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Chomskyan posted:Do you think Abe's cabinet is right to try and put these bills through the Diet despite the opposition of the Japanese public and a near unanimous consensus among legal scholars that the bills are unconstitutional? I don't know enough about it to judge. How is changing the constitution unconstitutional? Is there no means for amending it? I think Abe is generally a moron/dickhole but in the particular instance of "Should Japan be allowed to use its military for military things" I don't see what the big problem is.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:29
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Grand Fromage posted:I don't know enough about it to judge. How is changing the constitution unconstitutional? Is there no means for amending it? There is an amendment process. It requires a 2/3rds vote from the Upper and Lower houses of the Diet, and then a majority of Japanese voters must approve it in a referendum. The Abe government is not amending the constitution, it is trying to pass a traditional bill which violates the constitution.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:36
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The problem is the people don't seem to want it, and piggybacking on America's foreign policy blunders isn't going to help the average Japanese person.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:36
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Chomskyan posted:There is an amendment process. It requires a 2/3rds vote from the Upper and Lower houses of the Diet, and then a majority of Japanese voters must approve it in a referendum. The Abe government is not amending the constitution, it is trying to pass a traditional bill which violates the constitution. Ah, okay. So he knows that there's no way it would pass that process. I am against leaders violating the laws. I don't think the idea of changing Article 9 is that weird but it should be done properly.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:42
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Sheep posted:Good point with the drop tanks, I hadn't even considered that. Either way, it's unlikely Japan would ever need to get combat superiority over North Korea anyway, and even if they did, it'd almost certainly be a situation where they'd be able to invoke the security alliance and let America deal with long range stuff, so no big deal. I'd say that's a huge issue, which is my entire point. For a country to be as completely beholden to the whims of someone else for the most basic of defense is ridiculous. What if NK fires missiles, but China tells the U.S. not to step in? Should Japan wait around for a week with its thumbs up its rear end while other nations' leaders sip tea and decide their fate? Even limited strike capability would change this entirely, but Japan cant currently buy "offensive" weapons because of the constitution. The current change Abe is shoving through is effectively about ROE and right to belligerency but I feel doesn't address some of the more critical issues of Article 9.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:48
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Japan in general doesn't give a gently caress about laws when it's not convenient. See: The ongoing situation of the Japanese Supreme Court declaring elections unconstitutional multiple times in a row with nothing done about it, workplace regulations violated constantly with violators receiving at best a sternly worded letter asking them politely to change their ways while the whistleblower is blacklisted forever, etc.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:49
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Mercury_Storm posted:The Government of Japan in general doesn't give a gently caress about laws when it's not convenient. See: The ongoing situation of the Japanese Supreme Court declaring elections unconstitutional multiple times in a row with nothing done about it, workplace regulations violated constantly with violators receiving at best a sternly worded letter asking them politely to change their ways while the whistleblower is blacklisted forever, etc. I fixed that for you. The average Japanese citizen, or at least the ones I've spoken to, are concerned about the things you've mentioned.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:54
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I'd say it goes further than just the government. Corporations or even small companies likewise don't care about laws except with they benefit. Of course this is the same as any other country, but it goes a lot further in Japan. Contracts are essentially worthless to the person signing them except as a way to be fired when the company sees fit. Long term contracts can and will be shredded for any reason at all long before their completion date, with zero recourse for the person being fired (and then they get blacklisted forever anyways for trying). And then there's the whole issue with the Yakuza just being allowed to exist and do their thing because it'd be really inconvenient for the police to do anything substantive about them. Better just leave it to private citizens to ban anyone with tattoos. 
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Jul 21, 2015 04:00
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Grand Fromage posted:Ah, okay. So he knows that there's no way it would pass that process. I am against leaders violating the laws. I don't think the idea of changing Article 9 is that weird but it should be done properly. Note that the constitution has also never been even close to being changed in any part, insofar as I'm aware. There's a whole lot of factors that can feed into it, but Japan has been jerking itself off about how peaceful it is for a long time now, combine that with how conservative Japanese people are (not in left-right political spectrum sense, but in the more literal sense that they're adverse to change in many ways), how disconnected much of the population is from politics, and many other factors, and actual contitutional amendment isn't and has never really been in the cards. But purely from a practical standpoint, Japan has always needed to move towards normalization of its military situation, and that's what has been going on for the last 60 years. This is just the latest logical step in the process. The issue is that in Japan it's an incredible polarizing issue, and there's very little in the way of vocal moderates from what I've seen. The people pushing for some form of armament tend to literally be military-fetishist war crime apologists who are the children of some of the major perpetrators in WW2, while the people on the other side seem to be trying their best to live up to terrible peacenik stereotypes.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:03
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Chomskyan posted:I fixed that for you. The average Japanese citizen, or at least the ones I've spoken to, are concerned about the things you've mentioned. And what have they done about it? There was a breif change in the ruling party that was quickly reversed. You say that people are concerned but they sure as hell haven't put their money where they mouth is when it comes to the voting booths. Keep in mind that the people you're talking to about politics, if you're talking to anyone at all, are almost by definition a skewed sample set that are more cosmopolitan than most Japanese laypeople, unless you're one of those types that's totally gone-native off in the inaka somewhere. Hell at the point they're entertaining talks about politics with a non-Japanese at all, they're an outlier. Edit: \/\/\/ that's exactly what I was referring to
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Jul 21, 2015 04:09
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It should be noted that Abe himself is the grandson of a Japanese war criminal and an apologist for Japan's crimes during WWII.LimburgLimbo posted:And what have they done about it? There was a breif change in the ruling party that was quickly reversed. You say that people are concerned but they sure as hell haven't put their money where they mouth is when it comes to the voting booths. I live in the Inaka, and I speak to mostly younger Japanese. I think the fact that there are tens of thousands of protesters outside the Diet right now shows that people care and are trying to do something. And as you mentioned, they also managed to oust the ruling party a few years back, which is very significant. I imagine the response will continue to evolve as "legitimate" means of protest are rendered increasingly pointless by the government's lawlessness. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 04:09
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LimburgLimbo posted:I'd say that's a huge issue, which is my entire point. For a country to be as completely beholden to the whims of someone else for the most basic of defense is ridiculous. What if NK fires missiles, but China tells the U.S. not to step in? Should Japan wait around for a week with its thumbs up its rear end while other nations' leaders sip tea and decide their fate? I'm totally with you. Japan's present setup is stupid, and frankly I don't see much of an issue with Japan having some force projection capability in the region. Honestly I'd prefer to see the security treaty go entirely - I doubt anyone in NATO would object to Japan joining since they were one of the first international partners and along with Australia and New Zealand is the only other contact country of note. Edit: woops forgot that South Korea is a contact country. Anyways that's another good point, if South Korea and Japan could stop being massive shitlords to each other they'd be in a great spot for mutual defense. Sheep fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 04:25
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Sheep posted:Honestly I'd prefer to see the security treaty go entirely - I doubt anyone in NATO would object to Japan joining since they were one of the first international partners and along with Australia and New Zealand is the only other contact country of note. I'm pretty sure NATO isn't at all interested in admitting a country that might invoke alliance-wide mutual defense obligations because of a Japan/China island dispute, which would drag Europe into Asian naval politics in a major way. Even if that isn't too likely, NATO members are already pretty freaked out by Russia playing border games with NATO neighbors. Adding China to the mix is a definite no and would only make NATO look weak when its forces are threatened and China only shrugs its shoulders because it knows NATO isn't really going to attack it for Japan. Not to say it wouldn't be in Japan's interest to get NATO on its side (well well well, would you look at that) but NATO's never going to let it into the inner circle.
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Jul 21, 2015 05:11
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Chomskyan posted:It should be noted that Abe himself is the grandson of a Japanese war criminal and an apologist for Japan's crimes during WWII. Nobusuke Kishi was arguably one of the highest "civilian" war criminals as well. The only reason he was let off the chain in 1948 was because he was the man behind Manchukuo and the American occupation wanted him to revitalize Japan's economy. If China hadn't fallen to communism or the Korean War had never happened, he would have probably been executed instead of becoming prime minister. 
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Jul 21, 2015 05:20
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Chomskyan posted:It should be noted that Abe himself is the grandson of a Japanese war criminal and an apologist for Japan's crimes during WWII. Soka Gakkai International flags being flown at the protests is showing widening dissatisfaction. Groups like SEALDS are showing growing youth participation too.
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Jul 21, 2015 06:05
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Nobusuke Kishi was arguably one of the highest "civilian" war criminals as well. The only reason he was let off the chain in 1948 was because he was the man behind Manchukuo and the American occupation wanted him to revitalize Japan's economy. You got a source for that? I thought it was understood that they didn't go after him because he was only a minor member of the Tojo cabinet and thus not a part of the "conspiracy" to start the war (with America). And he also quite openly opposed the war and pushed Tojo to sue for peace a number of times.
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Jul 21, 2015 06:17
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Tesseraction posted:I'm never sure what to make of North Korea since for all their sabre rattling I haven't actually seen them DO anything since the Korean war finished. Skirmishes sure, and that ridiculous tree incident, but I think for all their bluster they're scared to do anything because they know China is the only reason they aren't currently part of (South-run) Unified Korea, and that China won't actually help them if they strike first. Is sinking a South Korean frigate and killing 50 sailors just a skirmish?
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Jul 21, 2015 11:29
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Womacks-JP-23 posted:You got a source for that? He was the economic man behind Manchukuo and involved in the use of Chinese slave labor. He may have not been a big fan of the war with America but he was a big part of the war against China.
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Jul 21, 2015 11:42
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Combed Thunderclap posted:I'm pretty sure NATO isn't at all interested in admitting a country that might invoke alliance-wide mutual defense obligations because of a Japan/China island dispute, which would drag Europe into Asian naval politics in a major way. Hadn't considered that angle. Ah well, plenty of opportunities to form alliances in Asia if everyone stops being jerks to each other. Perhaps a bit much to ask but the possibility is there.
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Jul 21, 2015 12:54
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Sheep posted:if everyone stops being jerks to each other This is why it's depressing, it seems to be getting worse not better. I don't want a loving giant war in Asia over stupid rocks and nationalism. 
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Jul 21, 2015 12:59
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Yes but you see these rocks are integral Chinese territory. Please respect the feelings of the Chinese people.
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Jul 21, 2015 13:02
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hadji murad posted:Soka Gakkai International flags being flown at the protests is showing widening dissatisfaction. Groups like SEALDS are showing growing youth participation too. I walked by a protest the other day and it was a bunch of women in their 50's and 60's. Is this Sokka Gakkai rounding up their troops?
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Jul 21, 2015 13:03
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Charlz Guybon posted:Is sinking a South Korean frigate and killing 50 sailors just a skirmish? In no-man's land? Yes. A tragic incident but yes, I would class that as a skirmish.
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Jul 21, 2015 13:05
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:He was the economic man behind Manchukuo and involved in the use of Chinese slave labor. He may have not been a big fan of the war with America but he was a big part of the war against China. You have a source on his activities in Manchukuo? Also, that wasn't the reason he was arrested and charged to begin with. Class A war criminals were arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit aggressive war, not with leading the economic development of a puppet region 5 years after the Japanese invaded the area.
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Jul 21, 2015 13:20
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Ned posted:I walked by a protest the other day and it was a bunch of women in their 50's and 60's. Is this Sokka Gakkai rounding up their troops? I assumed SGI was just middle aged men and Orlando Bloom.
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Jul 21, 2015 14:14
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hadji murad posted:I assumed SGI was just middle aged men and Orlando Bloom. They are very organized. They worked very hard to convert me about 15 years ago and I learned all about them.
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Jul 21, 2015 14:18
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Sheep posted:Yes but you see these rocks are integral Chinese territory. Please respect the feelings of the Chinese people. Ok yeah that's a stupid position, but why are you singling out China? Japan is doing the exact same thing.
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Jul 21, 2015 15:02
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It's the slippery slope fallacy. "If we just let them have these rocks, they'll take our whole country next!"  e: On both sides, just to be clear.
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Jul 21, 2015 15:08
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Womacks-JP-23 posted:You have a source on his activities in Manchukuo? Yeah, the Axis powers just kind of stopped being totalitarian assholes after they took over a place. Don't really get why all these Asian countries are so mad about it. It was just a state run economy designed to support Japan's conquest of China, one of the most brutal wars in human history. How bad could it have been? RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 16:09
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:It was just a state run economy designed to support Japan's conquest of China, one of the most brutal wars in human history. How bad could it have been? So? The Allies (including China and Korea) were not interested in going after colonial administrators who had nothing to do with the decisions to invade and exploit their countries. The only reason why Kishi was rounded up in 1945 and charged with Class A war crimes was because he was a member of the Tojo cabinet that made the decision to go to war with the United States and attack Pearl Harbor. However, it turned out that he was not anywhere near the inner circle of key decision makers in 1941, opposed the decision openly, and continued to publicly break with Tojo regarding the war as it progressed. Now, I'm still waiting for that source on his activities in Manchukou.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:52
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Chomskyan posted:Ok yeah that's a stupid position, but why are you singling out China? Japan is doing the exact same thing. Since it apparently wasn't clear, I was poking fun at China (and the entire situation) by restating the official Chinese position on rocks in the ocean and using a line they often drag up when criticized about anything.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:57
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Womacks-JP-23 posted:So? First off, Manchukuo was not viewed as a colony, it officially was its own country and was viewed as a puppet regime as early as 1932. Most the world didn't even acknowledge its legitimacy. I'm working on finding an article that isn't behind a pay wall but Kishi essentially carried out the same policies he carried out as labor minister at the national level in Manchukuo. http://japanfocus.org/-William-Underwood/2187/article.html The whole reason he was brought on as Labor Minister was because Tojo knew he could be counted on to do stuff like that due to Tojo's experience in Manchukuo. Even beyond his record in Manchukuo, Kishi's record on the national level was worthy of prosecution and most likely execution if it occurred The idea that Kishi was innocent of war crimes on the grounds that he wasn't holding a military position or disagreed with the war with the US is ridiculous. He implemented and maintained wartime policies that forcibly conscripted laborers who were mistreated and often worked to death. EDIT: If you look at the Nuremberg Trials and the men who committed similar crimes to those committed by Kishi, like Fritz Sauckel and Albert Speer, you can see a marked difference. Even Albert Speer served 20 years and Kishi only served 3 years without ever being indicted or tried. Kishi also gained back all of his rights in 1952. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 19:41
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Womacks-JP-23 posted:So? A great source for this is Mark Driscoll's Absolute Erotic, Absolute Grotesque: The Living, Dead, and Undead in Japan's Imperialism, 1895-1945, specifically Chapter 8, which details the exploitation of the ethnic Chinese labour force in Manchukuo that Kishi carried out through his top-down implementation of "industrial rationalisation". I'm lifting this straight from the book, but in 1937 Kishi's Office of Administrative Affairs published labour policy that officially authorised the use of "methods of forced conscription" as a means of rationalising the composition and use of Manchukuo's labour force in the face of apparent emergency. Later in 1941, this was solidified as an order for all Manchukuoan men to serve six months of unpaid labour every three years; this was extended to one year of unpaid labour in 1942. Though the process of forced labour was formally institutionalised in this way after Kishi had left Manchukuo for Japan in 1941, it was definitely Kishi who began the institutionalisation of forced labour through his rationalisation drive of the late 30s. Driscoll covers a whole bunch of other aspects of Kishi's pretty crazy management of Manchukuo, so I'd recommend checking out the book if you're interested in that kind of thing. EDIT: Just to add to the gravity of the situation, the system that developed from Kishi's economic policies in Manchukuo saw an average of 1.5 million Chinese men per year being forced to work without any form of remuneration. Frigate Orpheon fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 20:33
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Frigate Orpheon posted:A great source for this is Mark Driscoll's Absolute Erotic, Absolute Grotesque: The Living, Dead, and Undead in Japan's Imperialism, 1895-1945, specifically Chapter 8, which details the exploitation of the ethnic Chinese labour force in Manchukuo that Kishi carried out through his top-down implementation of "industrial rationalisation". I'm lifting this straight from the book, but in 1937 Kishi's Office of Administrative Affairs published labour policy that officially authorised the use of "methods of forced conscription" as a means of rationalising the composition and use of Manchukuo's labour force in the face of apparent emergency. Later in 1941, this was solidified as an order for all Manchukuoan men to serve six months of unpaid labour every three years; this was extended to one year of unpaid labour in 1942. Though the process of forced labour was formally institutionalised in this way after Kishi had left Manchukuo for Japan in 1941, it was definitely Kishi who began the institutionalisation of forced labour through his rationalisation drive of the late 30s. Thanks for providing some sources but I highlighted one major problem. Kishi was not a member of the Office of Administrative Affairs (総務庁) until 1939. Before that he was in the office of industry from 37-39. But let's just assume that he was involved in that office, for the sake of argument. What you are describing are the actions of an rear end in a top hat imperialist capitalist - no different from the administrators of any other imperial power at the time. And when the poo poo really hit the fan and slave labor took off in big numbers in Manchukou, he was already long back in Japan working on other things. None of this is a "class A" war crime. If you stretch it (and this will depend on how much direct oversight he had over forced labor programs post 1941), you might be able to make a case for Class C crimes.However, he was arrested and charged with a completely different set of crimes.
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Jul 22, 2015 06:53
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I wouldn't be posting here because my knowledge of the Japanese politics is lacking, but no one has posted this and apparently Japan is restarting its first nuclear plant since the Fukushima incident From what I understand, bringing down the nuclear power capacity in Japan was a populist (albeit demanded by majority of the voter base, afaik?) move in the wake of the Fukushima disaster. TEPCO has a lot of connections to the policy makers within the Japanese government, and was shown to be incompetent/straight out neglecting the plant before and after the incident. I'm confused about the incident in that, on one hand there was hysteria when the entire thing happened, and on the other hand there seemed to be lack of communication/covering up the facts and the inhabitants of the area are blaming the government. And then again I remember hearing the claims the quarantine zone around the incident area is exaggerated. Is there any merit to claims of the quarantine zone being a knee-jerk reaction? Am I wrong in being extremely suspicious of whatever Abe is advocating in response of the incident in the past and the present? Partially why I'm posting this is because it kind of hits close to home because I'm mildly positive towards nuclear energy, but all the politics and neglect around it are souring me seriously on it. Because here in Finland, we have shady poo poo going on around our new proposed-to-be-built nuclear plant including shady ties to Russia, not to mention we are in fact buying the reactor from Rosatom. link - While the current nuclear power plant project has been delayed for years and is still ongoing with no end in sight. And then we get victims of Hiroshima - which was an atrocity, of course - visiting Finland in June and telling us not to build more nuclear power because of the bombs  I guess I can understand the national tragedy and the baggage caused by it, but that's not rational thinking. Then again, apparently the survivors and their offspring have experienced irrational discrimination in Japan - Does this kind of thinking explain some of the reactions to the Fukushima incident?edit: My reluctance with the Rosatom deal is with making us any further dependent on Russia for our energy needs in terms of maintenance and the backroom dealing that was going on with Finnish companies wanting to get a slice of Russian water energy which would beholden us to further pressure, especially during the current political climate. | v Dessel fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 11:44
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^^^ That's fair. The situation around there right now *is* lovely. I doubt Putin's dumb enough to poo poo on one of their only things that are still competitive, but it is Putin... Dessel posted:Is there any merit to claims of the quarantine zone being a knee-jerk reaction? The majority of the zone is safe for people to live in, yes, so you can argue it's too big. Or you can argue it's too small, because there are a couple contaminated spots outside it, due to the weather during the accident. Either way, it's not perfect, and should probably be rethought, much like the Chernobyl exclusion zone, which makes zero sense today. Dessel posted:not to mention we are in fact buying the reactor from Rosatom. FWIW, Rosatom makes really good plants. VVER-1200 (what they're currently building in a lot of places) is a generation 3+ reactor, is slightly more efficient than a similar Westinghouse plant, and is just as safe. It can run everything for a day in case of a total failure and has a 3 day passive core safety even in the event of complete coolant failure. Even in a complete fuckup like Fukushima, where a 10 meter wall of sea destroyed everything around it, 3 days would have been more than enough to get core cooling back online and prevent a meltdown. e: This has been the irony of ~nukular power danger~ around the world for decades, really. People screaming about the dangers of nuclear power due to soviets loving around in Chernobyl, trying to prevent making new ones anywhere. Meanwhile, ancient first and second generation plants built in the 60s and 70s keep on ticking away the hours, while having safety features that make a yugo look like a mercedes. For example, Fukushima 1 2 and 3 were scheduled all for decommission in February 2011, after being already having their life extended once, but they extended it again due to ever higher power demand and not enough new plants
Truga fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 12:43
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Dessel posted:edit: My reluctance with the Rosatom deal is with making us any further dependent on Russia for our energy needs in terms of maintenance and the backroom dealing that was going on with Finnish companies wanting to get a slice of Russian water energy which would beholden us to further pressure, especially during the current political climate. Being fair in a few years you'll be the Finnish Oblast in the Russian Federation so it's no big deal to at least have your energy supply prepared for the transition. Russia still owes you an occupation and Häyhä ain't around to save you this time!
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Aug 11, 2015 13:36
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I have to imagine being inherently suspicious of just about anything Abe is advocating can't exactly be the worst possible thing to default to regardless of context---that combined with the insanity of TEPCO and the, as I understand them, "gag laws" that came after the fact in the fine thematic tradition of our own Disaster Bungling here in the states with BP down in Louisiana and all. The nuclear thing is something that could probably be made workable over there, but I can't quite imagine the necessary due diligence being handled properly---not in that sort of political/business landscape versus where you have to genuinely want it to work out for the public good and proper technological advancement.
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Aug 11, 2015 14:23
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Truga posted:e: This has been the irony of ~nukular power danger~ around the world for decades, really. People screaming about the dangers of nuclear power due to soviets loving around in Chernobyl, trying to prevent making new ones anywhere. Meanwhile, ancient first and second generation plants built in the 60s and 70s keep on ticking away the hours, while having safety features that make a yugo look like a mercedes. Building a nuclear power plant is pretty goddamn expensive though--IIRC it's much more expensive than a conventional power plant, which is far less controversial despite making GBS threads up the planet a lot more. It's cheaper and less a political minefield to keep using decrepit old plants than build new ones. And no guarantee that new ones won't be built without lots of corners being cut in the current environment. Still a shame though, since the proximity to water makes Japan a prime spot for nuclear power plants. The earthquakes and tsunamis aside, of course.
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Aug 11, 2015 15:47
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If anything Japan is a prime candidate for geothermal, but it's anyone's guess as to why they're not going down that avenue.
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Aug 16, 2015 04:07
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