WARHAMMER: If, during your hero phase, you pretend to ride an imaginary horse,

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Shadoer: Aug 31, 2011; Zoe Quinn is one of many women targeted by the Gamergate harassment campaign.

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Wow, former GW fantasy designer Tuomas Pinnen has weighed in with his Age of Sigmar thoughts. A bit surprised he ~~took GW money to promote the game~~ wrote such a positive review overall.

https://www.facebook.com/DesignbyTuomasPirinen/posts/1620250038223421

quote:

WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR -PRODUCT DECONSTRUCTION

OK, there is no way I can skip this, I've been buried with requests to write what I think about the new Warhammer: Age of Sigmar rules. Better get on with it then.

Disclaimer: All the thoughts and opinions here are my own, and do not reflect the official line of Games Workshop in any way, shape or form. I've not worked for GW in over a decade. I reserve the right to be completely wrong about this.

OVERVIEW AND PRODUCT STRATEGY

I've spent a fair amount of time reading the rules for Warhammer: the Age of Sigmar as well as the associated War Scrolls, and I've gone through the miniatures range and the background.

Key takeaways: Free, much streamlined rules with visually stunning (if 40K-ish) models that are very expensive speaks to me of a strategy: with these rules, many more new people can try the game and grasp the rules rapidly. Some of those will like the game, and a portion will be able to afford the cost associated with it, and without points limits on the armies, they can spend as little or as much as they wish on the game.

I see that the new miniature range will attract many collectors, and perhaps fewer die-hard gamers -possibly a valid approach, business-wise.

All in all this targets a very particular kind of consumer: Ideally affluent, social, and focused on collectability of very high-quality designs -very much the Apple tactic. It is a huge gamble to see if this is new direction works. It may also be that a completely new world will allow GW to target a new breed of gamers not exposed to Warhammer before.

To understand the shift in the game it is important to see that many things are in play here that your average hobbyist does not need to care about : the shelf space in the shops (Warhammer always took massive amount of space), the spiralling cost associated with making a physical product, the intense competition from both physical and digital games and the rise of 3D printing in the near future.

MINIATURES

When it comes to miniature sculpting, in the past the rigid unit hierarchy of classic Warhammer limited their poses and dimensions, which was always problem when compared to 40K. Thus I am not surprised to see the round bases and much larger models with far more articulation. They are eye-catching and have been made with collectability in mind. They also are so complex that the immediate danger of 3D printing will have been averted at least for a while.

Overall, many of the miniatures are stunningly well made, and I doubt another company can match the sheer intricate detail of these anytime soon. Whatever people like the designs themselves is another matter, but they do have that modern western mocvie/video game design vibe. As always, a matter of taste wheter you like this or not. It is certainly more mass-market.

THE RULES

The rules themselves have some very nifty ideas, and I am happy that some of the show real creativity and opportunities for interesting situations during game. I do like some of the risk/reward elements such as the charging rules. Some I do not understand, like gaining a major bonus if you won your previous match whenever that may have been. This sets off the game skewered towards one side.

In general, the new rules are streamlined, short, easy-to-absorb and will lead into quite straightforward games. Without tactical maneuvering and flank/back bonuses, the games will most likely become immense killing grounds in the middle, with one side completely wiped out, and the result having a lot to do with luck. I also see some worrying opportunities for cheating, especially with customizing models for extra reach. But I honestly also see a lot of opportunity for fun and tense moments too, in a casual gaming sort of way.

And those dreaded dancing rules... I am personally not a designer that likes to enforce the players to dance, sing or shout during a game: many gamers are introverted, or have disabilities or health conditions that do not allow them to perform a cha-cha-cha moves in the middle of the game. I see the wish to make Warhammer more social, but I would not have gone this way myself: rather, I would have given the players other rewards than game bonuses for awkward behavior.

All in all, the rules are simplified, streamlined, and clearly aimed at getting as many new people as possible to try out the rules.

THE WARHAMMER WORLD

I am of course sad to see Warhammer world go, as it was a labor of love for so many people for so many years, including me. It is one of the most iconic and enduring fantasy worlds ever created. But I do see some of the logic: the Warhammer world was complete, and a low-fantasy world. In order to bring more fantastical creatures and new armies (without making it impossible to fit all the new models into the Warhammer shops) a clean slate was the easy way forward. Personally hard for me to see, but if the gamble pays off it might well be worth it for GW.

I also hazard a guess that there will be a more advanced ruleset for more tactical and strategic players who have outgrown the 4-page rules. I especially think we will see supplements for magic. Without any further rules development, I am not sure about the longevity of the game. Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design, and I am not quite sure these rules are there yet. To keep customers returning, games need long-term engagement, and that requires more depth to delve into. I think we will see this in the coming months.

CLOSING THOUGHTS

As always, I wish GW and its staff the greatest of success -the livelihood of many families I dearly love depends on It. Many fantastically talented people work at the Studio and beyond whom I respect more than words can say. I see Age of Sigmar as a huge gamble, and it will be interesting to see if it pays off. I also feel that it may have been a gamble they had to take in one form or another. We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures.

Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they drat well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.

If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from when it comes to feeding our gaming habits.

Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness and fanboyism every time.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 14:26

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 05:57

Moola: Aug 16, 2006

ugh

# ? Jul 26, 2015 14:34

muggins: Mar 3, 2008; I regard the death and mangling of a couple thousand toy soldiers as a small affair, a kind of morning dash

I think perhaps he didn't want to poo poo on former colleagues.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 14:38

Helen Highwater: Feb 19, 2014; And furthermore; Grimey Drawer

Shadoer posted:

Wow, former GW fantasy designer Tuomas Pinnen has weighed in with his Age of Sigmar thoughts. A bit surprised he ~~took GW money to promote the game~~ wrote such a positive review overall.

https://www.facebook.com/DesignbyTuomasPirinen/posts/1620250038223421

There are early responses in the comments from myself and Andy Chambers too. Andy is being very diplomatic (which is understandable, he doesn't want to burn bridges and he still gets work writing novels for BL). Tuomas responded to me on my FB about his generally positive tone, saying that he hadn't played it and didn't want to give one side a bg club to whack the other side with.

Shadoer posted:

The change to 8th did get people made, just like the End Times got people made. Both made some major changes to the game that people either liked or didn't like, but a lot of it came down to a matter of taste.

Let's be real here. People got mad about 8th ed because the game they were playing had some changes to the rules that they didn't agree with. People are getting mad about AoS because the game they were playing no longer exists and won't be supported any more. There's no equivalence between the two situations.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 14:38

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

If you read it closely, he's very tactfully criticising certain elements.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 14:39

Post 9-11 User: Apr 14, 2010

Good to see that Warseer still has no clue how to manage a forum. Are users still allowed to post, "This sucks, my army is ruined!" in threads where you're supposed to post rumors, not change your life based on unsubstantiated scuttlebutt?

# ? Jul 26, 2015 14:42

MadWOPR: Jan 26, 2014

Edit: nm

# ? Jul 26, 2015 14:42

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

moths posted:

If you read it closely, he's very tactfully criticising certain elements.

Yeah, that's just "Well you go enjoy whatever you like I guess, also I hope my former coworkers don't end up homeless because of this clusterfuck".

# ? Jul 26, 2015 15:13

Clawtopsy: Dec 17, 2009; What a fascinatingly unusual cock. Now, allow me to show you my collection...

Beasts of War did a surprisingly glowing review of the new bow guys (Don't know the name, don't care to know the name. Stormbow Thunderarchers??) and my first thought was 'I wonder how much this cost'.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 15:21

TKIY: Nov 6, 2012; Grimey Drawer

Leperflesh posted:

Ahah! Age of Sigmar's balancing mechanic, working as intended!

Next time, you'll know to bring a Nagash model stashed away in your bag, so if your opponent stops deploying and has fewer models on the table, you'll remember the trivial way to protect yourself from this sudden death option.

Balanced.

The guy just posted on our forum about how fun the games were. I wonder if he enjoyed 'losing to massive shooting he was powerless to stop' more or less than 'winning without my taking a turn'.

:psyduck:

# ? Jul 26, 2015 15:33

berzerkmonkey: Jul 23, 2003

Sulecrist posted:

So I bought Frostgrave, Gardens of Morr, and some Walls & Fences!

Son of a bitch - I want a Garden of Morr set. Did they have extras? Are you in the US?

# ? Jul 26, 2015 15:41

TKIY: Nov 6, 2012; Grimey Drawer

berzerkmonkey posted:

Son of a bitch - I want a Garden of Morr set. Did they have extras? Are you in the US?

It's really hard to get still but I think there is one on the shelf at my (Canadian) GW. He had two and I bought one.

If you are willing to pay to ship I can try and get you one.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 15:56

berzerkmonkey: Jul 23, 2003

TKIY posted:

It's really hard to get still but I think there is one on the shelf at my (Canadian) GW. He had two and I bought one.

If you are willing to pay to ship I can try and get you one.

I PM'd you and Sulecrist. Thanks!

# ? Jul 26, 2015 16:05

Moola: Aug 16, 2006

WAR FOOT posted:

Beasts of War did a surprisingly glowing review of the new bow guys (Don't know the name, don't care to know the name. Stormbow Thunderarchers??) and my first thought was 'I wonder how much this cost'.

HOLY poo poo �60!

# ? Jul 26, 2015 16:56

Doctor Borris: May 29, 2014; Sometimes Serious.
Sometimes Satirical.
Never Ever Sarcastic.
Ever.

Moola posted:

HOLY poo poo �60!

SAve even more and grab some bases while you are there for only 27 pounds!

# ? Jul 26, 2015 17:20

drgnvale: Apr 30, 2004; A sword is not cutlery!

berzerkmonkey posted:

Son of a bitch - I want a Garden of Morr set. Did they have extras? Are you in the US?

I bought one from a 3p seller on Amazon last week. Was pretty close to msrp with shipping though.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 17:30

Avenging Dentist: Oct 1, 2005; oh my god is that a circular saw that does not go in my mouth aaaaagh

moths posted:

If you read it closely, he's very tactfully criticising certain elements.

Yeah, the last time this was posted in this thread, people got upset that he and Andy Chambers weren't ripping GW a new one, but I'm really not sure why anyone would have expected that. It's generally not wise to badmouth former employers if you like getting hired. I don't know if Tuomas could have been more negative without burning bridges.

Post 9-11 User posted:

Good to see that Warseer still has no clue how to manage a forum.

Stop making me want to resurrect Eternity of War.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 17:32

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

drgnvale posted:

I bought one from a 3p seller on Amazon last week. Was pretty close to msrp with shipping though.

poo poo now I kind of want one for Malifaux.

:kingsley:

Aaaw yeah my local GW still has one.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 17:34

Renfield: Feb 29, 2008

Moola posted:

HOLY poo poo �60!

That's a Web-Bundle for 2 boxes - so there �30 for a box of 5 models.

�6 Each.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 17:35

Moola: Aug 16, 2006

oh thats pretty normal for GW then

Same as Terminators

still loving ridiculous

# ? Jul 26, 2015 17:58

Not a viking: Aug 2, 2008; Feels like I just got laid

These jewel-like objects must be more expensive than actual jewels by now.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 18:15

vintagepurple: Jan 31, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

I love how people try to justify the GW pricing scheme with "paying for quality." gently caress that, for every good citadel sculpt these days there's another that's godawful. Slapping ugly-yet-intricate details over every surface of your mans is not quality.

Then you get the extra-special hams who will actively poo poo on you if you complain about being priced out of the hobby.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 18:28

Rulebook Heavily: Sep 18, 2010; by FactsAreUseless

Not a viking posted:

These jewel-like objects must be more expensive than actual jewels by now.

A single Sigmarine will get you quite the selection.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 18:45

Pierzak: Oct 30, 2010

vintagepurple posted:

I love how people try to justify the GW pricing scheme with "paying for quality."

Please tell me what quality I'm paying for when I'm expected to pay more than the same number of Infinity minis which have excellent detail and are made of metal.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:08

Scowny: Jul 11, 2006; Nice guy, that Kharne

Avenging Dentist posted:

Stop making me want to resurrect Eternity of War.

No forum will ever be as great as EoW. Ogre dicks for everyone.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:13

everythingWasBees: Jan 9, 2013

Rulebook Heavily posted:

A single Sigmarine will get you quite the selection.

AoS army using actual jewels. You might come out ahead in cost...

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:14

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Pierzak posted:

Please tell me what quality I'm paying for when I'm expected to pay more than the same number of Infinity minis which have excellent detail and are made of metal.

GW's quality lead is completely gone, of course, but: plastic is a hell of a lot easier to work with than metal, from a modeling perspective.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:15

Der Waffle Mous: Nov 27, 2009; In the grim future, there is only commerce.

I know the comparison keeps getting brought up every dozen pages or so.

But getting into gundam kits has really underlined to me how bullshit GW's "paying for quality" sentiment is.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:21

FrostyPox: Feb 8, 2012

Pierzak posted:

Please tell me what quality I'm paying for when I'm expected to pay more than the same number of Infinity minis which have excellent detail and are made of metal.

Uhm, it's a great value because you also get hundreds of extra bits for other modelling projects the bits will sit in a bin, unused, until you just lose them or throw them out

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:23

Renfield: Feb 29, 2008

everythingWasBees posted:

AoS army using actual jewels. You might come out ahead in cost...

Did your Convergence box arrive yet Bees ?

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:31

everythingWasBees: Jan 9, 2013

Renfield posted:

Did your Convergence box arrive yet Bees ?

Yes! Sorry I've been travelling.
Gonna work on cleaning up the parts today I think.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:32

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

It's amazing to me that the alternate bits aren't paired up with a core sprue and sold as a different kit.

Except then it would be obvious that GW was being cheap and recycling design elements.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:33

Genghis Cohen: Jun 29, 2013

FrostyPox posted:

Uhm, it's a great value because you also get hundreds of extra bits for other modelling projects the bits will sit in a bin, unused, until you just lose them or throw them out

Yeah I think the GW kits have kind of passed the peak of 'awesome, lots of cool bits, these will be terrific' (I don't mind having an unused box, things can usually be repurposed for something and plunged into the abyss of 'paying �10 per plastic model because it comes with 7 different mutually exclusive sets of weapons'

Like it's useful for armies with a lot of interchangeable troops (looking at you space marines) and for tanks or anything you fancy magnetising, but for most armies it adds more to the cost than it does to the value, if that makes sense.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:34

Moola: Aug 16, 2006

Der Waffle Mous posted:

I know the comparison keeps getting brought up every dozen pages or so.

But getting into gundam kits has really underlined to me how bullshit GW's "paying for quality" sentiment is.

errr those are toys for CHILDREN

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:44

Helen Highwater: Feb 19, 2014; And furthermore; Grimey Drawer

Genghis Cohen posted:

Yeah I think the GW kits have kind of passed the peak of 'awesome, lots of cool bits, these will be terrific' (I don't mind having an unused box, things can usually be repurposed for something and plunged into the abyss of 'paying �10 per plastic model because it comes with 7 different mutually exclusive sets of weapons'

Like it's useful for armies with a lot of interchangeable troops (looking at you space marines) and for tanks or anything you fancy magnetising, but for most armies it adds more to the cost than it does to the value, if that makes sense.

Not for GW it doesn't. For injection moulded plastics, the materials cost is so low, you might as well call it free. All of the cost goes into tooling and the production overheads. There is a difference in those costs between a big sprue and a smaller one - you might need different machines and the cost of the tool itself goes up as it gets bigger because it's basically about half a ton of stainless-steel - but the cost of a sprue with lots of bits on it and a sprue the same size with fewer bits isn't so much. The only thing other than size that adds to the cost of a tool are cams, these are bits that move independently so that complex shapes with undercuts or lateral holes can be moulded. I don't recall any GW sprues that I've seen recently that required those and I imagine that avoiding the need for them would be a strong design imperative for GW designers. So the cost to GW is effectively nil while the value add is enormous. Making those weapon options as different sprues doesn't just add a tooling cost, it also adds to the inventory cost, packaging, distribution and so on. The bullet point about all the weapon options their kit can build is just the cherry on the top for GW.

# ? Jul 26, 2015 19:54