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quote:I think Sigmar is a definite in-universe historical figure, it's like the Empire humans were all worshipping Charlemagne-Conan-Jesus This calls to mind the Hardcore History episode where supposedly you see Viking Jesus turn into a war god as part of the post-Fall-of-Rome integration of Christianity with Norse mythology.
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Jul 13, 2015 16:33
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ProfessorCirno posted:Did this also happen during the reign of John Wick? It was under Ree Sosebee, who may as well have been his handpicked successor. He still had some story influence at the time, but it's not clear how much. (He was moving on to 7th Sea around then.)
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Jul 13, 2015 16:43
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See, all I'm taking away from this is that whether the card game came first or not, L5R RPG fans aren't wrong to not want the card game's metaplot encroaching on the RPG because the metaplot sounds dumb as hell.
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Jul 13, 2015 17:56
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This is true but the CCG makes about a zillion more dollars than the RPG, so you either have to lump it or just use one of the awesome alternate settings from Imperial Histories, which you should probably do anyway.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:01
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Or alternatively play the 4th Edition of the RPG which has no built in metaplot.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:04
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Alien Rope Burn posted:This is true but the CCG makes about a zillion more dollars than the RPG, so you either have to lump it or just use one of the awesome alternate settings from Imperial Histories, which you should probably do anyway. It's just that at first people were making it out to be like the TRPG contingent were being dumb and irrational turbonerds angry that a CCG existed and was popular but every time anyone goes into detail about the L5R ongoing CCG metaplot it sounds like a complete loving trainwreck. It's like an ongoing version of Games Workshops' attempts at holding player-driven events where they already have the story in mind and then get pissy when the players go and do something else, right down to "rewarding" people by killing beloved faction characters. I wouldn't want anything to do with that either.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:05
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Iron Rokugan it is!
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Jul 13, 2015 18:07
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Dr. Tough posted:Or alternatively play the 4th Edition of the RPG which has no built in metaplot. It's there, just deemphasized. There have been attempts to give the RPG players more voice, particularly through the Winter Court events, but it's relatively token compared to the CCG. And boy, everything I mentioned is just just the tip of the iceberg in regard to how kooky the metaplot gets, folks.
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Jul 13, 2015 18:37
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Like the time the entire Scorpion Clan was banished to a different card game. (Burning Sands was actually pretty cool, but it's entirely forgotten now.)
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Jul 13, 2015 18:43
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Alien Rope Burn posted:It's there, just deemphasized. It's there, but it's completely optional. The main book lists off various centuries that can be played in and one is literally just "no metaplot"
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Jul 13, 2015 19:00
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Night10194 posted:Also, they cost 50 USD per pack of 5, with the implication you'll need 20-30 of them. This is meant to be a skirmish game with a small buy-in and outside of the starter set, a decent unit of Sigmarines costs like 200-300 dollars.
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Jul 13, 2015 19:56
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Payndz posted:Is there a reason why GW charges such insane prices for its minis other than "Because we can, gently caress you"? That's basically the entire reason, actually.
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Jul 13, 2015 19:56
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Where's the Shinjo bushi school in core, then?  Seriously, tho, there is a bit of slippage; for example, the Spider Clan in the core is presumed to be a quiet conspiracy, while by Great Clans they're out in the open. And there are books like Strongholds of the Empire or Second City that presume you're playing in the (then) current CCG period. Granted, it's much more inclusive that previous editions, but there is still a bit of a ignorable bias towards CCG events.
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Jul 13, 2015 20:05
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Payndz posted:Is there a reason why GW charges such insane prices for its minis other than "Because we can, gently caress you"? They're plastic now, aren't they? Some companies straight-up overcharge for their products; Sirlin Games comes to mind, to be blunt.
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Jul 13, 2015 20:16
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Payndz posted:Is there a reason why GW charges such insane prices for its minis other than "Because we can, gently caress you"? Nope, that's the reason. They think no one is competing with them and thus they can charge as much as they want.
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Jul 13, 2015 20:21
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Despite cutbacks, GW's business model has ridiculous amounts of overhead for a game company. Because they own and operate a chain of retail outlets! On the other hand, they get to sell their products from those retail outlets (and their website) at full retail price, rather than what most game companies have to do: sell their products entirely at wholesale price to distributors, who then take a cut and sell them to retailers, who then add ~40% to 60% margin and sell at retail price, in order to stay in business. So that's not an actual excuse. GW likely has entrenched production techniques that cost more than they should. GW is also profitable enough to pay dividends (which as I've written before is pretty questionable). So it really just boils down to, GW's prices are so high because GW's customers are willing to pay that much. And GW doesn't care that it could sell a much higher volume if they lowered their prices. Of course they do no market research so any test to see how much more they'd sell if they lowered prices would be based on how well a specific box of miniatures sold when they offered it for less than what their calculations told them would be the normal price, so if they tried the experiment with a unit that was less popular because, say, its rules sucked in the game or the sculpts were ugly, they might come to the wrong conclusion about their pricing models.
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Jul 13, 2015 20:23
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Ha-ha "might"
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Jul 13, 2015 23:31
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I really feel for WHFB fans- having a game you're so invested in (both emotionally and financially) unceremoniously taken out back and shot to be replaced with, frankly, poo poo, well, that's got to be pretty awful.
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Jul 14, 2015 01:40
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I'm amazed anybody puts up with it. I mean, I literally can't think of a company that treats their fans more badly. It's like watching people line up to get punched in the face. It defies belief.
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Jul 14, 2015 02:48
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George Lucas' treatment of Star Wars fans came pretty close
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Jul 14, 2015 02:51
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I feel like in competent hands, they could have been the next Star Wars. If a setting has so much draw that people will be willing to put up with GW, just imagine what it would be like through a company that didn't hate them.
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Jul 14, 2015 03:02
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Dr. Tough posted:George Lucas' treatment of Star Wars fans came pretty close That's honestly a bit of butthurt revisionist history, really...That's actually been brought up in the Star Wars thread over in CineD over the last couple days, and isn't quite as true as it gets parroted.
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Jul 14, 2015 03:05
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jivjov posted:That's honestly a bit of butthurt revisionist history, really...That's actually been brought up in the Star Wars thread over in CineD over the last couple days, and isn't quite as true as it gets parroted. If you start talking about it you'll summon SMG and he'll come here to tell us about how The Age of Sigmar is actually a paean to worker's rights and the most progressive game to be published...ever.
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Jul 14, 2015 03:07
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Well if there's any place on the internet I'd trust to set the record straight on movies it's Cinema Discusso.
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Jul 14, 2015 03:08
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Kai Tave posted:Well if there's any place on the internet I'd trust to set the record straight on movies it's Cinema Discusso. Yeah, I'm not inclined to set metaphorical foot in that muck to dig up a grain of value. A quick summary or link to where the discussion starts, please?
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Jul 14, 2015 03:20
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Dr. Tough posted:George Lucas' treatment of Star Wars fans came pretty close George Lucas' treatment of his own films has been awful. But his treatment of fans has been pretty great. He's always been highly supportive of fan-made Star Wars content, for example, actively encouraging fans to do their fanfilms and stuff, the whole cosplay scene, all that. Which stands in stark contrast with GW, who send C&Ds and actively sue fans for daring to sully their IP.
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Jul 14, 2015 03:25
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Leperflesh posted:George Lucas' treatment of his own films has been awful. But his treatment of fans has been pretty great. He's always been highly supportive of fan-made Star Wars content, for example, actively encouraging fans to do their fanfilms and stuff, the whole cosplay scene, all that. Which stands in stark contrast with GW, who send C&Ds and actively sue fans for daring to sully their IP. Yeah, this is the core of it. There's this weird mythology built up that Lucas makes tweaks and changes to his films to actively spite fans, and that the prequel movies were intentionally poorly made, and that everything good in Star Wars came from one of the other people working on the saga. By his own admission, Lucas doesn't work well with people. He's the "ideas guy" and really needs a good crew to handle other duties. Lemniscate Blue posted:Yeah, I'm not inclined to set metaphorical foot in that muck to dig up a grain of value. A quick summary or link to where the discussion starts, please? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3514675&pagenumber=601&perpage=40#post447656368 Here's a good one.
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Jul 14, 2015 03:30
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Leperflesh posted:George Lucas' treatment of his own films has been awful. But his treatment of fans has been pretty great. He's always been highly supportive of fan-made Star Wars content, for example, actively encouraging fans to do their fanfilms and stuff, the whole cosplay scene, all that. Which stands in stark contrast with GW, who send C&Ds and actively sue fans for daring to sully their IP. This is a really good point honestly. jivjov posted:Yeah, this is the core of it. I don't think that George Lucas made his weird special editions to troll his fans or something but I do think it's pretty weird of him to do so and then really dig his heels in about re-releasing the unadulterated versions. Plenty of directors have stories about what might have been versus the movie that actually got released, but few of them actually tried to retcon their own movies decades after the fact. Whatever you might say to try and compare George Lucas to GW, which I don't think is a fruitful comparison, the salient fact remains that when GW put a stake in Warhammer Fantasy they basically gave a middle finger to customers of theirs who sunk hundreds to thousands of dollars into a game that's now going to be increasingly difficult for them to play given that it won't have store shelf presence to help get new players into things, it won't get any sort of official updates to try and straighten out the half-assed rules, and the new game is essentially completely incompatible with the old in every way. Meanwhile it's a lot less onerous to simply say "I'd like to watch the original Star Wars trilogy" and do so, and chances are it probably didn't cost you thousands of dollars and dozens of man-hours to painstaking assemble your copy.
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Jul 14, 2015 03:49
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Gravy Train Robber posted:If you start talking about it you'll summon SMG and he'll come here to tell us about how The Age of Sigmar is actually a paean to worker's rights and the most progressive game to be published...ever. The Cinema Discusso thread has me hyped to re-watch the prequels. Wish me luck.
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Jul 14, 2015 04:21
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Mormon Star Wars posted:The Cinema Discusso thread has me hyped to re-watch the prequels. Wish me luck. I believe in you.
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Jul 14, 2015 05:51
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Mormon Star Wars posted:The Cinema Discusso thread has me hyped to re-watch the prequels. Wish me luck. The first thing you'll notice is that the acting in the prequels is even worse than you remember.
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Jul 14, 2015 08:17
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I don't think anyone sincerely believed Lucas burns with a seething hatred for the fans who made him a success. But you don't need to believe he's malicious to acknowledge that his post-trilogy creative decisions has been a frustrating pain in the rear end of those fans.
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Jul 14, 2015 11:25
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moths posted:I don't think anyone sincerely believed Lucas burns with a seething hatred for the fans who made him a success. But you don't need to believe he's malicious to acknowledge that his post-trilogy creative decisions has been a frustrating pain in the rear end of those fans. This was basically my point. I don't think that Lucas is as bad as GW, hence the "pretty close". Someone pointed out that GW is overly protective of their IP, Lucas was kind of the opposite where the Star Wars EU was such a mess that Disney just swept it all away rather than try and comb through and fix it.
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Jul 14, 2015 12:10
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It's just weird that someone would spend any effort debunking what's obviously frustrated hyperbole. Of course he doesn't hate his fans. Actually... that's not weird at all, that's nerd culture + internet.
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Jul 14, 2015 12:25
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Dr. Tough posted:This was basically my point. I don't think that Lucas is as bad as GW, hence the "pretty close". Someone pointed out that GW is overly protective of their IP, Lucas was kind of the opposite where the Star Wars EU was such a mess that Disney just swept it all away rather than try and comb through and fix it. Lucasfilm had a story group that reviewed EU works before they went to the presses. With 25+ years of EU of course Disney had to relegate the EU to Legends (which it already basically was, Lucasfilm had levels of canon anyway that didn't put the books on the same level as the films). Lucasfilm wasn't really the opposite of GW in any respect. GW is only protecting their IP to make money from gamers. Lucasfilm worked closely with EU authors to keep a sort of b-canon going for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon edit: VVV yeah Legends is a really cool setup alg fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jul 14, 2015 |
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Jul 14, 2015 13:49
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The trick of Star Wars EU though, is that before Disney the story group was just there for guidance and had to retcon a lot of stuff after the fact. Now, post-Disney, the story group has explicit authority to maintain one unified continuity, and all the non-film stuff is considered to have the same canonical weight as the films.
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Jul 14, 2015 13:54
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Sorry to take away from Star Wars chat but I have a question that I hope this thread can answer. I know that when Maelstorm went belly up they left a whole lot of orders unfilled and made off with customer money that should have been used to fill them. Is Mierce Miniatures made up of the people who actually stole from Maelstorm's customers or are they just a company that purchased the sculpts after liquidation, or some third more complicated option?
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Jul 14, 2015 15:21
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In other TG industry news, Ken Whitman of d20 Entertainment blocked Jolly Blackburn from the KODT Live Facebook group. https://www.facebook.com/jolly.blackburn/posts/10203949857901408 Why does this matter? Jolly Blackburn runs Kenzer Company, the people that own the Knights of the Dinner Table. The KODT web series is supposed to have a screening at Gen Con this year. It will be very interesting if Ken shows up for it.
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Jul 27, 2015 00:33
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Ken Whitman and d20 Entertainment came up before (I think in last month's chat thread); he's got a ridiculously bad reputation. He threatened to sue RPGNet a few years ago because people were talking about how he didn't fulfill his business obligations or something similar.
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Jul 27, 2015 00:38
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Does Jolly have a good reputation? I always loved KODT.
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Jul 27, 2015 02:40
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