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Yeah I agree, specially about trinkets. I almost never use them because of the reasons listed. Sometimes I'll find some that only nerf aspects of a character I don't use (like ranged attacks on a leper) but they're otherwise not great and not worth the time sorting through. I wish instead of some ultra rare pendant that give a million buffs and penalties you'd just slap some item that did a single good thing. I guess have some that had pros and cons, but have them always come out in the positive once added up. And yeah, I tend to only do medium missions. Short you don't get camping buffs and long is just a tiresome slog and you can't carry all your poo poo out.
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Jul 21, 2015 23:12
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I'm a lot happier with just about every class as of this patch. The class that excites me the least now is the Arbalast, who isn't even really -bad-, just kind of boring.
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Jul 21, 2015 23:28
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An easy buff for PD would just be to make her really, really fast. If she DoTs something, it eats a tick that turn, not the next turn. If someone's at DD or covered in blood/slime, she can heal them at the very beginning of the round, removing their DoTs before they tick. If she buffs someone, they get the buff before they attack. Everything she does would be so much better if she would just go first all the time.
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Jul 22, 2015 00:03
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With Battlefield Medicine at 100% base cure now a PD has a spot in any party that expects to eat more than a couple dots. Which is, effectively, all of them. Nobody is talking about the buff that her inspiring vapors got either. That skill now buffs speed in addition to damage, so it is loving awesome on Crusaders especially. Hth.
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Jul 22, 2015 00:11
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The starting damage boost also went from 15% to 25%. Not sure how it is fully upgraded, but it is pretty huge, especially with a group that is stacking damage buffs on stuff. I'm pretty sure PD is in a solid position, the only skills that are crap are her bleeds, which didn't get buffed along with the blight skills.
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Jul 22, 2015 00:38
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Great, a PD can increase a crusader's damage by 25-33%. Whereas another crusader would add 100% more crusader damage. Also lol, PD blight skills weren't buffed, they were nerfed hard. The PD is ok to have around for odds and ends (reliably curing diseases during camp is fantastic, and AOE stun with a few stun trinkets is pretty sweet) but is pretty bad most of the time. She only works because you can stick her in a party with a couple overpowered classes and have them do all the work while she waits for rare moments of usefulness.
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Jul 22, 2015 01:24
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Or you could stack +crit items on her and critically blight multiple things all day while removing every hostile bleed and blight, buffing people, stunning half the enemy party and shuffling poo poo around on top of destroying corpses, all from the third row. Plague Doctor is shaping up to be a pretty decent class imo. If you prefer taking straightforward scrapper characters than just do that. It's okay to not like a class because it doesn't suit your preferred tactics and playstyle!!
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Jul 22, 2015 01:31
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Gabriel Pope posted:Great, a PD can increase a crusader's damage by 25-33%. Whereas another crusader would add 100% more crusader damage. Angry Diplomat posted:Or you could stack +crit items on her and critically blight multiple things all day while removing every hostile bleed and blight, buffing people, stunning half the enemy party and shuffling poo poo around on top of destroying corpses, all from the third row.
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Jul 22, 2015 01:47
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I don't think crits increase dot damage, but still get a damage increase on the hit and stress relief. You can put on trinkets that increase chance of various status effects, which is pretty solid. What PD skill got nerfed hard? They got buffs to blight damage, to their +dmg and condition removal, and with the advent of corpses they got a lot of strong options to handle that. With corpses around, if you have your front liners remove a dangerous 2-slot enemy, they can still hit both 3/4 with another stun or blight attack, while before you'd only hit 1. Unless you're just trolling us, which I guess is a possibility.
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Jul 22, 2015 01:58
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ZypherIM posted:I don't think crits increase dot damage, but still get a damage increase on the hit and stress relief. You can put on trinkets that increase chance of various status effects, which is pretty solid. Critting doesn't increase dot damage per turn, but it increases the number of turns that the dot is active, e.g. 3 every turn for 3 turns goes to 3 every turn for 5 turns. I'm pretty sure that's the numbers I saw from critting with the PD's blight attacks. DOT damage can get pretty fuckin' huge this patch.
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Jul 22, 2015 02:29
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ZypherIM posted:I don't think crits increase dot damage, but still get a damage increase on the hit and stress relief. You can put on trinkets that increase chance of various status effects, which is pretty solid. Noxious blast went from -33% damage to -75% and plague grenade went from -75% to -90%. Meanwhile, tick damage used to be 3/3/4/4/5 at each level to 3/4/4/4/5. So e.g. Noxious Blast does a total of +0.3 damage at level 1 if you land blight and the enemy lasts the whole 3 rounds, and does less damage overall at every other level 
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Jul 22, 2015 03:35
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Ok so the only thing that actually was nerfed at all was the direct damage on the attacks. In exchange poo poo doesn't leave a corpse, which is 8+ HP or using a corpse removal skill. I have never seen someone talking about how good the direct damage on the PD's attacks were, so I'm going to chalk this up as not a huge nerf.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:34
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I like dots because they cut through prot. Corpse removal is a little who cares to me given you can remove them all with one ability across three classes off the top of my head.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:37
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Didn't they reduce enemy resistance to DoTs in general as well?
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Jul 22, 2015 04:47
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ZypherIM posted:Ok so the only thing that actually was nerfed at all was the direct damage on the attacks. In exchange poo poo doesn't leave a corpse, which is 8+ HP or using a corpse removal skill. I have never seen someone talking about how good the direct damage on the PD's attacks were, so I'm going to chalk this up as not a huge nerf. Removing corpses is a very minor perk. If you ever find yourself needing to stop and remove corpses it means you done hosed up. Meanwhile, damage is damage and the PD lost a decent chunk of it. It literally takes Noxious Blast two rounds to do what it used to do in one. Considering that other classes can level the battlefield in two rounds this is pretty bad.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:59
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Gabriel Pope posted:Removing corpses is a very minor perk. If you ever find yourself needing to stop and remove corpses it means you done hosed up. Yeah I don't think I've ever once purposefully targeted a corpse, or a pew. Are they supposed to go away when enemies get shuffled though? It seems that if I drag an enemy through a pile of corpses they all vanish.
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Jul 22, 2015 05:31
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I don't know if I really believe you ever used PD much at all. I rarely use her, and it has literally never been for the direct damage that the 2 abilities you mentioned do. Every other aspect has been improved, directly or through other mechanic changes. It is fine if you think she is still weak, or don't like to use a playstyle she fits into. I think maybe you are failing at reading comprehension as well: when I mentioned the buff to blight skills that skipped bleed skills, that was not this patch.
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Jul 22, 2015 05:42
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Guys, I'm about to make a new save file to check out the PD "it's at least not as terrible as it was" hype. Stop giving negative reviews you dicks  EDIT: Did they actually, definitely, 100% fix the "missing a corpse" thing? If not, where can I go to edit it? I assume corpses are a specific enemy so one edit edits them all?
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Jul 22, 2015 07:25
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I really like the new patch. It's much more viable to stunlock and blight enemies, since corpses lock enemies into place. Now PD has a use in the last few stages of battle! It makes cheesing a little bit easier, but not by too much. edit: Stop missing on corpses and make maggots less dangerous, and it'll be perfect.
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Jul 22, 2015 07:54
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I had my Leper miss a corpse earlier, so it definitely still happens.
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Jul 22, 2015 13:02
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man, if you've got a semi-flexible party, a jester is loving great. shank frontline with a stab, then do the finale thing that puts him at the end of the line, commence to use battle ballad or solo. sometimes I'll use a jester with Harvest if he stays in the middle. He can do so much and feels like he gets a really great crit/dodge rating too.
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Jul 22, 2015 13:29
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah I don't think I've ever once purposefully targeted a corpse, or a pew. Are they supposed to go away when enemies get shuffled though? It seems that if I drag an enemy through a pile of corpses they all vanish. There are several pull/shuffle attacks that inexplicably have the ability to clear all corpses from the battle. ZypherIM posted:I don't know if I really believe you ever used PD much at all. I rarely use her, and it has literally never been for the direct damage that the 2 abilities you mentioned do. Every other aspect has been improved, directly or through other mechanic changes. It is fine if you think she is still weak, or don't like to use a playstyle she fits into. I think maybe you are failing at reading comprehension as well: when I mentioned the buff to blight skills that skipped bleed skills, that was not this patch. The Usual Suspects is one of my favorite parties. I don't use the PD "for" her direct damage either, but that doesn't mean that her direct damage is irrelevant. Direct damage and damage over the time both achieve largely the same goal; losing damage makes a DOT attack worse at its job of killing things through accumulated HP damage. Another way of looking at it: against enemies that are susceptible to both blight and bleed, the PD's 3 damage/turn DOT is weaker than the Hellion's 2 damage/turn DOT. Why? Because the Hellion's does ~8 more damage upfront that doesn't care about resistance. You have to get up to 70% prot before the PD's attacks become a competitive proposition, and even then you're sacrificing damage now for very very slightly damage later that might be resisted anyhow.
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Jul 22, 2015 13:34
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Gabriel Pope posted:I don't use the PD "for" her direct damage either, but that doesn't mean that her direct damage is irrelevant. Direct damage and damage over the time both achieve largely the same goal; losing damage makes a DOT attack worse at its job of killing things through accumulated HP damage. Not only this but direct damage is inherently worth more than damage over time because dead enemies can't hit you.
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Jul 22, 2015 14:00
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Gabriel Pope posted:Great, a PD can increase a crusader's damage by 25-33%. Whereas another crusader would add 100% more crusader damage. The speed buff is big and you're ignoring it also another Crusader wouldn't be able to handle enemy dots which is huge on the attrition endgame that everyone is talking about also speed helps basically every class and the PD can use that edge to nudge any class over the edge from taking hits to moving and killing first so unless you're advocating taking a total damage zerg party (which you argued against a few builds ago when it was even more viable than it is now) then the PD is basically the most generally effective support character we have right now since she prevents boatloads of damage hth I'm not saying she is perfect, she could probably use a few more updates to her moves to make her less vulnerable to rank shuffling, and the speed buff on her weapons someone mentioned would go a long way toward making her great. But calling her bad is being a curmudgeon. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 15:00
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the buff Vapor and corpse clearing abilities alone make the PD a good choice. great stun and blight opportunities to lock down enemies. if her battlefield medicine healed like 2-3 health instead of 0-1 and they did something else instead of that shank attack, I think she'd be even better. def needs to be used in a party that can make up for the lack of direct damage though---gotta have two stonewalls up in front. But I do agree that usually I'd rather have Jester/Arbalest/crits from a Graverobber.
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Jul 22, 2015 15:07
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Rank 3 PD medicine heals 2hp in addition to 100% clearing all DoT effects on her target and herself. She's loving incredible for giving your team an assload of tactical flexibility and staying power; she'll never end a fight early by wasting something with a single critical hit, but she'll help keep your party alive, healthy, and sane for a long, long time if you use her effectively. Hell, my last Warrens expedition was a level 3 party with just Leper + Bounty Hunter for damage, PD for general tactics and Occultist for healing and curses. It worked quite well; the good Doctor prevented an incredible amount of blight and bleed damage and kept enemies shuffled where I needed them, the Leper could either brute things to mush or rapidly bludgeon scary enemies into uselessness with Intimidate, and the Occultist and Bounty Hunter set up surgical strikes against annoying opponents. It was a methodical strategy based on patience, attrition, and risk vs. reward, and I was surprised by how effective it proved to be. I'm really pleased that front-loading damage like a lunatic isn't the only decent strategy for regular runs anymore. Now if only my Plague Doctor wasn't Fragile 
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Jul 22, 2015 15:20
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Coolguye posted:(which you argued against a few builds ago when it was even more viable than it is now) You must have me confused with someone else, sorry  Nonetheless, I apologize for venting. I like Plague Doctors and I'm mad they got nerfed when they weren't especially good to begin with. Angry Diplomat posted:I'm really pleased that front-loading damage like a lunatic isn't the only decent strategy for regular runs anymore. This is really the crux of it. Damage is still king, but no classes are unusably bad. Granted, part of that is that some classes are so good they can carry a team, but I've tossed some pretty shittacular groups into the meatgrinder and made it work. Grave Robber, Grave Robber, Jester, Houndmaster? Sure, why not?
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Jul 22, 2015 16:20
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Angry Diplomat posted:I had my Leper miss a corpse earlier, so it definitely still happens. Sometimes I think leper just has an absolute chance to miss, no matter the accuracy buffs and dodge of the beastie.
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Jul 22, 2015 17:00
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Famethrowa posted:Sometimes I think leper just has an absolute chance to miss, no matter the accuracy buffs and dodge of the beastie. I suppose that's possible. I've also got him wearing a helmet that raises his melee accuracy a lot (I think he's actually a little more accurate than my Bounty Hunter now), so if there is a unique miss mechanic associated with the Leper it's got to be some kind of inverse Fated that just gives a flat chance of missing regardless.
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Jul 22, 2015 17:17
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Famethrowa posted:Sometimes I think leper just has an absolute chance to miss, no matter the accuracy buffs and dodge of the beastie. I think EVERYONE has a cap and floor on hit chance, like 95% and 5% or something? Maybe 90%. I know I hit it with my Leper all the time back when I used them due to trinkets and stuff. I just made a new save file and lost Dismas in the first Fat Brigand fight due to an early bleed crit and then never dodging anything afterward. He did survive three Death's Door hits/bleeds before he went, though! I just made a new file and he lived the second round with 2hp and 4 bleed a turn :iamafag: I did immediately lower all small corpse HP to 1 and have them only last 2 turns, though. I figure treating them like Minions in D&D 4e is a fair idea: annoying chaff that you can clear as long as you hit them with literally any damage. I changed the big corpses to 8hp to at least give a chance of taking two hits, and I left their duration at 3. I'm a cheater, guys. A dirty, fun-having cheater
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Jul 22, 2015 17:25
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I've heard that there is an accuracy cap for all attacks in general.
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Jul 22, 2015 17:26
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Gabriel Pope posted:I've heard that there is an accuracy cap for all attacks in general. Accuracy is displayed when you're hovering over enemies, and I've never seen that value go above 90%.
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Jul 22, 2015 17:52
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So what parties are people running with? Since the updates I'm really having trouble building a sort of general go-to team. Before I had a few well oiled machines that complemented each other well and were flexible enough to deal with most any situation. Now I'm constantly finding my self screwed over because oops no one can stun, or everyone just does bleeds but I'm fighting skeletons, or no one can hit the back rank, or something like that.
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Jul 22, 2015 18:37
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I recommend two grave robbers, a jester, and a vestal. You'll never have issues hitting where you want to, you don't care about shuffling, and have the hilarity of a mob of idiots leap frogging all over each other to murder things.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:45
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Jinx posted:[PD] camps skills are nothing to get excited about either. Most of her camp skills are pretty crap, but one deserves special mention - The Cure, despite what its tooltip says, removes all diseases from a single hero. She can turn someone who needs a month and 2,500 gold in medical treatment into someone who's right as rain in a single night camping. I've intentionally grabbed the most pox-ridden, plauge-carrying sorry sonofabitch I have and sent em' out with a PD, and it makes a huge difference in your people-management challenges. Especially since Fungal Artillery and maggots can now give diseases. Jerks. Baronjutter posted:So what parties are people running with? My favored party now is [Vestal or PD] - Highwayman - [BH or Crusader] - Hellion. Lots of ability to hit wherever you want, some Bleed and Blight if you bring a PD, decent durability.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:08
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Black Wombat posted:Most of her camp skills are pretty crap, but one deserves special mention - The Cure, despite what its tooltip says, removes all diseases from a single hero. She can turn someone who needs a month and 2,500 gold in medical treatment into someone who's right as rain in a single night camping. I've intentionally grabbed the most pox-ridden, plauge-carrying sorry sonofabitch I have and sent em' out with a PD, and it makes a huge difference in your people-management challenges. I'll try that out. I'm sure it will work out better than my all-jester run.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:11
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Black Wombat posted:Most of her camp skills are pretty crap, but one deserves special mention - The Cure, despite what its tooltip says, removes all diseases from a single hero. She can turn someone who needs a month and 2,500 gold in medical treatment into someone who's right as rain in a single night camping. I've intentionally grabbed the most pox-ridden, plauge-carrying sorry sonofabitch I have and sent em' out with a PD, and it makes a huge difference in your people-management challenges. So you can literally just take a PD along with two dudes and no supplies on a Long mission and immediately heal both up and then leave? 
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Jul 22, 2015 23:46
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Locke Dunnegan posted:So you can literally just take a PD along with two dudes and no supplies on a Long mission and immediately heal both up and then leave? If you wanna eat the stress and opportunity cost of not going on a mission, sure.
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Jul 23, 2015 00:26
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It's not exactly an opportunity cost, since the only thing you lose by delaying a week is potential bragging rights.
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Jul 23, 2015 01:46
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Locke Dunnegan posted:So you can literally just take a PD along with two dudes and no supplies on a Long mission and immediately heal both up and then leave? The Leeches ability also has a 50% chance to remove a disease, so you could reasonably expect to cure the whole rest of the party! I don't know if Leeches does all diseases or one, but either way, handy. If everyone has Pep Talk or other stress reducers, and you bring enough food for feasting, you can even have a net Stress loss while you do it. It's... Really kinda dumb.
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Jul 23, 2015 05:50
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