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I never thought the day would come where tanks and healers are getting nearly as much poo poo about their DPS as the actual DPS, especially in baby's first MMO for babies, but there it is I guess. While I haven't done progression raiding in this game, I've done it in a lot of other games, and being able to adapt is probably one of the most important skills. You, tank, are you worried about how low your health is going with an unfamiliar healer? Adjust your cooldowns, maybe change your gear until you feel more comfortable, then go up from there. Healer, your tank has as much or less HP as you do? Might need to not DPS as much, or even politely give the tank some advice. Leave if you have to, but not everyone reads the forums and they might (might) appreciate some advice. It's a matter of adapting to a situation, not sticking to a script to the detriment of everyone. So it's not optimal? Of course not but if it gets you through the content, it's all good, and maybe having a sloppy but succesful run can prompt people to move toward the optimal to make it easier on themselves. It won't happen for everyone but if one person learns and improves that's one less idiot in DF. Just my opinion, I play all three roles in this game and have had to do all of that poo poo at one time (including leaving) to make it work for me. The sloppy ones, while infuriating sometimes, have always ended with an "aha" moment for someone (sometimes me!) so I don't mind them as much as I probably should.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:24
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Took about a week off to avoid burnout someone quickly summarize the last thousand posts thanks
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Jul 19, 2015 19:28
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Blockhouse posted:Took about a week off to avoid burnout someone quickly summarize the last thousand posts thanks Tanks should wear str jewelry no wait vit no wait str no wait vit no wait str no wait vit no wait str no wait vit THE LOOT SYSTEM FOR ALEX NORMAL IS TERRIBLE tanks should wear vit jewelry no wait str no wait vit no wait str.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:34
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Begemot posted:Tanks should wear str jewelry no wait vit no wait str no wait vit no wait str no wait vit no wait str no wait vit THE LOOT SYSTEM FOR ALEX NORMAL IS TERRIBLE tanks should wear vit jewelry no wait str no wait vit no wait str. And I don't think a single one of these bastards actually answered my question on how much DPS STR jewelry actually adds so I can decide for my bloody self if it's a good amount or not and therefore worth using. Or if they DID answer it got buried in all the loving vitriol. 
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Jul 19, 2015 19:38
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i'm simultaneously sorry for causing this discussion and no less confused than when it started
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Jul 19, 2015 19:39
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Ciaphas posted:And I don't think a single one of these bastards actually answered my question on how much DPS STR jewelry actually adds so I can decide for my bloody self if it's a good amount or not and therefore worth using. The point of STR vs VIT isn't STR particularly adding anything major. It doesn't. It's more that any VIT you don't need is wasted points. Life you *didn't* lose doesn't gain anyone anything. Slightly more damage kills things slightly faster. So as long as you have enough VIT to survive expected damage and a gently caress up, you *should* be fine. You can then proceed to add more STR. In reality it doesn't really loving matter as long as all your left gear is up to date and you have the best weapon possible. Put either on your right side, assuming people know their poo poo it'll end up fine. Or wait for the next level of crafted gear and meld that poo poo all mix style, showing that you have more money than sense.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:43
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 HOT CRAFTING TIP - PRECISE TOUCH One hot tip to work Precise Touch into macros! Blacksmiths hate him! Anyway, I'm a poo poo bad baby crafter so I've been watching Mithrie Menethil's videos on youtube and he was talking about working Precise Touch into macros. When I first got Precise Touch, I didn't quite understand it: Precise Touch posted:CP: 18 The Inner Quite part was the part I didn't understand. Touches already increase Inner Quiet by one. The way Precise Touch works is it increases it by an additional one. So Precise Touch gives +2 Inner Quiet, which is huge. Problem is, only can be used on Good/Excellent, so that causes problems for working it into macros. Solution! When you're going to be doing a basic touch in a macro, put this in: quote:/ac "Precise Touch"
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Jul 19, 2015 19:44
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Ciaphas posted:And I don't think a single one of these bastards actually answered my question on how much DPS STR jewelry actually adds so I can decide for my bloody self if it's a good amount or not and therefore worth using. The problem is none of them know and the thread is just an echo chamber with get gud. No one wants to provide any math for it because the actual increase is minimal. From my own testing if I use right side STR gear and stay in Grit on my DRK I gain about 100-150 damage on my abilities. How this magically increases my dps by 100% I am not sure but I guess it is because I need to get gud. Ith fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 19:47
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ilifinicus posted:you're supposed to share the damage with the other tank until it splits, then you tank them in opposite directions so both tanks don't get hit by the stacks Usually I see groups share the slap damage with the entire party.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:47
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hobbesmaster posted:I'm not sure what to think about this until Belzac weighs in. Then you'll think the opposite?
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Jul 19, 2015 19:48
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Doresain posted:What? We're not talking about tank busters, so I don't know how you inferred this or why it is relevant. Why would your tank be going to critical hp outside of tank busters though unless you're just not healing at all. Like you keep talking about this theoretical fight where everyone is getting dunked on in terms of damage and there is literally not a current single fight in the game where that happens. I've healed every 60 fight in the game, and DF'd alex a poo poo ton of times. Even with DPS that are literally suicidal, there is no fight where the tank is taking so much damage that a) vit spec would make a difference and b) where i had to choose between saving the tank and the DPS. Like, give me a specific fight/situation where a tank having an extra 3-4k hp over a STR tank was the difference between them dying or someone else dying, because despite dozens of DF runs of alex and various runs of Rav and Bis I haven't run into this situation once in 3.0.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:52
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bonewitch posted:Why would your tank be going to critical hp outside of tank busters though unless you're just not healing at all. We get it. You are the best and Gods gift to FF14. However the random pubbies in the DF are not.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:54
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So as I understand it, each crafting class gained a new cross-class able skill at 54? Are any of them particularly worth shooting for? So far I've only gotten the ones that increase the effectiveness of a "Brand of x" skill which while helpful, seems particularly situational.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:55
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Tenik posted:Actually, this is exactly what you should do. Regen/fairy healing is much more mp efficient, but you lose out on the time efficiency of direct healing. Since DPS shouldn't be taking damage very often, you can let them slowly get back up to full health over 20 seconds instead spamming cure on them. Plus, that gives them enough time to remember that they have second wind or bloodbath, which means you can give even less of a poo poo about them. Ummm no. Fairy healing, yes. Regen only if they need the full (well more like at least 75% or so) potency which is unlikely. Plus no chance to proc Freecure. AST's proc isn't as good but the efficiency is also even worse. Unsmart fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 19:57
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Ith posted:The problem is none of them know and the thread is just an echo chamber with get gud. No one wants to provide any math for it because the actual increase is minimal. On PLD in sword oath: Full VIT: http://puu.sh/j56Pw/6953146317.png Full STR: http://puu.sh/j56Qy/9bc282a937.png I hosed up my timing twice by being distracted in the STR one. 180 DPS difference is significant. Now shut the gently caress up you idiot.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:58
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bonewitch posted:Like, give me a specific fight/situation where a tank having an extra 3-4k hp over a STR tank was the difference between them dying or someone else dying, because despite dozens of DF runs of alex and various runs of Rav and Bis I haven't run into this situation once in 3.0. Ravana EX is the best example, but also just in general if you have the dps otherwise for things like 2x Jagd Doll or Solo Tank final phase A3 (w/ other tank DPSing 100% in STR, naturally). If your group has the DPS, and switching from Vit gear to Str gear doesn't otherwise influence the fight (one less immunity phase, better cooldown timings), vit gear is not a big deal. If you have some kind of material gain from it, you should absolutely be using STR gear, but a lot of the bitching about people using VIT gear is at times where it makes no practical difference and/or is marginally helpful.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:59
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TooManyUzukis posted:On PLD in sword oath: Thanks! Glad someone bothered, even if you had to end it with another insult goddamn people it isn't hard to be civil
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Jul 19, 2015 20:01
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fount of knowledge posted:So as I understand it, each crafting class gained a new cross-class able skill at 54? Are any of them particularly worth shooting for? So far I've only gotten the ones that increase the effectiveness of a "Brand of x" skill which while helpful, seems particularly situational. Cul's 54 one, Muscle Memory, is pretty great for difficult recipes, while the others are...less useful. Goldsmith's one desperately tries to make flawless synthesis a relevant and useful skill and fails miserably. The rest are just name of whatever.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:04
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Ciaphas posted:Thanks! Glad someone bothered, even if you had to end it with another insult goddamn people it isn't hard to be civil Sorry, I get annoyed when people give others bad advice and act snooty about it. The real answer is to find the right balance for your group, but remember that extraneous VIT should removed whenever possible. I personally run with a mix.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:05
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Ith posted:We get it. You are the best and Gods gift to FF14. However the random pubbies in the DF are not. We'll I'm certainly better at posting then you. Niton posted:Ravana EX is the best example, but also just in general if you have the dps otherwise for things like 2x Jagd Doll or Solo Tank final phase A3 (w/ other tank DPSing 100% in STR, naturally). If your group has the DPS, and switching from Vit gear to Str gear doesn't otherwise influence the fight (one less immunity phase, better cooldown timings), vit gear is not a big deal. Final phase rav ex is probably the closest to requiring it, though if you pre-emptively shield and get buffs up for that phase it doesn't hurt *that* much. This is assuming a good group that can coordinate buffs though, since Rav isn't DF'able. I guess my question here is: if vit or str gear isn't going to massively influence the fight, why not go str? An extra 150-200 dps can shave 30s to a minute off a fight depending on the length.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:05
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This reminds me of the great debate of FFXI NINs about evasion vsSTR stacking. STR ninjas were so much better because they knew how to use their abilities. This may be terrible advice, but why not do what we did in FFXI and carry multiple gear sets/items or eat food/pots as poo poo is situational?
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Jul 19, 2015 20:05
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Phlogistic posted:Cul's 54 one, Muscle Memory, is pretty great for difficult recipes, while the others are...less useful. Goldsmith's one desperately tries to make flawless synthesis a relevant and useful skill and fails miserably. The rest are just name of whatever. Name increases Brand's efficiency even on unaspected crafts. It's actually probably one of the best new additions along with Precise touch. Try it out.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:06
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Phlogistic posted:Cul's 54 one, Muscle Memory, is pretty great for difficult recipes, while the others are...less useful. Goldsmith's one desperately tries to make flawless synthesis a relevant and useful skill and fails miserably. The rest are just name of whatever. Maker's Mark is pretty good I dunno what you're talking about.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:10
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Phlogistic posted:Cul's 54 one, Muscle Memory, is pretty great for difficult recipes, while the others are...less useful. Goldsmith's one desperately tries to make flawless synthesis a relevant and useful skill and fails miserably. The rest are just name of whatever. The GSM one is good, but it requires two cross-class slots to use on another class, which is too many. I lead with it 100% of the time on GSM.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:10
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bonewitch posted:I guess my question here is: if vit or str gear isn't going to massively influence the fight, why not go str? An extra 150-200 dps can shave 30s to a minute off a fight depending on the length. Part of the reason I lean toward liking VIT tanks is that I play Scholar, which can easily convert GCDs & mana not spent on healing into damage. A tank with some (or all) vit might increase my DPS uptime significantly, reducing the total effect of the vit -> str conversion. It's still a DPS gain, but against spikier damage it's a lot more marginal if I have to go from full-on DPS to babysitting you for you to get that extra damage. In the absence of DPSing healers, I think STR is a safe default for anything outside of Savage content, but there are reasons why Vit might be better - especially if you find yourself in your tank stance.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:12
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ghostinmyshell posted:This reminds me of the great debate of FFXI NINs about evasion vsSTR stacking. STR ninjas were so much better because they knew how to use their abilities. This may be terrible advice, but why not do what we did in FFXI and carry multiple gear sets/items or eat food/pots as poo poo is situational? Because that doesn't optimize gil/law expenditure and everyone should just deal with my God given decisions and GIT GUD E: Forgot the token end post insult that is all the rage with FFGoons: You stupid retarded gently caress gently caress retard.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:12
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The un-crossclassability is the biggest issue, but also using maker's mark means painfully wasting any good procs you'd get in those first few turns. 
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Jul 19, 2015 20:13
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You don't waste them you convert it to cp to start at full cp, full dura, with inner quite up and with cz ticking down while putting on a bit of progress.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:19
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Eej posted:Maker's Mark is pretty good I dunno what you're talking about. I unironically agree. It's the only Whiskey I bother keeping around on hand.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:19
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Niton posted:Part of the reason I lean toward liking VIT tanks is that I play Scholar, which can easily convert GCDs & mana not spent on healing into damage. A tank with some (or all) vit might increase my DPS uptime significantly, reducing the total effect of the vit -> str conversion. It's still a DPS gain, but against spikier damage it's a lot more marginal if I have to go from full-on DPS to babysitting you for you to get that extra damage. I'm also a SCH, and while its not my main, I probably play it more than my bard. A tank thats vit spec doesn't really increase your DPS because ultimately both tanks will take the same amount of damage. You still have to heal x damage that they took, the only difference is that you have to switch out of cleric a gcd early (and conversely, you can go back in a GCD earlier). SCH dps is mostly dots anyway, missing a GCD or two of ruin spam won't make or break your DPS.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:21
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On the topic of SCH DPS, is Broil spam worth it or is it too mana intensive outside of burst situations. I always feel like I'm gonna run out of mana when I use it as filler but that sweet, sweet damage 
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Jul 19, 2015 20:23
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bonewitch posted:Final phase rav ex is probably the closest to requiring it, though if you pre-emptively shield and get buffs up for that phase it doesn't hurt *that* much. This is assuming a good group that can coordinate buffs though, since Rav isn't DF'able. You don't use VIT for knowns, you use it for unknowns. If I know the fight, know the healers will be on my rear end if my HP drops rapidly while in STR gear, and know the DPS aren't going to do anything stupid to distract the healers, then I'm going to wear STR gear. When I wear VIT gear, it's because I know there will be things that pop up during the fight that might mess someone up and might lead to my death which will rapidly lead to other people's deaths. I'd rather live and do bad dps, rather than die and wipe. And don't get me wrong, sometimes this is poo poo you feel out. You're used to doing a fight with VIT gear on, slap on the STR stuff to put out higher damage, whoopsie that was a bad idea the healers aren't that solid on this fight or it's hard on them or whatever. -I'd say VIT gear isn't a good idea in Bismarck EX, but it helps pad you during the transition phase (those snakes actually hit pretty fuckin hard). -It's a good idea in Ravana EX if your offtank occasionally makes mistakes and forgets to stack on you for cleaves (though you can also just use cooldowns to get through them). -VIT gear is a bad idea for A1. Boss doesn't hit that hard, not enough mechanics to gently caress people up. -VIT gear is useful in A2. Having one tank on both Jagd Dolls in the last wave of the fight: you're gonna want every HP you can get. -VIT gear is useful when learning A3, but honestly things go fine with STR. -Wear VIT for A4. There's a lot of damage going out, it's not all on you, and it's not difficult to make mistakes during this fight. Also, ~4k hp lets you eat an extra ball as a tank or offtank without needing a heal.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:24
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bonewitch posted:On the topic of SCH DPS, is Broil spam worth it or is it too mana intensive outside of burst situations. I always feel like I'm gonna run out of mana when I use it as filler but that sweet, sweet damage Spam more drain/aetherflow. If you have time for broil, you probably aren't using all your aetherflow stacks on heals either 
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Jul 19, 2015 20:25
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Willias posted:You don't use VIT for knowns, you use it for unknowns. If I know the fight, know the healers will be on my rear end if my HP drops rapidly while in STR gear, and know the DPS aren't going to do anything stupid to distract the healers, then I'm going to wear STR gear. When I wear VIT gear, it's because I know there will be things that pop up during the fight that might mess someone up and might lead to my death which will rapidly lead to other people's deaths. I'd rather live and do bad dps, rather than die and wipe. How often do you actually go into a fight without knowing it though? Unless you're chasing world first, you'll generally have seen a guide that details approximately how much things are going to hurt. Even if you are doing things blind or trying for world first, you can run once in VIT, see how much breathing room you have, then drop vit as necessary after the first run. If you're learning a fight, having significantly more hp than what is required will generally not be a make or break scenario since wipes are typically mechanic failures or missed cooldowns. Truga posted:Spam more drain/aetherflow. I do drain quite often, but I also like having a lustrate sitting around in case a tank or DPS does something dumb and I probably use Indomitability too often.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:31
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ilifinicus posted:you're supposed to share the damage with the other tank until it splits, then you tank them in opposite directions so both tanks don't get hit by the stacks You can share single hand with the entire party ala Shiva sword until the split. It makes it easier to heal through if you want to pump out more Cleric Stance DPS.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:32
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bonewitch posted:I'm also a SCH, and while its not my main, I probably play it more than my bard. A tank thats vit spec doesn't really increase your DPS because ultimately both tanks will take the same amount of damage. You still have to heal x damage that they took, the only difference is that you have to switch out of cleric a gcd early (and conversely, you can go back in a GCD earlier). SCH dps is mostly dots anyway, missing a GCD or two of ruin spam won't make or break your DPS. It does directly influence what sort of damage spikes I can leave to the (WHM/AST/Faerie), though. It might add up to only be 1 or 2 GCDs a minute, but you're right that it's not a huge amount. You should be also be using Broil in every GCD possible - only use Ruin (1) if things went incredibly wrong but you still need to dps. Broil is good enough (+110 potency per cast) that it's actively influencing how I gear up. Niton fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 20:34
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Niton posted:It does directly influence what sort of damage spikes I can leave to the (WHM/AST/Faerie), though. It might add up to only be 1 or 2 GCDs a minute, but you're right that it's not a huge amount. You should be also be using Broil in every GCD possible - only use Ruin (1) if things went incredibly wrong but you still need to dps. Fair enough. Ideally you'll be able to just adlo pre-spike and then let the WHM heal them up, but I know thats not always possible. I personally think the 20% increased DPS from the tank is worth losing a GCD or two though.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:37
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I'm a pretty terrible SCH, and often end up DPSing much less than I should because I keep healing poo poo I could probably leave to the other healer. On the other hand, the other healer in the DF is often so, so terrible, getting it out of my system feels impossible.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:44
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bonewitch posted:Fair enough. Ideally you'll be able to just adlo pre-spike and then let the WHM heal them up, but I know thats not always possible. I personally think the 20% increased DPS from the tank is worth losing a GCD or two though. Oh, no, it is - it's just that depending on encounter specifics, it might be so marginal that it's barely worth removing the safety net. If it's not making a big difference, your group is best served simply doing what makes them the most comfortable, even if it's not 100% optimal. Optimal theorycrafting is supposed to lead to the highest raid dps, but it never really seems to work out like that unless you're The Best Of The Best. Niton fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 20:49
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bonewitch posted:How often do you actually go into a fight without knowing it though? Unless you're chasing world first, you'll generally have seen a guide that details approximately how much things are going to hurt. Even if you are doing things blind or trying for world first, you can run once in VIT, see how much breathing room you have, then drop vit as necessary after the first run. If you're learning a fight, having significantly more hp than what is required will generally not be a make or break scenario since wipes are typically mechanic failures or missed cooldowns. yes, because after reading a guide and watching a video on youtube, i know exactly how every mechanic is going to play out and how every single one of my party members is going to react to every single mechanic oh, and i know every single time a boss is going to get a lucky string of crits on me Do you play this game with robots or something? Better yet, are you a robot? Because when playing with normal ol human beings mistakes happen, and I've seen some pretty stupid kills come together by having the right people barely survive nasty mechanics.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:58
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