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FaustianQ posted:A good Zen chip will be 3.6ghz 95w TDP for an i5 competitor with 90% the performance and 85% the cost? FaustianQ posted:Zen is supposed to have a quick follow on with Zen+, corroborating your assertion that even AMD is not confident in getting all the performance they want out of Goflo 14nm first gen higher performance silicon. There is a lot more to a process than just the metal pitch and AFAIK Intel has GF, Samsung, and TSMC beat on every metric there is for 14/16nm tech by comfortable margins. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turned out that Intel's 14nm ends up performing quite close to TSMC's, GF's, or Samsung's 10nm process. Anime Schoolgirl posted:Not particularly. A larger amount of applications and even games are becoming thread-hungry and IPC improvements don't necessarily include SMT in these sorts of things, as SMT threads are used last in line in basically every implentation after Pentium 4. If multi thread performance really mattered AMD's *dozer sales wouldn't be so dismal. They actually do pretty decent on anything that is heavily multi threaded. Just not much still is. PC LOAD LETTER fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jul 20, 2015 |
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Jul 20, 2015 15:49
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Pretty much. It would give them good sales ($$cash$$ to avoid bankruptcy) and offer nice value for enthusiasts assuming it overclocks moderately well. If they bother to add some nice features like native USB3.1 support to the chipset their platform could even have a slight edge for those looking to upgrade from aging Sandy Bridge based systems. Of course, this will never happen. Even during the heyday of amd64, only enthusiasts cared about the performance gain over intel. Normal people I knew just kept buying intel because "it always worked well for me, ain't buyin no shady AMD poo poo".
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Jul 20, 2015 16:04
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Multi thread matters more than it used to but single thread performance is still king. Past 4 'cores' (threads) is still not needed by most. Though that philosophy might change since they're considering 1-core+SMT parts for low-end mobile and tablet systems and there's pretty much nothing else you can do for that other than make sure single-thread performance is good.
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Jul 20, 2015 16:05
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Their sales did good enough that Intel sought to and AFAIK did successfully knee cap their sales through back room deals. There are plenty who will buy only Intel but plenty too who are willing to buy AMD as well. So long as Zen is decent they've got a shot, if its not...they could indeed be gone by 2018 like that analyst said recently.
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Jul 20, 2015 16:06
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:I'm not sure that they would get close to Intel on a single thread, since nobody else is close to doing that (AMD is still one of the closest companies to doing that, even with construction cores.) and the "flagship" Zen parts will be 4c/8t and 8c/16t. The only reason I'm not totally skeptical at this point is they pulled off something similar before with the K7 and circumstances were nearly as dire back then too. If the K7 had done poorly they'd have gone bankrupt within a year or 2.
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Jul 20, 2015 16:11
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:So long as Zen is decent they've got a shot, if its not...they could indeed be gone by 2018 like that analyst said recently. PC LOAD LETTER posted:The only reason I'm not totally skeptical at this point is they pulled off something similar before with the K7 and circumstances were nearly as dire back then too. If the K7 had done poorly they'd have gone bankrupt within a year or 2. Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jul 20, 2015 |
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Jul 20, 2015 16:12
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A bit of both IMO. Supposedly the DRAM guys have even more drama going on but you almost never hear anything public about it. The few I've ever talked to personally (I live close to some Micron guys) have sounded like they're going to go out of business any day now for the last few years or so. To be fair they have to compete against Hynix and Samsung which is more than a bit of a bitch supposedly but I don't know hardly anything about them other than they get significant support from the Korean govt.
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Jul 20, 2015 16:23
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Truga posted:Of course, this will never happen. Even during the heyday of amd64, only enthusiasts cared about the performance gain over intel. Normal people I knew just kept buying intel because "it always worked well for me, ain't buyin no shady AMD poo poo". 
Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jul 20, 2015 |
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Jul 20, 2015 19:33
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We keep rehashing desktop processors as the thing that'll save or drown AMD but how well do these machines sell compared to laptops? Are they perhaps catering to a market too small to keep their company alive?
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Jul 20, 2015 20:35
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Boiled Water posted:We keep rehashing desktop processors as the thing that'll save or drown AMD but how well do these machines sell compared to laptops? Are they perhaps catering to a market too small to keep their company alive?
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Jul 20, 2015 20:39
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They're going with the Intel system of making server CPUs that trickle down to the desktop market.
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Jul 20, 2015 20:42
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:AMD GPUs tend not to suddenly explode. As much as they rebrand the GPUs themselves are surprisingly durable while I haven't had an Nvidia card, flagship or not, last more than 1.5 years This is anecdotal bullshit why did I type that? LRADIKAL fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 00:13
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Jago posted:This is anecdotal bullshit and probably fanboyism. (had to RMA a GTX 275 twice over, value!)Tanreall posted:They're going with the Intel system of making server CPUs that trickle down to the desktop market.
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Jul 21, 2015 00:18
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FWIW, I bought a Radeon 5870 at launch (PowerColor I think) and it died right outside of the 2 year warranty. My current EVGA GTX 680 is over 3 years old is rock solid. My buddy got a 5870 just after me and he is still using it after like 5 years. Of all of the cards I've had over the years, the only two I've ever had hardware issues with were the 5870 and ATI 9500. AMD SUCKS. 
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Jul 21, 2015 00:25
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Ah anecdote time. My hardware shop outright refuses to sell consumer WD drives and ASUS graphics cards, say their QA poo poo the bed right after that factory complex in Asia drowned or something and never really recovered. So many complaints and returns.
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Jul 21, 2015 00:43
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:Isn't this what they were already doing? Probably but they haven't done well. So they're spinning it in a way to make it seem like they're actively focused on it now.
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Jul 21, 2015 00:49
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sauer kraut posted:Ah anecdote time. My hardware shop outright refuses to sell consumer WD drives and ASUS graphics cards, say their QA poo poo the bed right after that factory complex in Asia drowned or something and never really recovered. Have they shown you their historical data?
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Jul 21, 2015 00:53
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I've only ever had a PNY 6600GT and 8400GS poo poo the bed on me, and I've had a weak blower 5770 from XFX break off and require third party replacement. Everything else has consistently run fine even years after as along as I picked a good company, I only recently had an Asus HD2600XT give up the ghost for instance. Yes, I keep old hardware forever, why do you ask?
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Jul 21, 2015 02:19
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sauer kraut posted:Ah anecdote time. My hardware shop outright refuses to sell consumer WD drives and ASUS graphics cards, say their QA poo poo the bed right after that factory complex in Asia drowned or something and never really recovered. So i assume they throw you out if you even mention Seagate?
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Jul 22, 2015 19:01
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Pretty much. It would give them good sales ($$cash$$ to avoid bankruptcy) and offer nice value for enthusiasts assuming it overclocks moderately well. If they bother to add some nice features like native USB3.1 support to the chipset their platform could even have a slight edge for those looking to upgrade from aging Sandy Bridge based systems. I'm riding out my SB system in hopes that Zen is worth while. 
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Jul 22, 2015 20:48
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Prescription Combs posted:I'm riding out my SB system in hopes that Zen is worth while.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:52
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amd is just a walking husk waiting for a buyout from someone for their tech talent no one gives a poo poo about the x86 license since desktop pc sales are y/y declining but getting the chip designers like koduri and co would be good
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Jul 22, 2015 20:56
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Also buying AMD voids their license so all you're getting are experts in integrated circuits. I guess you could buy out AMD and start promoting PowerPC.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:31
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Boiled Water posted:Also buying AMD voids their license so all you're getting are experts in integrated circuits. I guess you could buy out AMD and start promoting PowerPC. Well, "experts".
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Jul 23, 2015 00:11
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Boiled Water posted:Also buying AMD voids their license so all you're getting are experts in integrated circuits. I guess you could buy out AMD and start promoting PowerPC. I think Intel would just let them keep the license tbh. It's in their own best interest to continue being a "not-monopoly".
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Jul 23, 2015 02:54
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lDDQD posted:I think Intel would just let them keep the license tbh. It's in their own best interest to continue being a "not-monopoly". They can't "let" that happen, it'd break existing contracts. What they can do is offer a good deal on buying their own license.
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Jul 23, 2015 03:05
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Nintendo Kid posted:They can't "let" that happen, it'd break existing contracts. What they can do is offer a good deal on buying their own license. Yes, a "good deal". One that is not meant in a relative, exploitative, sardonic context. Honestly if anyone thought Intel wouldn't be enormous assholes about x86 then maybe there would be interest in a cheaper VIA buyout. There isn't, Intel is happy to have a monopoly on x86 because lol, what the gently caress is anyone going to do about it?
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Jul 23, 2015 03:34
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FaustianQ posted:Yes, a "good deal". One that is not meant in a relative, exploitative, sardonic context. or, comedy PowerPC option 
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Jul 23, 2015 04:39
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if it actually got to the point where intel needed more sales, they could just license x86 like arm does.
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Jul 23, 2015 04:44
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How difficult would an industry-wide transition from x86 to ARM be? Would we have to throw out the entire IBM PC-esque architecture? Or would it be more like, your motherboard still uses a PCIe bus and UEFI/BIOS firmware and all the other things that define a modern PC, except that the CPU is running a different architecture and therefore your programs need to be recompiled.?
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Jul 23, 2015 05:51
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VostokProgram posted:How difficult would an industry-wide transition from x86 to ARM be? Would we have to throw out the entire IBM PC-esque architecture? Or would it be more like, your motherboard still uses a PCIe bus and UEFI/BIOS firmware and all the other things that define a modern PC, except that the CPU is running a different architecture and therefore your programs need to be recompiled.? The biggest similar change was apple 68k to PowerPC, with a power differential high enough that old architecture applications still ran decently, and it only affected ~7% of the market at best. (Ppc to x86 affected fewer proportionately because apple market share had shrunk)
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Jul 23, 2015 06:04
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Another question is: Would it make any sense and can ppc even compete with x86?
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Jul 23, 2015 06:19
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VostokProgram posted:How difficult would an industry-wide transition from x86 to ARM be? Would we have to throw out the entire IBM PC-esque architecture? Or would it be more like, your motherboard still uses a PCIe bus and UEFI/BIOS firmware and all the other things that define a modern PC, except that the CPU is running a different architecture and therefore your programs need to be recompiled.? If ARM had anything even remotely competitive to Xeon it would happen very quickly. The reality is, as much as people like to talk about ARM servers, ARM doesn't have anything remotely competitive by pretty much any metric that you would want to rack in a data center. Chuu fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jul 23, 2015 |
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Jul 23, 2015 07:14
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Boiled Water posted:Another question is: Would it make any sense and can ppc even compete with x86? IBM is dumping an absolute ton of money into POWER right now, and they have some big wins in some very specific industries (see: financial, oil & gas). I don't think you'll see power show up in something like EC2 because production just isn't there -- but I wouldn't be surprised to see POWER spread to other industries in the next couple of years. One of the biggest hurdles with power really is just getting access. If you're at a conference that IBM is sponsoring, are a developer or manager, they'll literally throw resources at you. As in, you could make a phone call and get a VPN and development account set up on one of their servers within a day or two. Probably even get shipped loaner hardware if you had a specific project in mind. This is a major change from even a year or two ago -- where it would be hard to even get interest on IBM's end unless you were linked to the C-suite. EDIT: For your specific question, I can only answer what I've heard from IBM because I have no first hand experience. At a conference dedicated to the financial industry, they were showing off HFT-like applications based on POWER vs. Xeon architectures with very similar mean latencies, but extreemly low jitter due to architectural reasons that I honestly don't remember. Because of their close ties with nVidia and the OpenPOWER initiative, they were promising that starting with Pascal, because of their ability to hang compute units directly off the CPU and close work with nVidia engineers, they will have significant performance improvements over a Xeon based Pascal compute system. How true is this? No clue, but they did win several nice DoD contracts where compute performance was critical. There are also rumors that Google is taking a very large interest in Power, but considering how useful of a marketing tool those rumors are for IBM it could be complete bs. Chuu fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Jul 23, 2015 |
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Jul 23, 2015 07:19
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Chuu posted:If ARM had anything even remotely competitive to Xeon it would happen very quickly. The reality is, as much as people like to talk about ARM servers, ARM doesn't have anything remotely competitive by pretty much any metric that you would want to rack in a data center. Mores the pity TBH, a move away from x86 to an effective ARM64 would make the consumer market competitive again. Does Intel have any investment whatsoever into ARM64?
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Jul 23, 2015 07:41
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FaustianQ posted:Mores the pity TBH, a move away from x86 to an effective ARM64 would make the consumer market competitive again. Does Intel have any investment whatsoever into ARM64? The consumer market is very highly competitive thanks to ARM. Apple is working on custom silicon powerful enough to power Macbooks and Powerbooks, and Intel only has a toehold in the chromebook/tablet/smartphone world. I wouldn't be surprised to see an ARM-based macbook in the next five years -- and one of the side effects of the cloud is that a chromebook is likely to be completely functional for your average desk jockey very soon if not already. If you care about desktops in 2015 you're a bit of a dinosaur. Sadly. Chuu fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Jul 23, 2015 |
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Jul 23, 2015 07:51
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Chuu posted:The consumer market is very highly competitive thanks to ARM. Apple is working on custom silicon powerful enough to power Macbooks and Powerbooks, and Intel only has a toehold in the chromebook/tablet/smartphone world. I wouldn't be surprised to see an ARM-based macbook in the next five years -- and one of the side effects of the cloud is that a chromebook is likely to be completely functional for your average desk jockey very soon if not already. Yea, implied desktop there, I know tablets are fine but I'd like to see ARM move into laptops, and even desktops to an extent. I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of focus on modular Nano-ITX form factor with socketed ARMv8, SO-DIMM slots and something like PowerVR Series 6 on it's own PCB with GDDR5 support on PCIE x4. I think it could be done cheaply enough, and potentially simply enough that desktop PCs could have a really healthy competitive environment again. both CPU and GPU, while not really alienating customers due apparent complexity of replacement, construction and maintenance. Think of it as 200-300$ midrange gaming and home entertainment units. I know, a lot of words saying "Wow, it kind sucks staring at the bleak future of Nvida and Intel".
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Jul 23, 2015 09:23
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Isn't that what the Nvidia SHIELD is trying to be?
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Jul 23, 2015 10:13
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Even on the PC side modularity is and has been going away. Almost everything is on the motheboard now and you see a move towards on board CPU's. Modularity is more expensive and only a tiny fraction of users ever upgrade their PC's (instead of completely replacing them). Since most endpoint devices (tablets, phones, most laptops) already can't be meaningfully upgraded i don't think the market is there like it was in the 80's. I don't know why any manufacturer would invest in setting up the Qualcomm XT compatible standard. And if you want to buy a non modular ARM board and use it as a desktop, well you can already do that.
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Jul 23, 2015 10:23
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Nvidia shield is trying to be a handheld, but handhelds are a dying market, being replaced by smartphones at a hilarious pace. I really don't see where they're going with that.
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Jul 23, 2015 10:33
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