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The part in the final battle where Nagisa covers her face, then transforms it into her witch face legitimately creeped me out.
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Jul 25, 2015 22:02
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Lord Justice posted:she's supposed to be part of the central cast That sounds like the faulty assumption of the viewer. She's clearly the team pet and a side character. In the ending she doesn't have a ring and unlike Sayaka doesn't resist her new memories. She's a little girl who's cute comic relief. Sure, she could be fleshed out and heightened to 'main character' and I see no reason why further material would refuse to do so. That's just not something Rebellion is responsible for. Space Flower fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 12:59
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Lord Justice posted:Mami is characterized by her attempt to appear as the "senior Magical Girl"; to address her loneliness by impressing Madoka and Sayaka. As well, due to this, she acts as an unwitting surrogate for the Incubators, lying for their benefit in tempting Madoka and Sayaka to be Magical Girls. I feel like I should point out that none of this really constitutes remarkable character complexity/depth. "She is lonely and wants others to stay with her/join her. This helps the incubators because it could result in Madoka/Sayaka contracting" is kind of a bare minimum of characterization you'd hope for in a show. Actually, pretty much all the characters, with the sole possible exception of Homura, have about the same characterization you'd expect from any decent anime (and Madoka in particular is pretty bad in that she isn't really defined by anything other than "being really nice and wanting to help people"). And even Homura's character isn't that interesting/complex unless you also include her role in Rebellion.
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Jul 26, 2015 14:04
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You probably need to watch it 15 more times to really get it.
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Jul 26, 2015 14:53
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Space Flower posted:That sounds like the faulty assumption of the viewer. She's clearly the team pet and a side character. In the ending she doesn't have a ring and unlike Sayaka doesn't resist her new memories. She's a little girl who's cute comic relief. Rebellion isn't responsible for making Nagisa a better character, but it does introduce her and make her a fairly important character in relative terms. She's not as important as the rest of the Quintet, but she's clearly not a background character either. PerrineClostermann was quite on point earlier, she's too integrated into the story to remove her, but her role in the story is such that her characterization is minimal. To me it does feel like she's supposed to be part of the group, especially in regards to her relationship with Mami as well as Godoka and Sayaka, both in Rebellion and Post-Rebellion. She's the only Magical Woman we see besides Sayaka, and she fills a sort of surrogate-daughter role for Mami. Essentially, there's a fair amount going on with her character, it's just Rebellion is obviously focused on Homura and Madoka. Ytlaya posted:I feel like I should point out that none of this really constitutes remarkable character complexity/depth. "She is lonely and wants others to stay with her/join her. This helps the incubators because it could result in Madoka/Sayaka contracting" is kind of a bare minimum of characterization you'd hope for in a show. Actually, pretty much all the characters, with the sole possible exception of Homura, have about the same characterization you'd expect from any decent anime (and Madoka in particular is pretty bad in that she isn't really defined by anything other than "being really nice and wanting to help people"). And even Homura's character isn't that interesting/complex unless you also include her role in Rebellion. In the end this is going to be a subjective interpretation, but I felt Mami was characterized as well as she could have in the space they had for her. You can boil down any character to a list of traits anyway, what I find more interesting is how those traits are expressed and utilized within an artistic work. In this case, Madoka's execution was near flawless. I feel it's also worth pointing out that Madoka herself is more complex than you've suggested. First, there's her iron will and determination, such as fighting Walpurgisnacht in the first loop (listen to her voice there, it's quite different from Aoi Yuuki's usual Madoka voice), or killing Mami to save Homura. As well, (and this is going into a future analysis, so I'll be brief), she's something of a blind idealist, unaware of what her ideals mean in context or how they affect the people around her. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 17:35
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I like Madoka characters because despite them being heavily traited anime characters you can see where they're coming from and they feel natural. Like Madoka is at first just nice because she's naive and well off but then she sees that and she struggles to keep seeing hope while having her blinders pulled off. Homura is aloof and driven but she has been let down by everyone and has her view fixed on the one thing she wants - Madoka's safety - just to give her the strength to go on. Mami is lonely and motherly but it's understandable given how she got her powers. Sayaka and her downward spiral is from starting off being a lot like Madoka but failing in her arc to keep hope alive, due to being too quick to make a life-changing choice. Kyouko seems like a villain at first but it's understandable that she's just decided to go by survival of the fittest. Yknow lets compare Madoka characters to Gaim characters. Gaim Guy (forgot his name) is sort of like Madoka - feels like he's not good at anything unless he becomes a superhero, seems to be a goody two shoes who's nice to everyone - but he's actually a less mature and intelligent character, he doesn't really figure anything out for himself or motivate himself. Even in timelines where Madoka makes a contract, she's shown to be a fairly competent and driven character. She has to be informed a lot and even gets manipulated but she makes her own opinions about what she's told. and the end of the series is culminated by a brilliant plan Madoka made. Kyouko plays a similar role to Baron Guy, but Kyouko doesn't really make stilted analogies to cliche'd misunderstandings about nature. She does what she does because she's practical. Baron Guy just doesn't do anything unless he can describe it as STRONG in some way or another, without regard to whether it makes any sense or not. His entire characterization is the word STRONG. I can someone who experienced poverty, the death of their family, and all the other poo poo Kyouko went through could make someone who thinks and acts like Kyouko. Baron Guy I couldn't. I don't know of anyone who could operate in the real world by shouting about STRENGTH and STRONGNESS all the time. It's been a while since I tried to watch Gaim and I'm not the most articulate about anime but this is kind of how I felt, and why I felt the young adult characters of Gaim were less mature, intelligent, and understandable than the fourteen year old girl protagonists of Madoka.
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Jul 26, 2015 17:52
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Namtab posted:You probably need to watch it 15 more times to really get it. On my ninth re-watch I noticed that mami is not only older but also has the largest boobs. I bet there is a lot of significance behind that. trucutru fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 18:32
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trucutru posted:On my ninth re-watch I noticed that mami is not only older but also has the largest boobs. I bet there is a lot of significance behind that.
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Jul 26, 2015 19:02
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lord justice, can you type 5000 words about mami's boobs?
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Jul 26, 2015 19:02
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Endorph posted:lord justice, can you type 5000 words about mami's boobs? No, about all I have to say about it is that, yes, they're supposed to give her a more motherly look, but it's also apparent Ume Aoki had more intentions so to speak when designing her. From her design notes: "Her twisty, curly hair and floral hairpin make her seem like a big sister. Also, I gave her pretty big boobs" - "Magical girl outfit: Mami’s design was definitely centered around her image as a gunner. The second thing that stands out are her breasts." Which, frankly, while I find it annoying, overall Ume Aoki's designs are quite well done and tie into what I feel is Madoka's external core philosophy, or at least part of it, which is the non-sexualization of the characters. Beyond the designs you can also see this in the movies, such as the removal of most of the nudity. The issue is of course Rebellion itself, which seems to backtrack on this somewhat, especially with Mami's introduction. I don't know why this was done, and it's easily the worst part of Rebellion itself. Thankfully, it's a minor part of the film, and doesn't impact the quality too badly. In sum, I would say Madoka should serve as a example to anime in general, in how to design your characters and avoid the inherent issues of sexualization. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 19:15
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Can you expand on titys as a whole, which madoka has the best baps? And what of asses?
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Jul 26, 2015 19:26
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You're doing the lords work Namtab.
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Jul 26, 2015 19:27
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Lord Justice posted:"Her twisty, curly hair and floral hairpin make her seem like a big sister. Also, I gave her pretty big boobs" Ume Aoki owns
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Jul 26, 2015 19:29
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Lord Justice posted:Mami's tits: easily the worst part of Rebellion. I have never disagreed with your analysis more, it's definitely all the attention on sakaya's rear end.
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Jul 26, 2015 20:56
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Endorph posted:lord justice, can you type 5000 words about mami's boobs? Are you the boob fairy, going from thread to thread making sure people are talking about boobs?
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Jul 26, 2015 20:57
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No, I am
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Jul 26, 2015 21:07
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Namtab you are the Kyubey of boobs, anyone who talks about them because of you will later regret it.
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Jul 26, 2015 22:47
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That's sad, because you should never regret talking about boobs
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Jul 26, 2015 22:49
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Starsnostars posted:Namtab you are the Kyubey of boobs, anyone who talks about them because of you will later regret it. 
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Jul 26, 2015 22:57
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This thread looks like SMG hit it.
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Jul 27, 2015 06:51
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trucutru posted:I have never disagreed with your analysis more, it's definitely all the attention on sakaya's rear end. I rushed through making my last post, and thinking on it (although I really shouldn't be, but it still bothers me), Mami's introduction isn't the worst part of Rebellion objectively, it would be the scene where she's wearing a towel and nothing else. I had forgotten about it to be honest, the scene is so worthless and completely devoid of any sort of point that even after sixteen viewings I tend to forget about its existence. Subjectively however, I would argue that the worst part of Rebellion in this regard isn't the blatant sexualization of Mami. Rather it is this...thing:  I don't know what Ume Aoki was thinking with the design of Demon Homura's outfit, but it's ridiculous on multiple levels. First, it doesn't even fit with the other designs of the characters, and essentially breaks Madoka's external core philosophy. Second, it doesn't make sense for Homura herself to wear something like that, her MG outfit being the most conservative of the group as the most obvious example. Third, and this is subjective, but Homura is my favourite character in any artistic work. It is profoundly irritating to see her sexualized in such a manner. About the only saving grace is that the outfit is so patently ridiculous that the sexualized aspect of it becomes a bit background. At this point I'm hoping that sometime in Madoka's future the characters grow up, and in Demon Homura's case especially, realize how ridiculous their outfits are and stop wearing them. If nothing else, I'm hoping it it doesn't show up in Post-Rebellion.
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Jul 27, 2015 06:55
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Homura's outfit is an "evil" echo of Madoka's. QED.
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Jul 27, 2015 06:58
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I don't think I've watched anything 16 times.
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Jul 27, 2015 06:59
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Anything I really liked before the internet gave me instant access to pretty much whatever I've probably seen 16 or more times.
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Jul 27, 2015 07:06
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Sakurazuka posted:Anything I really liked before the internet gave me instant access to pretty much whatever I've probably seen 16 or more times. Fair enough. Boy the Internet sure is wonderful.
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Jul 27, 2015 07:07
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PerrineClostermann posted:Homura's outfit is an "evil" echo of Madoka's. QED. The intent of the design doesn't excuse the execution. Demon Homura's outfit could have achieved the "evil opposite of Godoka" without the blatant sexualization.
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Jul 27, 2015 07:07
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littleorv posted:I don't think I've watched anything 16 times. Haven't read any of Lord Justice's posts on it though. Sakurazuka posted:Anything I really liked before the internet gave me instant access to pretty much whatever I've probably seen 16 or more times. Someday I kind of want to go back and watch some kids movie I only saw as a young child, y'know before my brain properly developed an understanding of causation and memory. Those are probably the exact wrong psychological terms but I'm sure you all know what I mean. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 07:24
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littleorv posted:I don't think I've watched anything 16 times. So you haven't seen anything of weebls? What are you, a monster?
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Jul 27, 2015 07:33
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Lord Justice posted:The intent of the design doesn't excuse the execution. Demon Homura's outfit could have achieved the "evil opposite of Godoka" without the blatant sexualization. Sex is seen as the opposite of purity. Plus sex sells. Stop being obtuse.
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Jul 27, 2015 07:45
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PerrineClostermann posted:Sex is seen as the opposite of purity. Plus sex sells. Stop being obtuse. I'm aware of the concepts you're presenting, my issue isn't with that in general, it's how it's applied to Madoka in particular. Madoka succeeded without the "sex sells" mantra, it is one of the primary reasons why I like it. Madoka has been and should be above such crass marketing tactics within the anime itself, and it is disappointing to see Ume Aoki seemingly forget this with Demon Homura's design. My argument isn't with the intent of the design, but rather that the design shouldn't exist at all in its current form.
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Jul 27, 2015 07:55
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Lord Justice posted:the scene is so worthless and completely devoid of any sort of point It's SHAFT being SHAFT; I think everyone should be able to appreciate that. The theater I watched the premier went nuts over Mami's Mamis and Sayaka's ridiculous headtilt. I think Aoki Ume's design values with Akuma Homura's outfit are fairly straightforward and synergize with her characterization. It's an expression of her love, and almost undoubtedly draws inspiration from the Swan Lake's Black Swan and/or Princess Tutu's Kraehe. (And maybe some Suigintou, knowing Ume) This is strongly supported by the abundance of ballerina imagery throughout the movie. Tchaikovsky's work is a strong motif and we see Homura use ballet both in her transformation and in the ending. There's no reason to be upset with Homura 'being sexualized'. It's her love. No one chose her decisions for her. She owns the look if you ask me. It's graceful in the way Homura always has been. Yes, another outfit could have work, and I for one adore the funeral dress (I got the figure for it and there's another one coming out.  ). But they chose to go with the "broken bird" look and I agree with it.
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Jul 27, 2015 07:57
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Lord Justice posted:I'm aware of the concepts you're presenting, my issue isn't with that in general, it's how it's applied to Madoka in particular. Madoka succeeded without the "sex sells" mantra, it is one of the primary reasons why I like it. Madoka has been and should be above such crass marketing tactics within the anime itself, and it is disappointing to see Ume Aoki seemingly forget this with Demon Homura's design. My argument isn't with the intent of the design, but rather that the design shouldn't exist at all in its current form.
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Jul 27, 2015 08:05
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Twiddy posted:"I don't like it so it shouldn't be there" isn't as strong an argument as you're trying to make it. Let me turn it around, then. Why is the sexualization of characters within Madoka a good or acceptable thing? My argument, is, essentially, that sexualization is, in almost all cases (to cover for instances where it isn't, which to be honest, I can't think of any), detrimental to the work and adds nothing.
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Jul 27, 2015 08:12
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Lord Justice posted:Let me turn it around, then. Why is the sexualization of characters within Madoka a good or acceptable thing? My argument, is, essentially, that sexualization is, in almost all cases (to cover for instances where it isn't, which to be honest, I can't think of any), detrimental to the work and adds nothing. As an example of what I'm talking about, just read Space Flower's last post a few times. There's clearly things being done here that aren't just "put Homura in a skimpier dress."
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Jul 27, 2015 08:20
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I can easily see a reading that as the Magical Girl->Witch transition is or can be a metaphor for puberty, it's only natural that Homura, the only Magical Girl who owns her transition, rather than being ruled by it, would embrace her place as an adult, and the sexuality that comes with it. There's definitely more to it than "tits are good"
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Jul 27, 2015 08:27
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Twiddy posted:Sexuality is an intrinsic part of the human experience and attempting to label anything that you don't agree with as sexualization rather than an expression of that is going to lead you down some very unproductive roads. Space Flower's post, in a way, exemplifies what I'm talking about. Her outfit, in intent, is very Rebellion, referencing other works and building on them, adding to the overall theme Rebellion has. The issue I have is that it could have done that without the blatant sexual aspects. You're correct in that sexuality is an intrinsic part of human nature, but just because it's part of the human condition doesn't mean it needs to be inserted into every work. Madoka doesn't need it, and preferably it should be kept as far away from that stuff as possible. I don't trust SHAFT to handle it properly, and the encroaching aspect of it is extremely worrying, such as in Sunny Day Life, Magical Girl Training Camp, Battle Pentagram, and of course, Rebellion itself. Subjectively, I see Madoka as an oasis of sorts separate from the over-sexualization of anime in general, and this then informs my reaction to its inclusion within Madoka.
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Jul 27, 2015 08:46
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PerrineClostermann posted:Sex is seen as the opposite of purity. Plus sex sells. Stop being obtuse. She's 14.
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Jul 27, 2015 09:00
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I disagree. In fact, I would go so far as to say that representing the transformation of Homura's love by using a symbolic dress is very tasteful. What it represents and the feelings of the characters it draws inspiration from are very powerful concepts and part of why I still think about Rebellion. Homura in the wraith world must have missed Madoka dearly, and just imagine all of the time she must have spent alone, just sitting and stewing in her own longing for the Madoka. Imagining the warmth of her smile, the sound of her voice, the comfort in her embrace... You saw the good ending for Battle Pentagram, right? No, I don't even need to use that as an example. Rebellion itself is all the evidence we need, as it's Homura herself who creates that idyllic world where Madoka is always looking at her instead of being the series Madoka who is always walking ahead of Homura, always out of reach. (Sidenote: the imagery in the series and Rebellion with Homura reaching or grasping is my favorite. It's powerful.) And hey, Hanokage is running a manga right now in Kirara Magica that just might capture that transition. Space Flower fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 09:19
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Lord Justice posted:Space Flower's post, in a way, exemplifies what I'm talking about. Her outfit, in intent, is very Rebellion, referencing other works and building on them, adding to the overall theme Rebellion has. The issue I have is that it could have done that without the blatant sexual aspects. . Sexuality without thematic purpose is fanservice and bad, but I think that outfit's pretty freighted with significance, so I don't think it's something to wring hands about. It's a transformation that's driven by love and literally unprecedented in the history of the setting, so it's only appropriate it looks visually different from Homura's previous strait-laced costume and the aesthetic the setting has used until now. Lestaki fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 09:35
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the sexual aspects are the entire point have you ever heard of the madonna-whore complex. that's why devil homu has a kinda sexual outfit.
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Jul 27, 2015 10:57
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