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It seeks to do no harm, and not rely on strength. With these two precepts it is no wonder it's effectiveness is limited. Many of its benefits lie outside this anyway. Physical exercise, mental relaxation/stress relief, social interaction and so on. Someone who wants to learn to fight is not going to choose aikido. All I am really saying is that I think it has value. And there is a differentiation between good and bad aikido (my original post). I don't like Jazz but if someone tells me there is good and bad Jazz I'm not going to argue even if I think it is all "bullshit".
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Jul 26, 2015 14:23
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Just to add my anecdotal evidence...my exposure to aikido has been : 1 - Couple of different BJJ purple belts and above who picked up wrist locks from aikido to augment their game 2 - One complete bullshitter
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Jul 26, 2015 14:32
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Dysgenesis posted:It seeks to do no harm, and not rely on strength. With these two precepts it is no wonder it's effectiveness is limited. Many of its benefits lie outside this anyway. Physical exercise, mental relaxation/stress relief, social interaction and so on. Someone who wants to learn to fight is not going to choose aikido. Anything that purports to "no do harm" and involves throwing people on the ground is absurd. Throws are outrageously dangerous when you don't have a compliant partner breakfalling on a padded mat and are much more harmful than strikes, generally speaking.
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Jul 26, 2015 14:34
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Kekekela posted:Just to add my anecdotal evidence...my exposure to aikido has been : Having dropped aikido for boxing, the only thing I appreciate from my aikido days are the wrist locks
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Jul 26, 2015 15:08
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There are some interesting throws in that aikido demonstration that I can see being kind of useful in a defense situation.
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Jul 26, 2015 15:11
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Aikido is a dumb useless art for cool people.  Have any of you goons read Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence? I picked it up recently because our teacher recommended it, and I found it a really good read. Miller's style is very rambling, but he writes well enough that I didn't mind, and his anecdotes from his prison guard days were pretty interesting. The book's about preparing for violence from a self-defense sort of view - what kind of violent threats there are, how people end up in self-defense situations, that sort of stuff. Miller makes a pretty compelling point that unless you're training in a specifically self-defense context, pretty much all martial arts do kind of a poo poo job preparing people for unexpected violence. Mostly because it's unexpected, natch. The book kinda killed my interest in arguing whose pet art is the least bad at not getting stabbed with a sharpened toothbrush. Aikido is good for you and you get to wear a sweet skirt.
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Jul 26, 2015 15:18
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Claiming that something that is 90% defenses to punches, grabs, and stabs isn't presenting itself as a system of fighting is tremendously disingenuous.
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Jul 26, 2015 15:33
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Lamadrid posted:There are some interesting throws in that aikido demonstration that I can see being kind of useful in a defense situation. Even if the technique is sound, if you're not able to train them in live sparring they'll be useless to you anyway.
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Jul 26, 2015 15:55
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Siivola posted:Have any of you goons read Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence? I picked it up recently because our teacher recommended it, and I found it a really good read. I've read it and used to read a whole bunch RBSD-stuff but after I got into jobs that involved violent encounters (mental health, bouncing) I realized that no matter how much information you have tried to gather, the only way to learn about "real life violence" is just doing your job. You start to see how situations evolve, what to say and what to do to diffuse situations and when to intervene physically and how to do it. Violence is unexpected if you don't see what's happening around you, but once you get better at your job, you see more. If you have sparred/wrestled/grappled/played football/played rugby a lot, you have a feel for physical encounters and it makes a lot of stuff a lot easier. I'm a judo dude and just kuzushi is often enough, people fall all over just by pulling at the right moment. I spend a lot of time reading that stuff and it is kinda interesting but other than that it hasn't really benefitted me.
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Jul 26, 2015 15:59
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This kind of discussion is why I really have mixed feelings about stuff like Aikido. Sure, people are free to have fun doing whatever they want, but that kind of training seems to me like it dishonestly convinces people that they know how to fight. Whenever I've sat and watched any kind of Aikido it just becomes cringeworthy. Traditional Martial Arts can be fine and good, but that's one step too close to "throwing chi balls" for me. TKD and Shotokan are about my limit. Maybe Wing Chun could be ok, but I've heard quite a bit of McDojo rhetoric from Wing Chun dudes. If I ever desire to mix my fighting and my make believe, I'll just play dungeons and dragons at the gym.
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Jul 26, 2015 16:02
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CommonShore posted:This kind of discussion is why I really have mixed feelings about stuff like Aikido. Sure, people are free to have fun doing whatever they want, but that kind of training seems to me like it dishonestly convinces people that they know how to fight. Whenever I've sat and watched any kind of Aikido it just becomes cringeworthy. Traditional Martial Arts can be fine and good, but that's one step too close to "throwing chi balls" for me. TKD and Shotokan are about my limit. Maybe Wing Chun could be ok, but I've heard quite a bit of McDojo rhetoric from Wing Chun dudes. TKD and shotokan karate are combat sports, and as such have developed to be very effective within their rulesets.
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Jul 26, 2015 16:08
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Mechafunkzilla posted:TKD and shotokan karate are combat sports, and as such have developed to be very effective within their rulesets. Yeah, exactly. For all of their eccentricities, they're still rooted in actually punching someone in the head. Well, not punching them in the head. Punching them in the chest (err chest protector?) or kicking them in the head. Or at least tapping them clearly enough so that a referee sees it, if not a proper punch. And any martial art that is any further disconnected from actual fighting than that is just too fluffy for me to even recommend to my friends who want to put their kid into a gi.
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Jul 26, 2015 16:55
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Any art that teaches me a real Kamehameha will get my money forever. Until then its just competitive man hugging for me.
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Jul 26, 2015 17:22
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Rabhadh posted:Having dropped aikido for boxing, the only thing I appreciate from my aikido days are the wrist locks I dropped aikido for mt. I appreciate the rolls and break falls, I've even used them in real life.
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Jul 26, 2015 18:33
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I think I've only met one aikido dude. He was a master ninja death machine. "Judo is just a sport, though. MMA is just a sport, though. I fight for REAL. I am not held back by rules. " He would've been held back by high cholesterol though
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Jul 26, 2015 20:55
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The real problem is that Judo actually teaches what Aikido only claims to have: a scalable, working skillset for physical encounters that's built around a philosophy of nonviolence. Aikido has no redeeming qualities in comparison. None. It's just showmanship, using compliant partners to make it appear that Aikidoka can go beyond the real limits of physical efficiency; throw a grown man with a literal flick of the wrist, etc. And there is such an undertone of "your faith in the idea is the ultimate source of your superhuman abilities" that any attempt to dissuade Aikidoka of their convictions is met with a shrug. Aikido doesn't work and it's wrong to sell it to people who actually want Judo and just don't know there's a difference.
A Wry Smile fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 21:00
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A Wry Smile posted:any attempt to dissuade Aikidoka of their convictions is met with a shrug. that's them deflecting the energy out of your personal attacks, bro 02-6611-0142-1 fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 21:03
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Right? It's interesting to me how the 'harmonious philosophy' always seems to manifest as evasiveness
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Jul 26, 2015 21:08
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A Wry Smile posted:Right? It's interesting to me how the 'harmonious philosophy' always seems to manifest as evasiveness I mean...
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Jul 26, 2015 21:39
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FOund this Gret Eurasia Wrestling Tournament thing form youtube. There are a lot of matches by shuai jiao rules and they are pretty great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUkdSPNAflM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq4B3Gujyf8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-NgbEppCNY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKQEpZo8sUY So 2 rounds, no ippon, no ground game, you win by getting more points from throws and takedowns. You also get points if the other dude touches the ground via elbows, hands or knees while you remain standing or push the other guy out of the mat. I guess you could say it's a mix of sumo and judo? Anyways pretty cool matches and cool throws. Bjj kinda brought the idea how ground fighting is the end all be all of fighting but a good and succesful throw is just as much of a fighstopper as a knockout or a submission.
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Jul 26, 2015 22:41
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Cool. I'm surprised so many countries are happy enough with the ruleset to send representatives. But I have no idea how highly placed these guys are in whatever is the closest national sport/federation.
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Jul 26, 2015 23:48
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A Wry Smile posted:The real problem is that Judo actually teaches what Aikido only claims to have: a scalable, working skillset for physical encounters that's built around a philosophy of nonviolence. Aikido has no redeeming qualities in comparison. None. It's just showmanship, using compliant partners to make it appear that Aikidoka can go beyond the real limits of physical efficiency; throw a grown man with a literal flick of the wrist, etc. And there is such an undertone of "your faith in the idea is the ultimate source of your superhuman abilities" that any attempt to dissuade Aikidoka of their convictions is met with a shrug. Aikido doesn't work and it's wrong to sell it to people who actually want Judo and just don't know there's a difference. 100% this
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Jul 27, 2015 00:04
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2DCAT posted:100% this I guess the general rule (not necessarily counting the semi-contact stuff) is that your martial art is good if it's based on a competition ruleset and not a system. With rules, you try to find out the best way for you to be succesful with the given ruleset and as long as it is legal in the competition, anything goes. You spar and fight and see if you can do it or not and get better via time. You start to get more takedowns, submissions and knockouts in. If your art is based on a system, you try to the best of your abilities emulate what the grandmaster X has said to be the best things in fighting. If you are good at judo, sambo, wrestling, bjj, mma, muay thai, kickboxing, boxing or sanda, you can actually fight and defend yourself. If you are "good" at krav maga, aikido or wing chun, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. You can do the dictated drills and katas and techniques well , but can you fight? Probably not. Some rulesets like taekwondo or karate are kinda half-way, because there definetly is a lot of good stuff in them, but solely training with that ruleset makes your game kinda holey.
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Jul 27, 2015 00:37
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A Wry Smile posted:The real problem is that Judo actually teaches what Aikido only claims to have: a scalable, working skillset for physical encounters that's built around a philosophy of nonviolence. Aikido has no redeeming qualities in comparison. None. It's just showmanship, using compliant partners to make it appear that Aikidoka can go beyond the real limits of physical efficiency; throw a grown man with a literal flick of the wrist, etc. And there is such an undertone of "your faith in the idea is the ultimate source of your superhuman abilities" that any attempt to dissuade Aikidoka of their convictions is met with a shrug. Aikido doesn't work and it's wrong to sell it to people who actually want Judo and just don't know there's a difference.
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Jul 27, 2015 03:16
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ManOfTheYear posted:Probably not. Some rulesets like taekwondo or karate are kinda half-way, because there definetly is a lot of good stuff in them, but solely training with that ruleset makes your game kinda holey. I dont understand, Training in any one Martial art, be that BJJ, MT, Boxing, will leave your game holey unless you're training to compete in that one specific art. Heck training BJJ may leave you more prepared for "da streetz" than say TKD, but BJJ still lacks any technical training in striking and weapons, as well as verbal and situational awareness skills. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 03:27
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KildarX posted:I dont understand, Training in any one Martial art, be that BJJ, MT, Boxing, will leave your game holey unless you're training to compete in that one specific art. Muay Thai won't leave you with any glaring holes in your stand-up striking game, and BJJ won't leave you with any glaring holes in your ground game. He's saying that Karate and TKD will leave you with weird holes within their area of focus.
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Jul 27, 2015 03:47
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Muay Thai fighters aren't too bad with basic wrestling either to be honest. From all my grappling I was better in the clinch than most of the class but the better guys could hang with me. And of course I'd do poo poo like eat a solid knee to the body because I forgot about the hitting aspect looking for a knee tap. For self defense, I think they could keep on their feet and a solid knee or elbow plus shove and run would be effective. This is assuming you're not getting shanked or jumped by 5 guys but more things you could do something about. Also bravo on that "aikido is bad judo" post. 100% true. Aikido people are often in terrible shape too so I really can't even stand by it being a good workout - a belt holder in aikido.
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Jul 27, 2015 04:05
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The weird thing about the thread is having Aikido in the title when its really a combat sports heavy thread that I'd sum up as "Striking (mt/kickboxing) and Grappling (Wrestling/BJJ/judo/sambo) are primary topics, and HEMA stuff has a special exemption. TMA/Ninjakido discussion is tolerated as long as no claims are made towards efficacy in a hostile encounter with another human." Kekekela fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 10:16
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I'm so sad that I can't find morning judo classes, I'm stuck doing HEMA as my main form of violence until my September. I love HEMA but I really wanted to start judo this summer.
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Jul 27, 2015 10:31
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Ask Us About Martial Arts: Spar or Get Out
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Jul 27, 2015 11:18
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ManOfTheYear posted:I guess the general rule (not necessarily counting the semi-contact stuff) is that your martial art is good if it's based on a competition ruleset and not a system. With rules, you try to find out the best way for you to be succesful with the given ruleset and as long as it is legal in the competition, anything goes. You spar and fight and see if you can do it or not and get better via time. You start to get more takedowns, submissions and knockouts in. If your art is based on a system, you try to the best of your abilities emulate what the grandmaster X has said to be the best things in fighting. If you are good at judo, sambo, wrestling, bjj, mma, muay thai, kickboxing, boxing or sanda, you can actually fight and defend yourself. If you are "good" at krav maga, aikido or wing chun, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. You can do the dictated drills and katas and techniques well , but can you fight? Probably not. Some rulesets like taekwondo or karate are kinda half-way, because there definetly is a lot of good stuff in them, but solely training with that ruleset makes your game kinda holey. Agreed. Anything that allows for sparring at 100% allows for something that is effective. The 'martial arts' where you're told that you can't actually do something against someone because it'll kill them, or whatever BS they spew now equates to LOL. Even if what they're telling you is accurate, it's doing things under repetition, at full speed, and under pressure/duress that makes you good. Karate and TKD have taken the half-way approach these days under their current ruleset. Sadly, Judo (with their complete hatred of all things even closely resembling wrestling) and BJJ (with the ridiculous and antiquated point system) might be moving that direction in the future.
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Jul 27, 2015 11:31
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2DCAT posted:BJJ (with the ridiculous and antiquated point system) might be moving that direction in the future. This is an interesting topic, and I agree the points system is crap. I'm really liking the emergence of submission only formats, and it seems to be filtering down to the regional level. I'd really really like to see this trend continue as it promotes the kind of game I like to play as well as makes for way more entertaining matches to watch.
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Jul 27, 2015 11:50
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Pins are great but I like the urgency of a match where it must end in a sub,
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Jul 27, 2015 13:07
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Kekekela posted:TMA/Ninjakido discussion is tolerated as long as no claims are made towards efficacy in a hostile encounter with another human." I think we have recently demonstrated that this is not the case. This is a combat sports thread.
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Jul 27, 2015 15:58
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Dysgenesis posted:I think we have recently demonstrated that this is not the case. I'm sure discussion of stuff like wushu would be welcome here, it's just that nobody does it.
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Jul 27, 2015 16:34
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We've talked about non combat sport stuff it just seems to be less common and sorta dries up. And I remember there was a dude that did some kind of performance art that got a lot of questions and a really positive reception. Kendo fencing and European recreation stuff has been discussed a lot too. We've also discussed the moral and spiritual side as well from time to time. Idk I used to be more tolerant and inclusive, hence the OP title and some earlier posts. But over time I've lost patience with the bull shitters. Maybe it's seeing how many years and how much work it takes to develop these skills for real or maybe it's repetition of arguments plus all the proof you could ask via YouTube. I'm glad we can post here without dumb poo poo started by overcompensating fakers.
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Jul 27, 2015 16:44
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fatherdog posted:The most valuable training modalities for Actual Real World Self Defense are, in order from most valuable to least valuable The failure of most BJJ schools to adequately address 1) and 2), and sometimes 4) depending on the school, could be an interesting discussion, but it invariably seems to get brought up exclusively by people doing poo poo like aikido which fails to adequately address any of them.
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Jul 27, 2015 16:46
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Siivola posted:Ask Us About Martial Arts: Spar or Get Out This. 10 years ago I did some aikido, and later wing chun. And while there are some skills from both of those that I still use today, now that I go to a gym that has sparring in some form on a daily basis, I have no tolerance for people/arts that can't/won't test their claims.
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Jul 27, 2015 17:01
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fatherdog posted:The failure of most BJJ schools to adequately address 1) and 2), and sometimes 4) depending on the school, could be an interesting discussion, but it invariably seems to get brought up exclusively by people doing poo poo like aikido which fails to adequately address any of them. Say "my friend" a lot. If they get too close hit them with your surf board. Try not to go belly down in sand, it is not comfortable.
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Jul 27, 2015 17:05
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Longpoint 2015 was this past weekend. It's the largest HEMA event in the country and considered one of the most prestigious events outside of Swordfish (the unofficial world championship in Sweden). Check out the stream here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB8HoiDK0Bw (previously recorded of course). It gets started around 15 minutes in, and the competitions range from armored combat finals, sword and buckler, ringen, women's longsword, open longsword, cutting, maybe...uhhh...rapier? I was drunk the whole time. Also laugh at how bad we are at wrestling. In one weight division there's a guy who does judo/jiujitsu semi-professionally and he just dominates everyone.
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