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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I think the most reasonable thing in the video was him asking her to put out her cigarette. If that was an unreasonable request in anyone's opinion, please tell me why. Tbh smokers deserve to die
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Jul 22, 2015 21:06
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I think the most reasonable thing in the video was him asking her to put out her cigarette. If that was an unreasonable request in anyone's opinion, please tell me why. The stop was over. All she had to do was sign and she'd be on her way. But the officer just couldn't let her off that easy.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:09
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I think the most reasonable thing in the video was him asking her to put out her cigarette. If that was an unreasonable request in anyone's opinion, please tell me why. Why shouldn't she be allowed to smoke a cig in her own car. So long as she wasn't like blowing smoke in dude's face what's the harm? mastershakeman posted:Tbh smokers deserve to die Though this is also true.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:09
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nm posted:No, but it is illegal to "delay" a cop, which is loving broad as poo poo, so it is best to just shut up, ask for a lawyer, and no consent to any searches. Yeah, it's best to just let the police do what they want, worst case you get sexually assaulted in jail and your children have no mother for 3 days.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:09
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Apparently, that's not the case: That might not be the part of the encounter that violated agency procedures though.... They haven't really specified
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Jul 22, 2015 21:10
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Apparently, that's not the case: Unless DPS has a more restrictive policy than the supreme court (very possible), they are probably disciplining him for being an unmitigated rear end in a top hat at the end of the traffic stop. I think one thing that confuses people when lawyers post that somrthing is "legal" doesn't mean it is a best practice or sothing that should have been done. It is not illegal for a cop to be an rear end in a top hat within thr law, but it may be a violation of policy. Unfortunantly, rudeness means you ride a desk for a few weeka until people forget about you, thenbyou do a "how not to be an rear end in a top hat camp" then remember to cover your mic next time you start acting like a tool.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:10
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ElCondemn posted:Yeah, it's best to just let the police do what they want, worst case you get sexually assaulted in jail and your children have no mother for 3 days. Your mother is just as guilty of that outcome as the police. Grr bark police evil arooooo 
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Jul 22, 2015 21:11
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nm posted:Unless DPS has a more restrictive policy than the supreme court (very possible), they are probably disciplining him for being an unmitigated rear end in a top hat at the end of the traffic stop. I figured as much (with respect to the how); I don't know about pinpointing the "why" until they release more information. I just figured that "policy" covered stuff that's not technically illegal. Similar to inter-office relationships or stuff like that; disciplinable but not breaking the law necessarily. lapse posted:That might not be the part of the encounter that violated agency procedures though.... Yeah, I just threw it up because it mentions the officer involved & said it had to do with the "stop", though I admit that word might include everything, like the transport & booking.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:12
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ElCondemn posted:Yeah, it's best to just let the police do what they want, worst case you get sexually assaulted in jail and your children have no mother for 3 days. I'm not certain of your point. In what way would pissing off the cop made anything better? I agree that pretrial detention is massively overused, but fighting with the cop makes it even worse.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:16
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nm posted:I'm not certain of your point. In what way would pissing off the cop made anything better? The point is "stop resisting and it might hurt less" isn't really productive commentary for those who are getting hurt even when they don't resist.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:18
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I think the most reasonable thing in the video was him asking her to put out her cigarette. If that was an unreasonable request in anyone's opinion, please tell me why. It's not unreasonable to ask, it's unreasonable to get mad and then arrest her for not submitting to his authority.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:23
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nm posted:I'm not certain of your point. In what way would pissing off the cop made anything better? The cop demanding she put out her smoke was just a tactic to stir the pot. It was a trivial, irrelevant thing but it was easy to make her 'talk back' and refuse to make the situation appear more confrontational than it truly was. When someone feels they are being unfairly targeted or treated, the first thing they are going to do is reflexively deny that kind of authoritative poking. "Pick up that can" Indeed. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 21:26
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Berk Berkly posted:The cop demanding she put out her smoke was just a tactic to stir the pot. It was a trivial, irrelevant thing but it was easy to make her 'talk back' and refuse to make the situation appear more confrontational than it truly was. Especially at the end of the stop rather than at the beginning. That's pretty telling.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:27
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Dirk the Average posted:Blaming the victim is an awful policy, and in many cases, you have the police murdering a civilian before they even have a chance to interact with them positively or negatively. Really? Lets look at the numbers.. Bureau of Justice Statistics posted:WASHINGTON – From 2003 to 2009, a reported 4,813 persons died during or shortly after law enforcement personnel attempted to arrest or restrain them, the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) announced today. About 60 percent of arrest-related deaths (2,931) were classified as homicides by law enforcement personnel and 40 percent (1,882) were attributed to other manners of death. read more So the numbers don't back you up... but by all means.. Keep towing that line. quote:Blaming the victim for their behavior is bullshit. The onus is on the trained professional to properly handle the situation and not murder civilians out of spite. I like this. "Victim blaming" is a magic button for people who don't want to be held accountable for their actions. You want police to be accountable for their actions but the moment someone says citizens should be to, its victim blaming. Ehhhhhh.... No. It isn't. Its exactly what it says. When you are interacting with the cops, they have a responsibility to act properly. So does a civilian. Obdicut posted:If you wanted to, you could engage with the substantive posts made that actually do think about the issue, but you prefer to bark and growl back at the ones that bark and growl. Yes I did. Its a scavenger hunt. Look back and read my posts, its there. Dexo posted:If you think there aren't racist cops you are deluding yourself. Like there have been studies and investigations that show that us African-Americans are disproportionately targeted by police officers on a macro scale. I didn't say they weren't. There is a huge issue not only with officers targeting african-americans, but there are laws themselves that are geared towards african-americans. This is the kind of thing I am trying to explain. And the point I am making. There are systemic problems that need to be addressed. They need to be identified, discussed and changed. quote:This doesn't mean on the individual level that every single Cop is racist, but guess what. Cops and Unions that don't stand up to and challenge what is essentially an unwritten rule of Omerta, on other cops who report brutality, or who help in investigations on other cops that do screw up and act outside of the law or with unreasonable force. Do nothing to help the communities they serve as all it does is keep those dangerous cops on the street to continue to do harm. This is for all cops, Black, White, Latino, etc etc. Right. There is a number of issues. Much like I said earlier, we agree that there is an issue with accountability. Investigating, hell even the process of reporting issues needs to be addressed. Is this problem the process of reporting? Or enforcement of conduct polices. I'm not sure. Which is why it needs to be looked into. It very well could be that per regulations of that unit that the officer did nothing wrong. Which means the regulations for that unit are a problem. Maybe it wasn't properly reported. Maybe it comes down to internal protection or CYA measures. It could be a failure at every stage mentioned. Obviously there is an issue somewhere. And as a society we need to address that/those issues.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:28
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Genocide Tendency posted:Great reply. Hm yes, why would anybody get the idea that you're a racist, I wonder... Genocide Tendency posted:The last good thing to come out of Africa, wandered around the middle east for 40 years.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:36
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Genocide Tendency posted:"Victim blaming" is a magic button for people who don't want to be held accountable for their actions. You want police to be accountable for their actions but the moment someone says citizens should be to, its victim blaming. Wrong, as a civilian I have no responsibility to treat police well. I can be mouthy and an rear end in a top hat to them and they have no right to dispense punishment for it. Telling people to submit to police authority at all costs is stupid and authoritarian. Are you ok living in a country where people are afraid to disagree with police because they fear the repercussions? I suppose you're ok with it because all the rag heads and monkey fuckers are the ones who are forced to submit, not you or your kind.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:37
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Genocide Tendency posted:
No, you didn't respond. You said the fatuous, stupid following: quote:Explain to me what makes you think responding in a non-physical way to someone kicking you is going to be effective? I didn't, and I'm not, saying to respond in 'non-physical' way. So, do you have an actual answer that makes any sense? quote:There is a huge issue not only with officers targeting african-americans, but there are laws themselves that are geared towards african-americans. This is the kind of thing I am trying to explain. And the point I am making. There are systemic problems that need to be addressed. They need to be identified, discussed and changed. And people in this thread are talking about that, but instead of engaging with those posts, you whine instead. Why?
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Jul 22, 2015 21:39
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mastershakeman posted:Out of curiosity, is the only thing a cop can't do at a stop (without probable cause) is search the vehicle without consent? Not even really that depending on circumstances. If you're the only person who can drive the car and in a state where any minor violation is arrestable, then they can even perform a search of the car minus probable cause. If you want to search, but you somehow can't manufacture PC, then you just choose to arrest the driver. Since there's no one else who can take the car away, the decision to arrest lets you have the car impounded. When the car arrives at impound, an inventory search will be performed against the vehicle. Congratulations, there's your non-consensual vehicle search without having had to rely on PC. When I was in college, I took a criminal justice class on civil liberties, and another student in the class was a cop from a podunk jurisdiction close to the school. Guy basically openly bragged about this loophole, and why you better just consent to searches if you'd like to avoid going to jail and having to get your car out of impound.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:44
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A Civilian is (generally, being rich or having connections can bypass it somewhat) held accountable for their actions. Two civilians bump into each other accidentially. One of them frustrated says something smart to the other person. The other person then proceeds to beat up person who made the statement. The dude doing the punching is going to be arrested and face trial for assault, thus seeing accountability. Words have never ever ever been an excuse to lash out and attack someone else. Meanwhile being frustrated and saying something smart to a cop as you are liable to get pulled out of your car and blamed for something you didn't do, such as assault or whatever to justify the arrest. Dexo fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 21:46
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Useful Distraction posted:Hm yes, why would anybody get the idea that you're a racist, I wonder... Again: Genocide Tendency posted:Great reply. ElCondemn posted:Wrong, as a civilian I have no responsibility to treat police well. I can be mouthy and an rear end in a top hat to them and they have no right to dispense punishment for it. Its not telling people to submit to authority at all costs, its expecting someone to not be a loving bag of cocks because "the man is keeping me down". Do you have any idea what a cop is supposed to do? Do you actually understand their job? Its to keep the community safe. Its not an easy job, and when they are trying to enforce rules they need to conduct themselves in a manner fitting of someone charged with the protection of the community. Citizens on the other hand have the responsibility to be reasonable to someone trying to do their job. Oh. I get it. Expecting people to act civilized is the problem here. You know what. gently caress it. Cops should start shooting fuckers dead in the streets. For any perceived injustice. Why? Because if we should act like animals, we should be treated as such. Police reform is a joke, and anyone gunned down deserves it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 22, 2015 21:51
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Genocide Tendency posted:Really? Lets look at the numbers.. Okay, so you just vomited a bunch of numbers at me, fantastic. If I'm reading this correctly, 45% of deaths during an arrest involved assault before or during the arrest, which I would assume is against the officer. What does that tell us about the 55% of cases where assault was not a factor? Furthermore, 6% of the deaths during arrest were accidental injuries. Back of the napkin math puts that at just shy of 300 people. I'm not seeing where any of this disproves my point. Also, for some strange reason, I hold the armed, armored, trained professional with backup to a significantly higher standard than the civilians that he or she interacts with. Insulting an officer is not a crime that should be punishable by death or the ruination of your life.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:52
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nm posted:I'm not certain of your point. In what way would pissing off the cop made anything better? Your perspective and insight are valuable to this thread. Sometimes it can rub people the wrong way when they're not seeing it from your point of view. Keeping your head down, being submissive, and acquiescing to authority when it's the authority whose out of line rankles folks. At the same time it's the best way to deal with those situations. So when technically legal things happen that would be enormously offensive to anyone suffering that same situation, people take offense to the kind of clinical lawyerly tone (sometimes unfairly in this thread, I think). i.e Sandra Bland not putting out her cigarette and suddenly going from "here's a warning" to "get out or I'm gonna light you up". Yeah technically legal (though shouldn't be at all without some probable cause). There's a lot of reactionary posts/posters here that sometimes blow things out of proportion or take a mistaken understanding of what you or others might say because well, it's a bit of an emotional subject. While I agree that pissing off a cop isn't going to make anything better. I'll also admit that I yelled at a cop (while otherwise perfectly compliant, and in hand-cuffs) because it was only while I was restrained he started warning me threateningly, repeatedly about falling down and loving my face up (coincidentally, I'm sure, after accusing me of being gay). So while you're right, it's a lovely situation to be in and not that easy to actually do. e: To sum it up, please stick around even if you're getting pounced on a bit. I like ya. hobotrashcanfires fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 21:52
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Useful Distraction posted:Hm yes, why would anybody get the idea that you're a racist, I wonder... Hahaha, I'm not sure why anybody's bothering at this point
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Jul 22, 2015 21:53
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Genocide Tendency posted:Again: So you must be pretty pissed at the cop who arrested the woman after the lane change he provoked, right? Who ordered her to put out her cigarette, which has zero to do with the protection of the community? quote:You know what. gently caress it. Cops should start shooting fuckers dead in the streets. For any perceived injustice. Why? Because if we should act like animals, we should be treated as such. Police reform is a joke, and anyone gunned down deserves it. You are so sensitive! 
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Jul 22, 2015 21:54
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Genocide Tendency posted:
My Only request to cops is don't escalate problems. Guess what if the Cop rather than losing his poo poo due to a slight disrespect had said, "Sorry Ma'am I'm just doing my job, handed her the ticket and walked away" none of this poo poo would have happened. She would have probably still been pissed, but she would be alive right now.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:56
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DARPA posted:The stop was over. All she had to do was sign and she'd be on her way. But the officer just couldn't let her off that easy. So was it unreasonable for him to ask her to put it out? If so, why.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:57
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:So was it unreasonable for him to ask her to put it out? If so, why. Yes. Why would it be possibly reasonable to ask her to put out the cigarette? Edit: Ask is okay, but it wasn't an ask, it was a demand. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 21:58
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In a perfect world both sides should always deescalate situations. But like with most things the attempt for deescalation should always come from the person in a position of authority on their job.Hot Dog Day #91 posted:So was it unreasonable for him to ask her to put it out? If so, why. Unreasonable to ask? Nope. poo poo he could loving ask for all kinds of things and it would probably ok. poo poo ask her out on a date for all I care. Everything that happened after it. Yes. Dexo fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 21:59
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:So was it unreasonable for him to ask her to put it out? If so, why. It's fine for him to ask, but she's under no obligation to do so. Further, if her answer is "no", he needs to just keep the stop moving forward, not get belligerent over her refusal.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:01
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:So was it unreasonable for him to ask her to put it out? If so, why. Yes, because it was a pointless flaunt of authority over a completely trivial thing. It was purely a jab into her personal space that he knew would illicit a reflexive denial and give the superficial veneer of confrontation. If a friend asks you to put out a cig, sure thats reasonable. If an authority figure demands you put out a cig or any other verbal pelvic thrust of their authority over you, its no longer 'reasonable' its now just baiting. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 22:01
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Given that the stop was over, it was unreasonable to ask
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Jul 22, 2015 22:02
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Berk Berkly posted:Yes, because it was a pointless flaunt of authority over a completely trivial thing. It was purely a jab into her personal space that he knew would illicit a reflexive denial and give the superficial veneer of confrontation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNd8iNx1gGk&t=5s
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Jul 22, 2015 22:04
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Genocide Tendency posted:I like this. Here's the problem, you are conflating two very different kinds of responsibility. You should be polite when dealing with cops because A) you should be polite to everyone and B) It is safer. But while being rude to a cop is unwise and a failure of manners, it is a completely different level of irresponsibility than demanding someone put out their cigarette, ordering them out of the car when they refuse, and then dragging them out of the car when they refuse to do that. Police are granted wide powers about using force during traffic stops as a matter of protection. Those powers should not be used to salve a cop's ego after being disrespected, and doing so is so much worse than rudeness that the two don't belong in the same sentence. While both parties could have behaved better, the cops failures were significantly more serious. More importantly, a claim that police officers can only be expected to do their jobs properly when the people they deal with are polite to them is self-evidently absurd.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:12
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Baltimore police are featuring a blackface performer (who used to be a cop before being fired for performing in blackface) at their fundraiser for the 6 cops indicted in Freddie Gray's death.quote:However, one of the planned performances for the evening tells a more interesting story. A number of "entertainers" are also advertised, including a few lounge singers and instrumentalists, and at the end of that list is "Bobby "Al Jolson" Berger-out of retirement."
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Jul 22, 2015 22:20
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Just to be clear, since the article isn't: the settlement referenced involved the city paying Berger for violating his First Amendment rights (by firing him for off-duty speech) and for retaliating against him after several courts decided that his rights had been violated and ordered his rehiring. (That isn't cop-specific, by the way - government employees have free speech rights when they speak outside their employment, minus some very limited exceptions.)
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Jul 22, 2015 22:37
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I'm sure most here remember the baby who had his face torn up by a flash bang grenade during a no knock raid. The person responsible for the bad info that 'justified' that raid is being charged.quote:Habersham deputy sheriff Nikki Autry, working with the multi-agency Mountain Judicial Circuit Narcotics Criminal and Suppression Team, was indicted on four counts of criminal civil rights violations, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office. "Without her false statements, there was no probable cause to search the premises for drugs or to make the arrest,” acting U.S. Attorney John Horn said Wednesday. “And in this case, the consequences of the unlawful search were tragic.” That was a federal grand jury, by the way. Despite what I'm certain were the DA's best efforts a state grand jury voted not to indict back in October. quote:In October, a state grand jury called the drug investigation "hurried" and "sloppy," but found no criminal intent by any of the officers involved and declined to return any indictments. Autry resigned after the grand jury findings were released.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:43
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Genocide Tendency posted:Again: The uppity animals are the real problem, not the animals who murder and terrorize people.
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Jul 22, 2015 23:13
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His name was genocide tendency. I mean come on. How he feels is in his own drat name.
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Jul 22, 2015 23:40
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thefncrow posted:Not even really that depending on circumstances. If you're the only person who can drive the car and in a state where any minor violation is arrestable, then they can even perform a search of the car minus probable cause. Good post. The cops are holding all the cards, the law is on their side, the courts are on their side. They know what they can and can't get away with. I have been pulled over in Waller Co just outside Prairie View, (it was a deputy sheriff not DPS), and the officer was a total prick, like he was trying to push my buttons, I held my tongue and followed his instructions. The tragedy is, a lady was pulled over for failure to signal and now she's dead. No matter who did what, that's a shame.
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Jul 22, 2015 23:41
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Given that the stop was over, it was unreasonable to ask This is the legally correct answer I think, but I'd say asking or demanding it was reasonable, but taking the stop further after the refusal to put out the cigarette is when we crossed into unconstitutional territory. It's sad when a situation could end peaceable but tempers and egos get in the way. Mostly from the cop here.
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Jul 22, 2015 23:49
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