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I guess if it puts your minds at ease, the situation as far as those mystery costs is that I haven't paid utilities in years. My wife and I have been living with her family. Her family is well-off enough that they're paying the bills they've been paying for us for 2 months. During that time we'll get an actual view of how much we'll be expecting to pay in variable costs like that, at least ballpark. Mortgage is about 750 a month.
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Jul 17, 2015 20:25
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Knyteguy posted:So there's two popular debt repayment schemes, 1) Avalanche where you pay off your highest interest debt first, and 2) Snowball where you pay off your smallest debts first. Why not pay off the debt that is costing you the most money every month first? If you have 75% APR on a $1 debt, who cares about that if you're bleeding $200/mo on a 10% car loan? The two methods you listed are good in different ways. 1. Paying off the highest interest debt first is mathematically the best way to do it 2. Paying off the smallest debts first is psychologically helpful for a lot of people, because it makes things more manageable and you make what seems like a lot of progress (less bills per month, less accounts to manage) The way you described accomplishes neither of those and is kind of a weird way to think about it. In your example, you would pay off your mortgage at all costs while ignoring 20k of revolving credit card debt at 30% interest.
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Jul 17, 2015 20:26
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signalnoise posted:I guess if it puts your minds at ease, the situation as far as those mystery costs is that I haven't paid utilities in years. My wife and I have been living with her family. Her family is well-off enough that they're paying the bills they've been paying for us for 2 months. During that time we'll get an actual view of how much we'll be expecting to pay in variable costs like that, at least ballpark. Mortgage is about 750 a month.  I don't want to be overly negative, but if you've managed to rack up that much CC debt while someone else has been paying (most of?) your bills for you, you may need your own thread. Yeah, some people may make fun of you (especially if you try to justify ongoing bad financial decisions), but on the other hand, you'll get a ton of detailed and practical advice. Which it sounds like you really, really need. Cicero fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jul 17, 2015 |
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Jul 17, 2015 20:29
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Cicero posted:
Yeah step one is figuring out how the gently caress we even managed to do that. I think it was something like paying for hotels and rental cars with CCs and not paying them down when I got the reimbursement.
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Jul 17, 2015 20:34
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signalnoise posted:Yeah step one is figuring out how the gently caress we even managed to do that. I think it was something like paying for hotels and rental cars with CCs and not paying them down when I got the reimbursement. Aggregators/semi budgetors for that include: mint.com personalcapital.com But really, check out the budgeting thread.
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Jul 17, 2015 20:41
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signalnoise posted:At what point would be be acceptable to remove funds from a 401k to pay off some high balance credit cards? I'd rather declare bankruptcy.
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Jul 17, 2015 20:45
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Yeah it wouldn't shock me if a bankruptcy was a good idea but we'd need more information to know for sure.
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Jul 17, 2015 21:01
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:I'd rather declare bankruptcy. signalnoise posted:Yeah step one is figuring out how the gently caress we even managed to do that. In the meantime, please do be careful and set a strict CASH budget for yourself and your wife when it comes to house stuff. Decorating a home and fixing it up can lead you into thousands more in debt in a heartbeat, and it's easy to get caught up in the "new home" craze.
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Jul 17, 2015 21:04
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SeaWolf posted:You know it's possible to search and find estimates for how much power a family of X size uses, how much power a house of X size uses, and then you can even refine that further and find out what the average family in a house similiar to yours in the town your house is in pays for power. Having a ballpark estimate even if it's a little off is better than just shrugging your shoulders and saying "It is a mystery to me!" Our local utility company will give you the 6 month average utility bill for any address in the city, regardless if you are the owner/renter or not. We called about any house we planed to rent and before we bought our house.
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Jul 17, 2015 21:17
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Cicero posted:Yeah, some people may make fun of you (especially if you try to justify ongoing bad financial decisions), but on the other hand, you'll get a ton of detailed and practical advice. Which it sounds like you really, really need. To add to that, your (financial) future is more important and a bigger deal than your ego. You've really got to be able to swallow your pride to deal with this level of debt, because a lot of people's resistance to change is wrapped up in pride and not sound decision making. People in this subforum don't make fun of you because they're mean people looking for kicks (check FYAD for that  ) but because you probably deserve it in some way. Make a thread, be open, and listen to the advice because at the current rate, you seem to be on the way to the guy from the commercial who's all "My life is great! How did I do it? I'm in debt up to my eyeballs. ...help me..."
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Jul 17, 2015 21:32
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moana posted:In the meantime, please do be careful and set a strict CASH budget for yourself and your wife when it comes to house stuff. Decorating a home and fixing it up can lead you into thousands more in debt in a heartbeat, and it's easy to get caught up in the "new home" craze. Oh yes. Death by a thousand trips to Target. Even if you put off buying big ticket items like furniture, things like the following will end in $50-200 shopping trips. "I only have one shower curtain and two towels, and now I have two bathrooms" "I need to buy something that I can trim my trees with so my nazi HOA doesn't fine me $40" "I am not a teenage girl, so I don't want this bedroom to remain in a pink and lime green paint scheme. Also, I have no painting supplies" "I should rent a carpet steamer to get these stains and interesting smells out of the carpet" "It would be nice if the deadbolt in the garage took the same key as the front door" "My wife hates this 90's brass & glass light fixture in the hallway"
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Jul 17, 2015 22:05
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signalnoise posted:Yeah step one is figuring out how the gently caress we even managed to do that. I think it was something like paying for hotels and rental cars with CCs and not paying them down when I got the reimbursement.
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Jul 17, 2015 22:08
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SmuglyDismissed posted:Our local utility company will give you the 6 month average utility bill for any address in the city, regardless if you are the owner/renter or not. We called about any house we planed to rent and before we bought our house. MLGW will do that? Awesome!
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Jul 18, 2015 16:36
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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3731821
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Jul 18, 2015 23:13
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I've got a situation that I've been kicking about with my wife for the past few weeks or so. I don't think it deserves its own thread but wanted to get some outside perspective. The Situation My wife and I are in our late 20s, no kids but have a dog. After taxes our monthly income is about $10,200. Not included in this total is a small bonus she gets each year and I get a guaranteed $5,600 plus potentially $22,000 depending on job performance. We both contribute 10% of our pay to a 401k each pay period plus each of our company's match. I also contribute a further $400 to my savings account each month. My wife contributes $400 to a "next car account" each month since hers is paid off, and she also puts $560/mo into a "house cash" fund which we use to pay for unexpected house expenses or improvements. This money is just kept in a safe in our house so it basically doesn't exist to us until we need it, for example we used $2,500 to build a fence for our dog. Our total monthly expenses are $7,100. The biggest line items on this are our $1,100 mortgage, $1,000 for eating out (we plan to reduce this), and then we each have $1,200, so $2,400 total, for miscellaneous expenses like shopping or eating out by ourselves. This is a big overestimate but gives us some cushion. Our monthly net income less the expenses and savings outlined above gives us a remainder of about $1,750 each month that doesn't go towards anything. My wife wants to buy a condo and then rent it out. Real estate is booming in our city and the area we are looking in is right next to 3 universities. The estimated mortgage would be between $1,200 and $1,400 a month, including HOA fee. Our goal would just be to break even and build equity. Other information We currently have about $35k in our saving account plus another $10-15k in investments and cash, and I keep about $5-7k in my checking and she keeps about $3k. We have about $70k in our 401ks. Our only debt is our house, my car, and my wife has about $13k in student loans that should be paid off at the end of next year. She made a balance sheet that estimates our net worth around $107k. We plan to put down only about $10-15k for the purchase. She also did some analysis on the 50-20-30 rule that says 50% of your income should go to essentials, 20 to future, and 30 to fun. Currently 25% of our income goes to essentials, 28% to future, and 21% to fun. Any thoughts or things we haven't considered? We do currently own our own house so I know unexpected expenses come up. I guess my real concern is we can live comfortably right now with no money issues. There's no reason to stretch ourselves thin for the sake of investment property. the chief v2 fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 15:42
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I don't understand why you wouldn't kill that student loan debt as soon as possible. You have several ways to do this: -Pay it off immediately with $13,000 from your $35,000 savings account -Throw $5,000 at it immediately and pay $1,600 a month to be done by the end of this year -Take nothing out of savings and pay $1,750 a month to by March 2016 All that is without even touching the next car account, the monthly savings contribution, the house cash fund, and the $3,400 (  ) in monthly shopping and dining.e: actually for those last two options you'll pay it off even quicker than I calculated if you add in whatever you're already paying per month e2: I guess more directly to your question, I also question the wisdom of buying an investment property when you two don't appear to be maximizing your contributions to tax advantaged retirement accounts (I'm making an assumption that you two haven't been maxing your 401K contributions based on your age and the account balance, and you don't mention a Roth or traditional IRA) pig slut lisa fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 16:38
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I question the wisdom of anyone buying a rental condo while their thought process is running alone lines like "break even and build equity". That's gibberish. What do you actually mean? Renting out a condo is a business proposition, and a risky one at that. There's a shitload of differences compared to owning your own house. Have you run the numbers? Because you could start there. The amount of the mortgage and HOA fees is a very small part of the picture. The other thing you could do is have a read in the rental thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3548312 Oh, and I completely agree about the student loans. Pay that off before you start on other financial adventures. The 50-20-30 thing is not a rule, it's somebody's talking point from somewhere. I don't even think it's a helpful guideline for a couple pulling down a solid six figures. You're doing pretty ok with "essentials" at 25% and should probably keep it there unless you like being conspicuously wealthy.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:33
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Yeah the student loans are split about evenly between two different lenders, one interest bearing and one not. I think we're gonna go ahead and just pay off the one that's interest bearing before doing anything. Longer term this is an investment and it would hopefully turn into an airbnb type thing. My wife's best friend has a side business which is basically juat several properties she rents out this way and nets about $50k/yr. I only brought up the break even point and the 1,700/mo just to say that worst case scenario, we should be able to cover everything even with no tenants. We could increase our contributions to retirement sure, I think putting in 20% combined is still good though. But like I said I want to make sure we don't needlessly stretch ourselves thin. It's just exploratory at this point and we may just set certain financial goals we need to achieve first, like saving towards a separate down payment for this so we don't actually take anything from savings at all. Really we just don't want to be sitting on 100k in cash for no reason, we want to make sure we're maximizing our assets. And rather than invest in financial markets we think this could perhaps turn into a side business. the chief v2 fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 19:33
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the chief v2 posted:... This is a dangerous and misleading way of thinking. If you were in a group marriage with 10 members and each person was putting 10% of their gross into a 401(k), would you be saving 100%? No. If you're both saving 10%, you're saving 10% overall. The general recommendation I've seen is 15% (this can include employer match and IRA). If I were you, I'd get to that 15% retirements savings and pay off the student loan and car debt. Once I was down to mortgage-only, I'd consider other investment options, but would probably choose to max any tax-advantaged options first.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:09
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Just to echo everyone else: you should be maxing tax-advantaged retirement accounts before investing in anything else. IRA/Roth IRA/401k (to the contribution limit, not just the matching limit).
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Jul 19, 2015 22:22
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the chief v2 posted:
I think figuring out how to sum to 100 is a bigger priority than a speculative real estate venture
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Jul 19, 2015 23:57
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Yeah money that isn't actively allocated to an expense bucket was excluded but still considered as a percent of income. Anyway thanks to those with actual advice as it basically reaffirmed my thoughts.
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Jul 20, 2015 00:40
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El_Elegante posted:I think figuring out how to sum to 100 is a bigger priority than a speculative real estate venture 
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Jul 20, 2015 01:18
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One thing that I am noticing here is that you are looking at a rental property like it is a regular investment vehicle, where you put in some money and sit on your thumbs and then you get money from it. A rental property is more like a second job. If everything goes smoothly then sure, it might not be a ton of work, but you should consider that it might not go smoothly at first or for long periods of time. You are going to have to advertise ad screen tenants. You can going to have to respond to tenant complaints and handle repairs. Like if they call you on Saturday night saying the water stopped working, you need to spend your weekend dealing with that, one way or another. You are also going to be ultimately responsible to the HOA, and have to deal with any issues when your tenants run afoul of their regulations by smoking on the balcony or hanging a flag in their window or whatever inane poo poo trips someone up. Are you happy doing this? Is your wife going to be happy doing it? Because the only way you don't have to is if you hire a property manager, who will take a big cut of your money for the work. You' re also talking about 'breaking even' on this. Realize that in order to 'break even' on a rental, you do not need to just meet your payments, you need to be collecting enough additional income every month to pay for repairs and maintenance to the unit, to cover months it is empty between tenants, and to build up money to cope when a lovely tenant trashes the place. If you just charge to cover your payments you are going to be losing money.
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Jul 20, 2015 14:52
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My mom has seven rental houses and she spends about 35 hours a week keeping on top of late rent from tenants, landscaping (Texas suburbs are expected to maintain amazing lawns at all times), and yeah, broken ac units in the summer, heaters in the winter, clogged pipes, leaks, creaks etc etc, taxes, mortgage payments, insurance, foundation issues blah blah blah. She used to work five days a week at an office and pretty much had an unofficial full time handyman to deal with problems during the week and basically ate up all day Saturday and a big chunk of Sunday. Her and my dad each had five rentals before I was born and I'm over 30 now so it's not like she's new at this and just slow at it. It's just time consuming if you don't want to a slum lord. Obviously you can scale that down a bit for your only rental home but yeah unless you hand it off to a property management company (which eats in to almost all your profits) is a big time sink. It depends on the market but I don't think my family has ever expected to pull a profit in the first ten years, it's an investment and if you're breaking even after taxes, fantastic. After ten years the economy inflation (I.e. a lower mortgage payment relative to the rent you get) outstrips the rate of repairs and it starts making money.
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Jul 20, 2015 15:15
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I appreciate the advice. The end goal is for this to be a side business, not just a hobby, and then perhaps full time for my wife if we have kids, though it wouldn't make as much money as her current job. But I think it's apparent that we probably aren't in a position to start this process yet, which is why I was asking outside opinion. Our plan will most likely be to pay off her student debt this week and then setup a dedicated saving plan towards a second down payment, which will prevent us from using regular savings. I'll also take that time to look more into the rental business so we can estimate costs related to having tenants, not just normal house wear and tear.
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Jul 20, 2015 15:51
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Whats the prevailing opinion on the mix of traditional vs Roth retirement savings? Currently I'm 100% Roth. Having my IRA be 100% Roth was a no brainer when I didn't have access to a Roth 401k, but now that I do I'm wondering I shouldn't do something closer to 50-50.
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Jul 20, 2015 17:21
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Xenoborg posted:Whats the prevailing opinion on the mix of traditional vs Roth retirement savings? Currently I'm 100% Roth. Having my IRA be 100% Roth was a no brainer when I didn't have access to a Roth 401k, but now that I do I'm wondering I shouldn't do something closer to 50-50. *Current Income *Current tax policy *Estimated post-retirement income *Estimated post-retirement tax policy The more money you make now (i.e. the higher your tax rate), the more benefit you see from a traditional 401k/IRA. The less money you make now (i.e. the lower your tax rate) the more benefit you're likely to see from a Roth IRA. But if you think you're currently living in a Communist hellscape, and post-retirement we'll have converted to a free-market Libertarian utopia, you probably want to weight things towards traditional IRA/401k. Nobody's crystal ball is perfect, but I'm inclined to say the tax structure is likely to get less forgiving in the future, especially if you're at the upper end of it, so Roth is probably the way to go. That can be a significant hit right now, though.
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Jul 20, 2015 19:47
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Also if you make over like 70k (you'll have to lookup the limits, they vary based on circumstances) you don't get a tax deduction for a traditional IRA, which makes the Roth (or backdoor) kind of a no-brainer.
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Jul 20, 2015 20:58
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Made a post about my plan in the long term thread.
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Jul 20, 2015 21:16
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Guinness posted:Also if you make over like 70k (you'll have to lookup the limits, they vary based on circumstances) you don't get a tax deduction for a traditional IRA, which makes the Roth (or backdoor) kind of a no-brainer. I learned this the hard way a few years ago after contributing to a traditional IRA instead of a Roth. When I did my taxes it made zero difference, so I did what you said and did a backdoor conversion to my Roth IRA instead and have been contributing to that instead ever since. Here is the IRS link for 2015 limits: http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans...nt-Plan-at-Work
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Jul 21, 2015 13:14
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This is just a check-in to see how me and my wife are doing retirement wise in other's opinions. We are both 30, and just had a kid 4 months ago. I know I am in really good shape compared to most people, but I just want another viewpoint to see if our savings rate is too low. Debts: 10k student loan 60k mortgage (will be paid off 5 years at most) No car loan (own two cars outright) no CC debt Savings: 186k in 401k 20k in Roth IRA 10k emergency fund 13k other savings (budgeted for short and long term things) Salary: 200k a year pre-tax So we have basically 206k in retirement accounts at age 30. We have only really been doing the full 401k (17k+8.5k matched by work), we may be able to max out Roth this year. This is certainly more than most people my age tend to have, but it is barely 10% of total salary a year we save. We have only started budgeting the past 6 months and that helps with monitoring things, and most of our big expenses have been to the house for fixing major issues (we are basically done with this and have no interest in more cosmetic remodeling). We also do have occasional vacations, eat out, and donate lots to charity, which is where a lot of our surplus has gone. I'm not going to post my whole budget because I am fine with the shape it is in right now, I just want to know if I'm being reasonable with the relatively low savings rate I have right now. If I continue keeping my fixed costs low, am I doing ok?
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Jul 21, 2015 15:47
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Chin Strap posted:This is just a check-in to see how me and my wife are doing retirement wise in other's opinions. We are both 30, and just had a kid 4 months ago. I know I am in really good shape compared to most people, but I just want another viewpoint to see if our savings rate is too low.  basically I'm very jealous that you have this ridiculous income and an insane 401k match on what seems like one income. You could be doing a lot better, but you're doing fine. I have a personal financial forecasting app that I'm developing, and I dropped your numbers into it and even without increasing future 401k/Roth contributions (which you will) and with only putting 100 into savings per month, then putting the payment for the mortgage/student loan into savings when it's paid off, I see assets of $1.6 million at 40, and assets of 4 million at age 50...7 million at age 57. You would basically retire like a king at an early age even if you did nothing else.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:07
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You're looking great, and the main reason to bump up your savings would be if you want to retire early. Does your wife work? It sounded like you were maxing retirement just for you. She might want to consider getting a self-employment gig to be able to stuff some extra savings in without paying any taxes on it. The other thing to consider is that you're in the habit of spending most of your income - if there's even the slightest possibility of losing your job, you don't have a big safety net. 10k "emergency" money wouldn't last you a month at your spending rate.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:11
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Yeah I know we're lucky, which is why I felt silly about even posting. It really is that feeling of "I could be doing a lot better". Yes this is one income, my wife does lots of volunteer work (plus it means no daycare). You are right about spending, moana, and I will take that into account. We have strived hard to make sure we aren't taking on debt for any of it though, so our fixed costs are rather low. We have just been saving up and then spending large chunks to get our house into shape, and we are finally starting to see the light there. Ok, sorry for the silly post, it just has nagged at me some. We definitely could tighten our game up and maybe we should.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:20
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Chin Strap posted:This is just a check-in to see how me and my wife are doing retirement wise in other's opinions. We are both 30, and just had a kid 4 months ago. I know I am in really good shape compared to most people, but I just want another viewpoint to see if our savings rate is too low. Once you're hitting your limits on your tax-advantaged retirement accounts, you may want to look into setting up a 529 account for the kid.
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Jul 21, 2015 17:40
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I have a medical bill that caught me off guard. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask. Possibly Important context: - I see an endocrinologist once a year to correct a hormonal problem. For insurance purposes, this is called "hypothyroidism -- unspecified." In addition to the yearly bloodwork that I take for my PCP (for regular annual check-up things like liver enzymes, cholesterol, blood pressure, etc), the endocrinologist requests his own yearly bloodwork for hormones related to my condition. - Last October, I had really bad liver enzyme results. This was surprising because I very rarely drink; my main vice is probably pot edibles. My PCP ordered follow up tests so she could determine the cause, and all of the follow-up tests came back perfectly normal. In case it could be related to the hormonal problem, I had the liver labs (both the bad and good ones) sent to my endocrinologist. - I admitted to my PCP and my endocrinologist that I had been eating pot brownies around the time I got the abnormal liver results, and I had stopped eating pot brownies before the follow up tests. They both think that my liver results could have been due to the pot brownies, since THC is metabolized in the liver and I was eating them on a nightly basis to fall asleep. Anyway, I got the Quest Diagnostics bill for my usual endocrinologist bloodwork, with a surprise: my endocrinologist apparently ordered a drug screen in February along with thyroid results, and insurance covered everything on the test except for the drug screen. A drug screen is not eligible to be covered for a hypothyroidism diagnosis. This is what I understand: - Quest Diagnostics' invoice says I owe them $642 for the cost of the drug screen - My insurance company BCBS gave me an EOB which said two things: BCBS does not cover the cost of the drug screen for a "hypothyroidism -- unspecified" diagnosis, and also that there is zero patient responsibility due to an agreement with the provider. - I called BCBS to see what exactly I need to do since the Quest bill and the EOB were telling me different things. The representative finally said that even though the EOB says there is zero patient responsibility, I actually do owe the provider $642 for the drug screen since it's not covered for the diagnosis. My understanding is that I need to find out why the drug screen was requested and what diagnosis it should be filed under. I have taken these next steps: - I called my doctor to ask if the drug screen was requested for hypothyroidism, or for some different diagnosis. It seems like my options are: - See what diagnosis the doctor advises me to file this under (since it doesn't seem to be related to hypothyroidism) and call Quest Diagnostics to have them rebill under the proper diagnosis. Possible diagnoses could be: something related to my liver enzymes, or the depression diagnosis that I noted. - If there is no diagnosis thaat could work, possibly file an appeal with the insurance company with my doctor's help? - Just paying the bill. I'm kind of tempted to just pay it now so it's off my back, but if it's a simple paperwork error, I'm willing to spend a few hours on the phone to save roughly six hundred dollars. I'm worried that since my insurance is through my employer, that information about the drug screen/use could potentially make it to my company's HR. This makes me think I should just pay for the drug screen so it goes away instead of making noise about it (as a note, the drug screen came back negative for everything). I have the feeling that this couldn't happen though--I have talked about drug issues to my mental health providers, and none of that has ever leaked over... legsarerequired fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 20:18
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legsarerequired posted:I'm worried that since my insurance is through my employer, that information about the drug screen/use could potentially make it to my company's HR. This makes me think I should just pay for the drug screen so it goes away instead of making noise about it (as a note, the drug screen came back negative for everything). I have the feeling that this couldn't happen though--I have talked about drug issues to my mental health providers, and none of that has ever leaked over... Good news! That's super illegal and thus, unlikely.
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Jul 21, 2015 21:00
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I believe what you are describing is called "balance billing". The provider you went to should have a contract with BCBS that says if BCBS denies a cost, they aren't allowed to just try and bill you for it. If I were you, I would call the doctor and explain it to them and try to get them to re-submit to insurance with a different code (which happens all the time). If they are bitchy at you about it, I would call BCBS and explain the situation to the balance billing department, because they will actually understand it, and they will call the doctor and yell at them for doing it. 6 months later you might get a resolution, or the doctor's office might keep billing you forever. Either way I wouldn't pay it and wouldn't care beyond explaining the situation to them nicely. I have made a few calls like that to doctors offices, and they always kind of end up the same way - I end up saying something like "look, I'm not sure you understand the point of this call. I'm not arguing with you or asking you any questions about this. I'm telling you that I'm not paying this bill, and that maybe you need to resubmit it the right way to the insurance company to fix it, but that's the only way it's getting paid". I think one time I actually talked to a woman who understood the issue and fixed it, but mostly they just try to bully you into paying.
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Jul 21, 2015 21:24
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Droo posted:I believe what you are describing is called "balance billing". The provider you went to should have a contract with BCBS that says if BCBS denies a cost, they aren't allowed to just try and bill you for it. Just to make sure we're both on the same page, there are two different providers here: - My endocrinologist, who requested the labwork (including the screening) from Quest Diagnostics. - Quest Diagnostics, who performed the labwork and is billing me. Apparently Quest Diagnostics is billing the work under the incorrect diagnosis, which I'm assuming they got from the endocrinologist. Quest and my endocrinologist are two separate entities. I'll call BCBS tomorrow and ask for the balance billing department specifically to see if they give me a different answer than the BCBS CSR did.
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Jul 21, 2015 23:29
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