. Growing up, I played chess competitively for some time. I was never super good or anything, but I was rated about 1950-2000 for some time. You are wrong. At my level, I absolutely did a lot of things based on what I thought the position wanted from me. Even when I read grandmaster analyses, you would see things like, "white is behind because of his inactive bishop", or *short line* "black is behind here because of his passive pieces, even though he has a material advantage." Rutibex is basically correct.
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Jul 13, 2015 21:22
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jeeves posted:I'm thinking of sleeving some Dominion/Netrunner cards, and when I look online for quick recommendations I just keep seeing the treadmill of "A sucks, use B" and then "B sucks, use C" and then it seems it always leads to "they all suck, JUST GO FOR THE KMC HYPER MATTES!" for people who like to burn money or something. I knew a guy who did that with all of his M:tG cards. I'm still not sure how I feel about it; on the one hand, holy permanent decision Batman, on the other, those cards are probably still in perfect condition now. It may not be a smart move, but it's definitely a cheap move.
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Jul 13, 2015 21:24
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jeeves posted:I'm thinking of sleeving some Dominion/Netrunner cards, and when I look online for quick recommendations I just keep seeing the treadmill of "A sucks, use B" and then "B sucks, use C" and then it seems it always leads to "they all suck, JUST GO FOR THE KMC HYPER MATTES!" for people who like to burn money or something. Just buy a box of dragon sleeves for netrunner to just sleeve one corp and one runner. They'll last for a very long time and in 3 years you'll forget about the $15 you spent on them. You don't need to sleeve every netrunner card unless you want to make a cube with your selection. For dominion, just get penny sleeves or the cheapest mayday ones you can find.
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Jul 13, 2015 21:31
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Echophonic posted:My copy of Dark Moon showed up today. Super hyped to try this out on Thursday, even if half of the folks won't be there. Please share you experience, it looks like the exact weight class I'd like for a traitor game so I'd like to know if you felt anything while playing.
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Jul 13, 2015 21:51
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jeeves posted:I'm thinking of sleeving some Dominion/Netrunner cards, and when I look online for quick recommendations I just keep seeing the treadmill of "A sucks, use B" and then "B sucks, use C" and then it seems it always leads to "they all suck, JUST GO FOR THE KMC HYPER MATTES!" for people who like to burn money or something. If you want penny sleeves get penny sleeves.  that's all there is to it.If you want good dragon sleeves then no, you can't get those for cheap. That's how the world works.
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Jul 13, 2015 21:59
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Time for me to ramble about Dominion sleeves again? OK. I bought a couple hundred Mayday penny sleeves around the time Seaside dropped. They were terrible. After a couple games the corners of the sleeves were all bent up and the cards were hard to shuffle. Since Mayday was the only game in town for euro card sleeves I upgraded to their premium line. Through the years I've increased the price of every Dominion expansion by some upsetting percentage continuing to buy sleeves fit them. Since I wasn't buying sleeves all at once they would come from different production runs. For a while you could count on a couple sleeves per pack being too narrow to use. Later runs were longer than earlier ones, so I got in the habit of trimming the tops off. The sleeves I got for Adventures went back to the original height. This might not affect you if you're buying everything at once, but there's always the possibility of another expansion in a couple years. For years now I've been telling people that sleeving Dominion wasn't with the money or time (seriously, sleeving 3517 cards takes a nontrivial amount of time) and that since your basic Treasure and Victory cards are the only ones which will see any real wear you're better off buying a couple copies of the Base Cards expansion and replacing the old ones once they're worn. But with Adventures cards noticeably more bendy than the German printed expansions, I'm feeling a little better about my in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound attitude to keeping Dominion sleeved. I can still tell if a card is from Adventures by touch, even through sleeves, but it's a little more effort. So I'm not sure I'm as strong of an advocate against sleeving as I once was, but I do know that Mayday is kind of a shady company and I've only continued to buy sleeves from them because replacing all mine would cost a lot. I don't have any experience with anyone else's Euro sleeves, but FFG's a professional operation who should at least be able to make them pretty consistently.
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Jul 13, 2015 22:02
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All I use is FFG but my budget won't stand for me to sleeve all my Dominion cards. I'm not dealing with a company (Mayday) who tries to deal with their defective poo poo by sending it all over the place to other customers, that's just too ridiculous for words (this was their initial response to the crappy Crokinole boards they sold).
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Jul 13, 2015 22:05
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