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Pellisworth posted:Trade is probably better than Maritime unless you're Westernizing and grabbing a couple trade companies for bonus merchants. It definitely is.
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Jul 16, 2015 13:48
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Quantity for the extra colonist is one. It helps that quantity is actually worthwhile now, but extra colonist is such a rare resource that it's worth a whole idea group.
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Jul 16, 2015 13:50
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:Also, not to say this game is making me think Hitler was on to something...but my attempt to make a Grand Bohemia has made me think France is evil, Great Britian is a bitch, all I need is Danzig and a little space...and I guess killing Jews is ok. Weird how a game can teach you so much. Hitler just wanted pretty borders, went a little too far to get them and got coalitioned. We've all been there.
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Jul 16, 2015 13:57
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Knuc U Kinte posted:Quantity for the extra colonist is one. It helps that quantity is actually worthwhile now, but extra colonist is such a rare resource that it's worth a whole idea group. Hence why I said "almost never" worthwhile  Quantity + Exploration for the +1 Colonist and +10 Settlers is absolutely worth it as a colonizer and the main exception I was thinking of. Economic for the potential +5% Discipline and +10% Artillery Combat Ability is also attractive, but less so since it got nerfed from 20% combat ability. I mean, Quantity is great anyway but the colonist policy is a strong incentive to pick it as your first military idea when colonizing. I pretty much always go Exploration, Expansion, Quantity and activate the +20 Settlers and +1 Colonist +10 Settlers policies when going hardcore colonial. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 13:58
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Pellisworth posted:Hence why I said "almost never" worthwhile I was just thinking of how I abused this policy and the colonist aspect to colonise the entire eastern coast of the US, the Caribbean, Louisiana, Canada, all African/Asian trade provinces from Mollucca to West Africa...as the Netherlands...so drat good.
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Jul 16, 2015 14:02
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Pellisworth posted:Trade is probably better than Maritime unless you're Westernizing and grabbing a couple trade companies for bonus merchants. You've already saved up enough for 2-3 ideas, though, so it's actually 13.3 or 10.7 MP income per month. Which is actually very doable even if you're only filling in a single idea track. If everything else is optimal you only need a ruler with 2 in the relevant stat. Base 3 + focus 2 + advisor 3 + power projection 1 = 9.
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Jul 16, 2015 15:23
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Chickpea Roar posted:You've already saved up enough for 2-3 ideas, though, so it's actually 13.3 or 10.7 MP income per month. Which is actually very doable even if you're only filling in a single idea track. If everything else is optimal you only need a ruler with 2 in the relevant stat. Base 3 + focus 2 + advisor 3 + power projection 1 = 9. True but is saving a couple hundred monarch points (assuming optimal conditions) worth picking Trade? I would argue not. Pick the idea group that does the most up-front for you, I think of policies just as nice bonuses. Mostly they're pretty small and even if you can wring out an MP savings its small. With a couple exceptions. Bort Bottles situation is maybe not the best example since Trade sounds like a good pick for him anyway. A lot of the time posters debate idea group picks based on policies which I think is rear end-backwards. Edit: Admin + Influence gets you a fat diplo-annexation discount which I imagine is fairly valuable since integration costs got more or less doubled in CS. That,the extra colonist, and maybe the military options with Economic are the standouts imo. A good counter example would be the +20% infantry combat ability from Innovative, which is strong but Innovative is pretty bad right now. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 15:45
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Take trade as Persia and sit on a 50 ducat income at a minimum
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Jul 16, 2015 16:14
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Is it reasonable to drop Exploration as an idea late in the game when you're done settling? I'm at maybe 75% of my current naval limit so the loss in that isn't too big, and I'm only using one exploration-based policy, which I could replace with something else I'm sure...
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Jul 16, 2015 16:29
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My EVE and dei gratia mash up is weird England is regularly destroyed by scottland and the timurids collapse into ugly patch works where most default to taberstan and Persia forms from like khiva yazd and lorestan
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Jul 16, 2015 16:33
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I really wish they'd take out Persia's cores, and replace them with a bunch of Persian rump states that don't go away. But I'm not sure if this is possible with the way cultures and cores work right now. It's just silly to me that such a massive country can form out of rebels. It's like, you would never see fully-formed France pop out 150 years after they'd been annexed. It would be a bunch of tiny countries. I know that's because French culture has a million sub-cultures in it but still.
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Jul 16, 2015 16:36
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Pellisworth posted:Bort Bottles situation is maybe not the best example since Trade sounds like a good pick for him anyway. A lot of the time posters debate idea group picks based on policies which I think is rear end-backwards. In this case you are correct, though. I was debating between two ideas: Trade and Maritime. The Naval forcelimits would have been nice and being able to Confirm Thalassocracy would have been nice. Compare that to getting 3 more Merchants, +20% Trade Power (I'm not even sure how this works), +25 Caravan Power, +10% trade efficiency, +25% trade steering. So Trade already looked better, then I looked at the policies and  . An MP saving policy (with Humanist for the idea discount), a +20% trade efficiency  because I already have Admin, plus opportunities for things like another 20% trade efficiency :iamafag: and a mishmash of other trade efficiency and/or production efficiency bonuses.I was so interested in the policy ramifications because I have been wealthy enough to be running the +3 advisors and for the longest time had +50 Power Projection, so I was usually ahead on tech. I have also been blessed with mostly decent rulers. However, I wanted more money. I have had to have two large Heavy ship laden fleets (one in the Med one in the Indian ocean) and armies are expensive. I have plenty of manpower and forcelimits but having armies of 12/4/16 in the early 1600s is loving expensive (I usually recruit 4 mercs in each army also). PLus needing transports to cart them around my massive empire. When this  happened, I was actually forced to take a loan (of 1600  ) when I was getting dogpiled by Europe (it was because I took Vienna).Yes, that was OPM in northern Germany Verden that declared a war on the Ottoman Empire:  I needed more money - not forcelimits, not MPs, just money. Once I Westernized I turned all of my Indian and Africa trade company-able provinces into trade companies and now I have like 7 merchants and more on the way and it is going to be histerical, I hope.
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Jul 16, 2015 16:56
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I'm doing a first real playthrough of EU4 now as Tunis. I've snapped up a rump Provence and got the econemy growing very slowly (It shifts between 5 and 30, growing at .2/mo to .5/mo). Can you give any tips for me to come out ahead? My plan has been to ally with the ottomans and hope nobody attacks me.
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Jul 16, 2015 16:58
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Bort Bortles posted:I am one of the ones who is often theorycrafting what idea sets to get because they have sweet policies Just in case you don't already know, each Merchant beyond the base is +5 to naval force limit, so Trade is secretly also a force limit expander.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:05
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Better Than Napoleon   All without messing up France's pretty borders. Cleaned up the mess as best I could by the end of the game with some client states:    That was a fun achievement.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:29
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Larry Parrish posted:I really wish they'd take out Persia's cores, and replace them with a bunch of Persian rump states that don't go away. But I'm not sure if this is possible with the way cultures and cores work right now. It's just silly to me that such a massive country can form out of rebels. It's like, you would never see fully-formed France pop out 150 years after they'd been annexed. It would be a bunch of tiny countries. I know that's because French culture has a million sub-cultures in it but still.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:30
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Larry Parrish posted:I really wish they'd take out Persia's cores, and replace them with a bunch of Persian rump states that don't go away. But I'm not sure if this is possible with the way cultures and cores work right now. It's just silly to me that such a massive country can form out of rebels. It's like, you would never see fully-formed France pop out 150 years after they'd been annexed. It would be a bunch of tiny countries. I know that's because French culture has a million sub-cultures in it but still. I don't mind Persia as it is. I do admit it's really weird how the rebels work, though. As Ottomans, I took and vassalized a single Persian province from QQ, did some things in Europe and then noticed my Persian vassal was sending a decent sized stack to help. I went and looked over and in the ten years or so since I'd released Persia, the entire country had defected from the Timurids, over a full war's worth of provinces for nothing.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:34
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MrBling posted:Just in case you don't already know, each Merchant beyond the base is +5 to naval force limit, so Trade is secretly also a force limit expander.  Thank you for the heads up...that is amazing. I'm about to seize European colonies in West and South Africa and I am hopping along India's coast over to Indonesia so I may have a million merchants one day, and extra forcelimits to go along with it  OneTwentySix posted:I don't mind Persia as it is. I do admit it's really weird how the rebels work, though. As Ottomans, I took and vassalized a single Persian province from QQ, did some things in Europe and then noticed my Persian vassal was sending a decent sized stack to help. I went and looked over and in the ten years or so since I'd released Persia, the entire country had defected from the Timurids, over a full war's worth of provinces for nothing.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:51
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MrBling posted:Just in case you don't already know, each Merchant beyond the base is +5 to naval force limit, so Trade is secretly also a force limit expander. I think they changed that. I seem to remember taking trade in one of my beta patch games and it had no effect on my naval force limits.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:59
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I'm not whining about Persian cultures not really being represented or whatever, I'm whining that they haven't quite finishing break up the whole world into a disgusting mess of Primary Culture cores that take forever to go away and make big countires explode into confetti. It's really cool whenever it manages to happen to Lithuania, Ottos, Ming, Hungary, eastern part of Timurids ETC.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:03
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Hryme posted:I think they changed that. I seem to remember taking trade in one of my beta patch games and it had no effect on my naval force limits. Oh really? That's too bad. I haven't really played too much on the beta yet, so I haven't noticed.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:05
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Also re: Maritime vs Trade. I always take Maritime over Trade, just because the bonuses from Confirm Thassolwhatever are really good to have. Also, if you really want, you can always repick that slot into trade later. Big spend of MP though.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:06
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Larry Parrish posted:I'm not whining about Persian cultures not really being represented or whatever, I'm whining that they haven't quite finishing break up the whole world into a disgusting mess of Primary Culture cores that take forever to go away and make big countires explode into confetti. It's really cool whenever it manages to happen to Lithuania, Ottos, Ming, Hungary, eastern part of Timurids ETC.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:40
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Larry Parrish posted:Also re: Maritime vs Trade. I always take Maritime over Trade, just because the bonuses from Confirm Thassolwhatever are really good to have. Also, if you really want, you can always repick that slot into trade later. Big spend of MP though.  Which, in this case, I would rather have Trade and its associated benefits and policies. There are two policy options for +20% Trade efficiency, one for +20% Production Efficiency, and a whole bunch of other hybrids that all look like they help you print money. Meanwhile Maritime just gives me forcelimits, some repair bonuses, the Confirm Thalassocracy decision, a tradition bonus which wont ever amount to much, a leader skill bonus that will never be utilized, and blockade efficiency which is overkill. I'm not making an argument for one or the other - I usually really like Maritime but it just doesnt have the appeal to me that it used to. edit: and isnt trade efficiency huge? The idea line itself only gives 10% and there are not many other ways of getting (it is not usually something countries have in their NIs and I dont think it is an option in the Nation Designer). edit2: part of why I am less-high on Maritime is because effort. Thalassocracy requires you be in one specific area of the world and be powerful enough to dominate 5+ trade zones. Ship cost reductions require you to build the ships anew which means disbanding and rebuilding. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 18:53
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Is there a page or tool tip that shows you all your added up bonuses? For instance I have a national idea that gives -20% threshold for accepted cultures, then also took the idea that gives like another -60%. Or I have a national idea for -20% diplo annex cost plus an idea for another -20% cost plus I think some event that gave me a temporary bonus. Basically is there any big summary of all my various bonuses added together? Sometimes I get OCD and nervous that some of them aren't stacking right.
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Jul 16, 2015 19:18
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Today I decided to try something for fun and instead of breaking up the Ottomans as the HRE - I gave the Ottomans territories equal to a 2000% win score for them, to see what would happen. Worth it.
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Jul 16, 2015 19:46
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Bort Bortles posted:The only bonuses I see from Confirm Thalassocracy are: Thalassocracy is available for three different points, and you ought to be dominating at least one of them anyway if you're in the trade game for real. I think you're right about the  thing though- that's the main difference between the two. Trade is good if you just want money to come in without really thinking about it; Maritime is better, but you have to be actively involved. Constant trade dispute wars and building and upgrading fleets and stuff. Force limits + repair + combat ability will make you practically unbeatable on the sea against any AI- you can win naval wars without even really paying attention, and without anyone competing on the sea you get so much more trade power. Especially in the beta patch where they made light ship steering more powerful. The naval tradition bonus (+ the extra from all those new light ships steering) gives you a whole bunch more trade steering too- way more than what Trade gives you.everyone really underestimates the repairing while not docked thing, that's one of the most powerful special ideas in the game. it completely changes how you treat your fleets (and if that "trade fleets don't auto-repair in colonial nations" bug is still in, it helps the trade game there too). also +2 naval leader maneuver is huge. faster fleets, less attrition, more trade power, and it's also the most important attribute for battles Koramei fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 20:12
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IMO trade efficiency is a lot more important early-mid game but usually when I take maritime or trade I already dominate at least one major node so it ends up not being as effective as i'd like
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Jul 16, 2015 20:15
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Koramei posted:also +2 naval leader maneuver is huge. faster fleets, less attrition, more trade power, and it's also the most important attribute for battles
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Jul 16, 2015 20:24
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Trade is best if you're not getting merchants from colonial nations or trading companies, and you have trade power in wealthy nodes not steering to you. If you can't make much use of the merchants I'd rather go Maritime, though as has been said it's more effort. Honestly I rarely take anything other than Influence, Exploration, and Diplomatic for dip ideas tho.
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Jul 16, 2015 21:10
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Pellisworth posted:Trade is best if you're not getting merchants from colonial nations or trading companies, and you have trade power in wealthy nodes not steering to you. If you can't make much use of the merchants I'd rather go Maritime, though as has been said it's more effort. Im my current game, Im trying to make a strong trading/colonial arabian power. Ive started as a custom nation created over Hedjaz, a merchant republic with that +1 merchant national idea. So Ive started with 4 merchants already. I took Humanism and then Exploration. I was thinking about getting Trade next, but I guess it would be better to get Maritime instead? Also, what idea should I get to have some good CBs over asian nations? My objective is to colonize or conquer most of Asia before the europeans arrive.
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Jul 16, 2015 21:22
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Yeah, if you're building colonies and sucking in global trade you get so many merchants and so much gold anyway that Trade seems a bit superfluous.
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Jul 16, 2015 21:24
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Elias_Maluco posted:Im my current game, Im trying to make a strong trading/colonial arabian power. Ive started as a custom nation created over Hedjaz, a merchant republic with that +1 merchant national idea. So Ive started with 4 merchants already. ~Create Trade Companies in the three African zones ~Use the different CBs granted by Expansion and Exploration idea capstones. ~Found an India Trade Company (though this may not work if your is in Asia). Pellisworth posted:Trade is best if you're not getting merchants from colonial nations or trading companies, and you have trade power in wealthy nodes not steering to you. If you can't make much use of the merchants I'd rather go Maritime, though as has been said it's more effort. It is really what I love about the game, so much choice and there are usually multiple good choices. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 21:31
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Elias_Maluco posted:Im my current game, Im trying to make a strong trading/colonial arabian power. Ive started as a custom nation created over Hedjaz, a merchant republic with that +1 merchant national idea. So Ive started with 4 merchants already. In your situation it might actually be better to take trade. For one thing there won't be that many super-fleets in the Indian Ocean, plus since you have a straight crossing to Africa that nullifies distant overseas (and it's easy enough to get that to India too), even if you do westernize (which you should), it might not be worth making them all trade companies. e:^ oh yeah true. since your capital is in Asia, you can't make trade companies anywhere in Asia, even all the way off in the Philippines (yes, this is dumb and should be changed). however, that's totally a moot point 'cause you should just take Expansion instead. It gives you a CB on all of Asia and Africa (once you westernize) plus an extra colonist for locking the land down, and a whole bunch of other bonuses too. Koramei fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 21:36
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Elias_Maluco posted:Im my current game, Im trying to make a strong trading/colonial arabian power. Ive started as a custom nation created over Hedjaz, a merchant republic with that +1 merchant national idea. So Ive started with 4 merchants already. Expansion is Eat Asia: The Idea Group. Get Maritime if you want more/better navies but I'd do Expansion first. You'll find Quantity really nice too, probably.
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Jul 16, 2015 21:36
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Koramei posted:In your situation it might actually be better to take trade. For one thing there won't be that many super-fleets in the Indian Ocean, plus since you have a straight crossing to Africa that nullifies distant overseas (and it's easy enough to get that to India too), even if you do westernize (which you should), it might not be worth making them all trade companies.
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Jul 16, 2015 21:37
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It seems weird that when I release my New World colonies they'd make themselves monarchies...
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Jul 16, 2015 22:35
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:It seems weird that when I release my New World colonies they'd make themselves monarchies... What government are you?
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Jul 16, 2015 23:13
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Thanks for the tips, guys. So I guess I will get Expansion first and than later I decide between Trade and Maritime (or something else). And I guess I will have to westernize then? Any guides on how to do it? Ive never done it before;
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Jul 16, 2015 23:26
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Elias_Maluco posted:Thanks for the tips, guys. Real answer: If you took Exploration you can colonize around Africa and put a colony next to a colonial nation in America OR conquer a Western core province in Africa, then click a westernize button and pray.
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Jul 16, 2015 23:28
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