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Judge inclined to release videos of Gardena police killing unarmed man Police responding to the report of a stolen bicycle first detain two friends of the theft victim, then shoot the brother of the victim, who came over to explain officers had made a mistake. He didn't realize; officers don't make mistakes. quote:The city argued that it had agreed to the legal settlement in part to keep the video from becoming public. Gardena also contended that releasing the video would deter police from using such cameras and would endanger the safety of the officers at a time of heightened public criticism of police killings.
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Jul 14, 2015 22:13
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Yeah, I think making them mandatory under threat of termination might solve that issue.
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Jul 14, 2015 22:27
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I like how part of the city's argument is basically, "No fair, we paid good money to cover up this video!"
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Jul 14, 2015 22:43
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bango skank posted:Here's a new one, apparently back in January a girl had a seizure at a concert in Alabama, and instead of rendering aid the police tazed her and her mother and then arrested the mom for disorderly conduct: Someone from this thread must have read it, out of 15 comments 4 are "We're you there? Do you know all the facts?"
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Jul 14, 2015 23:15
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Jarmak posted:Again, sorry that people want to have intelligent conversations about what are actual problems and actual reforms and how they'd work in the actual criminal justice system that we have instead of just yelling "gently caress the 5-0". I haven't participated in this thread for awhile, but just wanted to step in and say your style of argument is bullshit, possibly even worse than your argument itself. You could take a few clues on "intelligent conversations" from some of the people you're saying are yelling "gently caress the 5-0".
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Jul 14, 2015 23:20
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blarzgh posted:It would be really simple to stop officer-involved homicides - fire all cops, or take away their weapons and cars and tazers. Obviously that would have unreasonable consequences. But break it down more narrowly; "how do we reduce officer-involved homicides?" "Can we do so without impinging the police's ability to protect the rest of society?" "Am I willing to accept cops are necessary, and that people will die as long as there are cops?" It's not obvious, and you're jumping to conclusions. We would probably all be safer if cops were disarmed, or at least if their weapons were locked up in a trunk or console in their car with justification required for bringing them out.
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Jul 15, 2015 02:20
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Not only would the consequences of disarming police be reasonable, there are simply no reasons to oppose it other than the petulance, intransigence and bargaining power of the police. We know that police aren't in any special danger. We know that they don't train, and that nothing can get them to train. They'd sooner fake trainings, than train; they don't think they need it. And we know that police can and will bring civil society to a standstill if they're not satisfied with the treatment they receive, or with what's expected of them. That's why we don't disarm cops, because we're afraid of them. Police aren't in any special danger, and shouldn't be required to carry guns. Spare me (if you can) a discourse about dangers police encounter when enforcing the law. We know that police don't have guns because they're the "tip of the spear" or other kinds of proud bullshit; they have them for self-defense, the same as any citizen has. But they don't train enough; they don't train even to a level that a gun store crankhead wouldn't feel bashful in recommending to an elderly woman. As a result, they don't hit what they're aiming at. Well, if they can't even hold themselves to a standard to which responsible citizens hold themselves, let them at least put their guns in their pockets. That's right, I already said it: police can carry a J-frame Smith and Wesson in their pocket, and take the handcuffs off their belt and put them in their other pocket. They can keep their notebook in their hand; that's where it ought to be, while they're listening instead of talking, and taking notes instead of pointing guns. In royal blue slacks, with a peaked cap on. Stop antagonizing people, stop "projecting force and authority" and put your gun in your pocket, or turn it in if you can't shoot. Take off all the tactical harness Punisher bullshit, it makes you look ridiculous and paranoid. Hide your gun; you ought to be ashamed of yourself if somebody has to see it.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:02
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Hly poo poo, you guys are insane. Without the common ground of rationality, its not possible for us to have a discussion. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 15, 2015 03:17
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There are plenty of places where normal cops don't carry guns, like Britain, New Zealand, and Norway. Why is suggesting that might not be so bad automatically "insane" and not worth addressing? Edit: Like your post is obviously you posturing as if you're the correct, reasonable person in the room, but it's clear that you haven't even questioned the idea. You just reflexively think they should. Lemming fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 03:23
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There are 370 million people in America. The right of the citizens to own weapons is constitutionally protected. Our murder, rape, and other violent crime rates are exponentially higher than basically anywhere else.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:28
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Hey look, you guys think whatever you want - thats one of the things that the Police protect for you. But the premise that underlies your belief system precludes us having a conversation. Ya'll enjoy.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:32
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Oh look, you're disingenuously implying that people here are arguing we should have no police. Nobody said or implied that. There is a real discussion to be had about what sort of weapons police have access to, and just because someone thinks police probably don't always need a gun on their hip doesn't mean they think they should be disbanded as an institution. But yes, our premise that the police shouldn't be above the law and should be accountable for their actions probably means you aren't going to be able to have a good faith discussion with us.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:35
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Perhaps cops gunning down/beating to death anybody who looks at them funny because they have squat for training plus instant gun access is an issue. E: also being effectively immune to prosecution Syenite fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 03:40
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blarzgh posted:There are 370 million people in America. The right of the citizens to own weapons is constitutionally protected. Our murder, rape, and other violent crime rates are exponentially higher than basically anywhere else. Which clearly means that the existing justice system and police enforcement is doing a bang-up fantastic job of keeping us safe, right? If we really do have "exponentially" higher violent crime rates, then something is loving broken with our system, and we need to figure out how to fix it. Personally, I feel that we should be focusing more on reducing crime rates by reducing the incentives for people to commit crimes in the first place. Give prisoners a way to make money and reintegrate into society when they leave jail. Stop fining the hell out of poor people so that they can save up and work towards a better career that will propel them out of poverty. Offer free rehab for drug users (and mandatory rehab for those caught committing crimes while on drugs) so that they too can reintegrate into society and aren't forced to steal to maintain their addiction. There are a lot of things that we could be doing to make it easier for people to not commit crimes in the first place. The stick approach of harsh sentencing and heavy fines is clearly not working given our "exponentially" higher violent crime rates. Having police that murder people, oppress them, fine them, and arrest people for spurious reasons doesn't exactly help any of the above objectives. If taking away their toys stops them from abusing their power quite so much, then we need to take away their toys. It's pretty clear from recent coverage of police that police weaponry is at best a necessary evil, and at worst an excuse for officers to commit state-sanctioned murder. Naturally, removing police weapons isn't something that can or should be done overnight. It would need to be a slow drawdown, with police being better trained to deal with situations without needing to use their firearms, restricting access to their firearms (placing them in a trunk or similar), and only eventually removing them entirely. Combine that with some of the above measures to reduce crime overall, and you might eventually eliminate the need for firearms on your average officer entirely. I would support access to firearms remaining on a few highly trained officers per department, but any deployment of said firearms would need to be thoroughly documented and justified, and improper usage would need to lead to immediate termination (with no ability to serve in law enforcement ever again) at the minimum.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:55
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blarzgh posted:There are 370 million people in America. The right of the citizens to own weapons is constitutionally protected. Our murder, rape, and other violent crime rates are exponentially higher than basically anywhere else. Crime exists everywhere, but it is higher in certain areas. The reason for that is, a small portion of people are committing a lot of crime. We have a social system that exasperates this, because certain people get left behind economically and socially. I'm kind of laughing at what you wrote because it seems to undermine your entire argument. What exactly are you arguing? Are guns in citizen's hands good or are they bad? Dirk the Average posted:Which clearly means that the existing justice system and police enforcement is doing a bang-up fantastic job of keeping us safe, right? We need to have some sort of law that locks down criminal history, too. Being able to find everyone's criminal history is just ridiculous. Yeah, we should obviously allow Day Care's to find out if someone is a kiddie fiddler, but the way that we treat people with criminal records is awful. If we say gently caress you to everyone with a criminal record, what do we as a society expect those people to do? They are going to commit more crime because that is all that is open to them in terms of making a survivable living. Pohl fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 04:11
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blarzgh posted:Hey look, you guys think whatever you want - thats one of the things that the Police protect for you. But the premise that underlies your belief system precludes us having a conversation. Ya'll enjoy. Look there can be police. I just don't see why they need to be kitted out like cyber-ninjas on an infiltration mission. If it's good enough for a contractor going to the bank to pick up 40 thousand dollars and pay cash for a pro street Chevelle, it's good enough for a cop: put a revolver in the pocket of your slacks and be done with it. What else do you need? A flashlight and a swiss army knife?
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Jul 15, 2015 04:21
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Saw this, http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33531314quote:"Mass incarceration makes our entire country worse off, and we need to do something about it", The sentencing bill or at least the process of getting one passed is gonna be interesting. Seems like an odd thing to tackle to me though, how many people/voters even care about prison reform?
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Jul 15, 2015 04:24
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semper wifi posted:Saw this, http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33531314 Considering most people seem to think prison rape is funny, not many I would guess. I don't think it isn't a thing to tackle, however. There is a huge problem with our prisons and it is a gigantic money sink for almost every state. The fact that people/citizens aren't familiar with the process shouldn't stop what is a good thing. Edit: Since I wrote a word salad, I think prison reform is needed and necessary. I don't care why Obama is doing it, it is a good thing. A lot of people are going to gnash their teeth and flail around wildly, but it needs to be done. Pohl fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 04:29
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Lemming posted:There are plenty of places where normal cops don't carry guns, like Britain, New Zealand, and Norway. Why is suggesting that might not be so bad automatically "insane" and not worth addressing? Great Britain is the only major country where most of the police force is not trained nor equipped with firearms. Both NZ and Norway have firearm training and have access to firearms, despite not routinely carrying them on their person. Norwegian cops often take the firearm from the car to their belt when going to eat, walking distances etc etc. In China, the other civilian police, People's Police, also trains and issues firearms, but doesn't routinely keep them on every officer. But yeah, Great Britain is the only major country to not have firearms or training. It's very different from Norway where the officer can take his pistol from the lockbox between the seats.
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Jul 15, 2015 04:39
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Vahakyla posted:Great Britain is the only major country where most of the police force is not trained nor equipped with firearms. I don't care if cops carry guns. Once upon a time I thought it would be better if they didn't, but I've rethought that. What we need to do is train them to not take out their guns unless they really really need to. Right now this "I was scared for my life" bullshit is rampant in policing. We need to train our cops to be communicative and understanding. I realize that a small percentage of the population may actually be willing to draw upon and kill a cop, but that percentage is really loving small. Rather than treating everyone as a cop killer, cops need to treat people they interact with as someone that needs help. Every time they pull someone over or approach someone they should assume that person is a good person and do their best to help them. Even if they are writing a ticket, they should assume that ticket is going to help the person, not as punishment, but as incentive. We are so far away from a model of service, it is ridiculous. Let cops have guns to protect themselves. That is fine, what isn't fine is the way they pull those guns and shoot people constantly. loving Boise ID had a time where cops were shooting people left and right. Boise loving Idaho. There was a shakeup in the Dept. and a citizen panel was implemented to review abuse. Guess what, the cops stopped killing people.
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Jul 15, 2015 04:52
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blarzgh posted:Our murder, rape, and other violent crime rates are exponentially higher than basically anywhere else. No they're not. I posted the exact statistics on homicide earlier in the thread, but the US is #111 out of 218 countries in intentional homicide rate at 4.7 per 100,000 people and the actual difference between the US and wealthy European nations is a matter of three or four killings per 100,000 people. Meanwhile, Honduras (#1 on the list) has a rate of 90.4 per 100,000 and #10 on the list (South Africa) is still at 33.6 per 100,000. The US only looks like it has a massive rate of murder when you fail to account for how it's proportionate to the population (simply listing the number of murders per year without seeing how it stacks up to the US's very high population puts it at #8, but only the most disingenuous would try to use that as their "proof") and when you fail to see how the US is at the tail end of homicide rate in the world with a rather small practical difference from the more "civilized" nations often brought up in comparison. This also fails to take into account the potential for nations to overreport or underreport their crime rates. The United States classifies any body that isn't obviously a suicide, accident, or natural causes a homicide and includes that in their count. This may result in the count being inflated compared to other first world nations, which may see a rise in their on-paper homicide rate if every body was judged the same as the FBI judges them. chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 09:02
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Pohl posted:We need to train our cops to be communicative and understanding. I realize that a small percentage of the population may actually be willing to draw upon and kill a cop, but that percentage is really loving small. Rather than treating everyone as a cop killer, cops need to treat people they interact with as someone that needs help. Every time they pull someone over or approach someone they should assume that person is a good person and do their best to help them. Even if they are writing a ticket, they should assume that ticket is going to help the person, not as punishment, but as incentive. I'm all for compassionate policing and truly believe that it would make a world of difference with the potential to ripple out positive effects on society beyond the police's direct sphere of influence and whatnot. That being said, what you're proposing represents a radical shift in the fundamental attitude and idea of what the role of police even is, because as it is right now, it seems the prevailing idea is that the cops are "good guys" whose job it is to weed out the "bad guys". Hell, the COPS theme song is loving "bad boys". And there's not much middle ground there, either you're the sheep or you're the wolf. This is an issue that goes far beyond just the police; the good vs. evil model of thinking permeates all of American culture. Movies and TV are fundamentally built around the concept because it makes for easily written and understood narratives, and whether we like it or not, I think we all kind of integrate some of that into our everyday world view. There's no nuance, no room for the idea that "good people sometimes do bad things". Therefore, once someone has been mentally sorted in to the "bad guy" box, expectations from that person are according to the "bad guy" model that all Americans have been spoon-fed from day one onwards. It follows that any cop training that aims to build on compassionate understanding would have to spend a good amount of effort breaking down these ingrained good/evil intuitions and teaching situational awareness and empathy on a level that most Americans have never learned to experience in the first place. I think it can be done in theory, but frankly I don't think it will find acceptance any time soon, beyond maybe some kind of barely-represented rare breed fringe circles, given the current state of affairs. You would need kick-rear end educators and police brass that's open to trying radical ideas, both of which are in short supply. A man can dream though 
snorch fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 09:55
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snorch posted:I'm all for compassionate policing and truly believe that it would make a world of difference with the potential to ripple out positive effects on society beyond the police's direct sphere of influence and whatnot. That being said, what you're proposing represents a radical shift in the fundamental attitude and idea of what the role of police even is, because as it is right now, it seems the prevailing idea is that the cops are "good guys" whose job it is to weed out the "bad guys". Hell, the COPS theme song is loving "bad boys". And there's not much middle ground there, either you're the sheep or you're the wolf. While I agree with you, why didn't you quote everything I said? By selectively quoting me you are in essence taking what I said out of context. I normally wouldn't have an issue with that, but the stuff you cut out is important and has a bearing on what you did quote.
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Jul 15, 2015 10:09
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Pohl posted:While I agree with you, why didn't you quote everything I said? By selectively quoting me you are in essence taking what I said out of context. I normally wouldn't have an issue with that, but the stuff you cut out is important and has a bearing on what you did quote. Sorry, I like to strip things down wherever I can and may have gotten carried away. Anything you'd like to expand upon?
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Jul 15, 2015 10:17
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The shooting video that Gardena, CA didn't want released was released. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-federal-judge-orders-release-of-videos-20150714-story.html?14369191098620#page=1 I can see why they fought to keep it hidden.
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Jul 15, 2015 13:39
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Terraplane posted:The shooting video that Gardena, CA didn't want released was released. That is some of the most bullshit I have ever seen. No wonder they fought to hide the video. Edit: they straight up loving murdered him, yo! Pohl fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 13:48
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Terraplane posted:The shooting video that Gardena, CA didn't want released was released.
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Jul 15, 2015 13:56
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To be fair he wasn't a cop shooting his ex-wife, so who knows what he might have done?
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Jul 15, 2015 14:00
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Zanzibar Ham posted:To be fair he wasn't a cop shooting his ex-wife, so who knows what he might have done? well it's p obvious the issue was he wouldn't keep his hands up that's many times more dangerous a situation than a cop filling his ex with lead in public
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Jul 15, 2015 14:25
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Zanzibar Ham posted:To be fair he wasn't a cop shooting his ex-wife, so who knows what he might have done? I can't even lol at that because, gently caress... Edit: I guess I never saw him put his hands down. Cops are pussies. Pohl fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 14:26
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No you see, when the one cop passed in front of him for half a second, that's when he flashed a gang sign and pulled out a dagger made of ice, that melted before they could take a picture of it. Why are civilians always trying to second-guess police, with the very freedom of expression police allow them to have?
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Jul 15, 2015 14:32
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I think he was trying to explain to the cops what was going on, and maybe he's just very used to gesticulating with his hands when talking.
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Jul 15, 2015 14:32
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Terraplane posted:The shooting video that Gardena, CA didn't want released was released. Disgusting and no doubt the apologists will come out with the usual threatening gestures and shoulda listened to the filthy murderers with badges. Laws literally not being applicable to cops is disgusting. Agrajag fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 14:44
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Really, this again? The United States has murder rates something like 200% higher than most comparable, developed nations. The fact that we do better than marginally developed countries - not to mention that the example you cited has massive (US sponsored as of not too long ago, at that) internal instability - is not something to be proud of. And despite your lengthy tangent, nobody is comparing raw numbers. Using per capita figures, the United States murder rate is far, far behind similarly developed countries
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Jul 15, 2015 14:45
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I think he was trying to explain to the cops what was going on, That is what happened. gently caress the police Agrajag posted:Disgusting and no doubt the apologists will come out with the usual threatening gestures and shoulda listened to the filthy murderers with badges. Laws literally not being applicable to cops is disgusting. Pohl fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 14:46
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Deranged cop with a gun actually shooting an unarmed victim? Nah, it's cool. A minority slightly slow at complying with officers or making hand gestures? Lets light em up. (minority in this case also happens to be the victim of theft and was the one who called the cops, but whatevs am I right?)
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Jul 15, 2015 14:51
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Pohl posted:[/s] He was black. No, Ricardo Diaz Zeferino wasn't. What happened is still bullshit, but don't make obvious errors in your rush to post how much you hate cops.
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Jul 15, 2015 14:51
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eh
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Jul 15, 2015 14:54
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I also like that they also managed to shoot the guy next to him while they are at point blank range. loving turds with badges so trigger happy they don't even give a gently caress that there are bystanders in their crosshairs. But a fellow turd waving his gun about and shooting his unarmed wife twice? Nah, shits all right. The second camera angle also shows without a doubt that he made no move towards any imaginary weapon. So loving disgusting. Your legal system is hosed America and it's a total joke. ActusRhesus is a perfect example of how messed up it is. (something something quarterbacking something something split second decision something lives justified - ActusRhesus) Agrajag fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 14:55
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Kalman posted:No, Ricardo Diaz Zeferino wasn't. Oh, he was hispanic? I feel better now. Wait, he is still dead right? I may have been wrong about his race, but how do you make this killing ok? Don't let my being wrong change the situation. That would be dumb. Pohl fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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