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Escobarbarian posted:Literally suggesting that the only reason your lead was able to become the good, strong person he is and has been over decades and decades of television, books, audios, whatever, only become the yes flawed but overall inspiring, brave man he is, is because this one companion from 50 years in who hasn't even been there a full season and is still far from fully drawn as a character was supportive to him as a scared child, is such a loving insulting thing to do to a long-established franchise in my eyes. It's just.....it's so lovely. She had just learned it from him so it's at worst a pre-destination paradox. It's not Clara coming in from left field to change the Doctor's future, it's the Doctor learning, and influencing himself, inadvertently, through the use of his companions - which is the loving theme of the 50 years of the show. It's not an insult, it's a god drat love letter.
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Jul 18, 2015 06:54
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I'm guessing you've never seen the early Hartnell serials?
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Jul 18, 2015 08:08
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Quoting for a new page.
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Jul 18, 2015 08:19
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I absolutely loved Listen the first time it aired. When I re-watched it now, knowing what was going to happen, the cracks really started to show. Some things just don't make any sense given the resolution, like the doctor writing on his own chalkboard or everyone for some reason having that dream. I can forgive it a lot, though, because it of how it continues the examination of the Doctor's flawed character as we travel from Into the Dalek's anger, though pride in Sherwood, to irrational terror. But that speech Clara gave.. was definitely way too long and mostly unnecessary. zzMisc fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 08:54
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ashpanash posted:She had just learned it from him so it's at worst a pre-destination paradox. It's not Clara coming in from left field to change the Doctor's future, it's the Doctor learning, and influencing himself, inadvertently, through the use of his companions - which is the loving theme of the 50 years of the show. Obviously I know it's not intended to piss on anything but regardless of the intentions it just to me is a quintessentially not done thing. Even if she was inspired by him to begin with she still did that thing. She still has that importance assigned to her, and it isn't earned at all. When I brought this up in the main thread a while ago (which was pretty much my way of finding out if I was going to be able to bring it up in here without immediately getting jumped on by those of you who love to take personal offence from criticism of your favourite science fiction television writer) there were a couple of people in support of it and no disagreements so I know I'm not alone here.
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Jul 18, 2015 09:31
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Listen is what happens when you indulge in faux-sophistication waaay too much and end up sniffing your own farts. Faux-sophistication and thinking about itself out loud has never worked out for this show. Maybe Midnight, since it, was, in the end, a closed space horror, instead of play pretend with the structure.
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Jul 18, 2015 10:11
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I actually can't remember much about this one, in contrast to every other episode this season. Maybe it was good? 
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Jul 18, 2015 10:36
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I think this episode is the introduction and first appearance of the terrible loving sparkly shirt and so it should be judged on those merits alone
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Jul 18, 2015 11:25
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Espilae posted:I think this episode is the introduction and first appearance of the terrible loving sparkly shirt and so it should be judged on those merits alone It's actually a jumper full of holes, but you're right, it's appalling
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Jul 18, 2015 12:01
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That jumper is great, and so is Listen. I'd say that Listen is probably my favourite horror episode of Doctor Who, or at the very least it's tied with Blink.
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Jul 18, 2015 12:44
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Escobarbarian posted:Obviously I know it's not intended to piss on anything but regardless of the intentions it just to me is a quintessentially not done thing. Even if she was inspired by him to begin with she still did that thing. She still has that importance assigned to her, and it isn't earned at all. I understand this interpretation, but I like to think that it's more likely that this one speech given to him on a sleepless night isn't actually the root of everything the doctor is. In fact that's highly unlikely.
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Jul 18, 2015 13:23
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I think Clara's speech at the end was unnecessary but the scary bits were well done (the end of the universe was a million times better portrayed than in Utopia) and the ending reveal that there was no monster was pretty great. To my mind the most egregious sin the episode commits is the Doctor wondering about "perfect hiding" which is a very unscientific way to put it for a man who's so into learning he's covered his Tardis in blackboards and textbooks, and also ignores the many species of animal which are at least as good at hiding as a puffer fish is at defending itself, but then it's easy enough to think of that in a gap in the Doctor's logic since the whole episode is about him not quite thinking straight.
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Jul 18, 2015 13:24
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I see the "Moffatt is arrogant and wants his ideas all over the show" argument a lot and it annoys the piss out of me. He's the showrunner, he can make whatever jokes or alterations or commentary on the history of Doctor Who he likes. It's not a sacred text, drat. Anyway, Listen loving slays
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Jul 18, 2015 13:39
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I think Listen was my favorite episode of Series 8. Close contest between it and one of the later episodes. The thing I love the most is the ambiguity over what the hell was under the sheet. I like that the Doctor doesn't know everything and anything in the universe, and that there are still some things out there that are strange and unknown and terrible. A friend of mine was upset that we didn't get to see what was under the sheet, and that just kind of ticks me off because that's the entire point of the episode. I said as much in the other Who thread the other day, but one of Moffat's worst sins for me was when he went and showed what was in the Doctor's room in the God Complex. Not explaining every little thing can be good sometimes! It keeps people theorizing and wondering and lets everyone have their own personal interpretation! When you set poo poo like that in stone it just deflates it.
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Jul 18, 2015 13:58
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Barry Foster posted:It's actually a jumper full of holes, but you're right, it's appalling It's back for the new season too.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:32
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There was a paparazzi shot of Capaldi out walking wearing a hideous pair of trousers and I think I saw those trousers in the new series trailer as well.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:37
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The most important thing about Listen is we get to watch Clara and Danny have a disastrous date, which is just fantastic to watch  Also the Doctor creeping out the orphanage worker with the line about disappearing coffee... then we cut to a shot revealing the Doctor stole his coffee. 2house2fly posted:There was a paparazzi shot of Capaldi out walking wearing a hideous pair of trousers and I think I saw those trousers in the new series trailer as well. I'm gonna go ahead and assume they're William Hartnell style trousers and I can't have a problem with that.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:39
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armoredgorilla posted:He liked Listen, everyone. It's kind of a divisive episode. I like a lot of the ideas, but I feel the execution of them went poorly. There's great scenes that never really connect together to be a great episode. Some people like how it plays, though.
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Jul 18, 2015 15:12
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I honestly didn't realize Listen was a divisive episode, I love it so much and assumed everyone else did The sparkly shirt must die, though
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Jul 18, 2015 15:33
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Yeah I'm with this dude I had no idea anyone didn't like the main brunt of the ep.
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Jul 18, 2015 15:36
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Jerusalem posted:I'm gonna go ahead and assume they're William Hartnell style trousers and I can't have a problem with that. Troughton style, actually.
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Jul 18, 2015 15:55
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The jumper isn't so bad, it's the polka dot... blouse.
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Jul 18, 2015 16:05
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Ali Aces posted:I absolutely loved Listen the first time it aired. When I re-watched it now, knowing what was going to happen, the cracks really started to show. Some things just don't make any sense given the resolution, like the doctor writing on his own chalkboard or everyone for some reason having that dream. The whole pre-credits scene to me seemed to be more of a metaphoric microcosm of the whole episode. i didn't see it as something that actually occurred to the Doctor - rather it was a conversation he had in his own head, fuelled by his paranoia of fear and constant need for answers. The fact that it's all one big monologue to himself reinforces this I think. The dream thing I just put down to being a primal fear... Everyone has had a dream like that, or at least has had a similar paranoia when alone in a dark bedroom. I wouldn't read too much into the specifics of it personally. Also the jumper rules. It's his grandad outfit, and works much better than the magician's costume IMO
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Jul 18, 2015 17:40
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I feel like with Robots of Sherwood they were trying to two things that got dropped from the final script: 1. Have Robin Hood be a robot and thus proving the Doctor right in one aspect but that seemed to disappear towards the end. 2. Have the Doctor be part of the myth of Robin Hood, which kinda fizzled out.
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Jul 18, 2015 17:51
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The last man on Earth sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door...
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Jul 18, 2015 18:30
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Jul 18, 2015 18:36
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Listen is just great. e: also those posters they did for each episode were great too
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Jul 18, 2015 18:36
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Those posters where the best thing about a season that was just so-so. Listen was one of the better episodes although I feel like the idea of the episode demanded a better one than we got.
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Jul 18, 2015 18:39
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Jerusalem posted:
This was definitely the best part.
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Jul 18, 2015 18:40
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I'm considering watching X-Files for the first time, should i do that
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Jul 18, 2015 18:42
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Toxxupation posted:I'm considering watching X-Files for the first time, should i do that What about us made you think we were sci-fi nerds? You've been WATCHING Doctor Who right? What part of that is sci-fi? Also we don't dictate what you watch. If we did you'd have much better taste in media.
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Jul 18, 2015 18:45
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Toxxupation posted:I'm considering watching X-Files for the first time, should i do that Yes. Definitely.
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Jul 18, 2015 18:56
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Watch The X-Files after you're caught up on Doctor Who and hunger for more continuity-but-not-really, sci-fi-but-not-really adventures with a competent lady + weird dude team.
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Jul 18, 2015 18:57
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Season one is pretty good but can feel like they were still working things out. Season 2-4 or 5 are really good
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Jul 18, 2015 19:01
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Toxxupation posted:I'm considering watching X-Files for the first time, should i do that oh my god yes. I only ever got up to mid season four, but it's sooooooooo gooooood. I'd almost recommend just watching Jose Chung's From Outer Space, but that episode isn't as good without all the episodes that came before it. So, Toxx, after you finish s8 of Dr Who, MOST DEFINITELY WATCH X-FILES.
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Jul 18, 2015 19:07
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Squizzle posted:Watch The X-Files after you're caught up on Doctor Who and hunger for more continuity-but-not-really, sci-fi-but-not-really adventures with a competent lady + weird dude team. Exact;y this.
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Jul 18, 2015 19:37
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Toxxupation posted:I'm considering watching X-Files for the first time, should i do that that depends, can you get oxx back to help review
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Jul 18, 2015 19:40
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Soothing Vapors posted:that depends, can you get oxx back to help review I've never seen it. I can write reviews and pretend to be Oxx.  (Assuming Oxx hasn't seen it either)
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Jul 18, 2015 19:42
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Toxxupation posted:I'm considering watching X-Files for the first time, should i do that yes yes yes
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Jul 18, 2015 19:45
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Toxxupation posted:I'm considering watching X-Files for the first time, should i do that Yes. The X-Files is a lot like Doctor Who in that there's lots of bits of it that are just incredibly brilliant television. And there's a lot of bits that are complete dreck. And you have to pick through a lot of it to find out what is what.
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Jul 18, 2015 19:58
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