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coincidentally the madonna-whore complex is also why it bothers you
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Jul 27, 2015 10:57
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Endorph posted:coincidentally the madonna-whore complex is also why it bothers you Sharkopath posted:She's 14.
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Jul 27, 2015 16:40
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Baps are good
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Jul 27, 2015 17:34
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Endorph posted:the sexual aspects are the entire point You don't understand if something is in any way sexualized it doesn't belong in king of anims madoka
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Jul 27, 2015 17:36
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can't believe there's sexual imagery in a show about one big puberty metaphor
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Jul 27, 2015 17:41
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drat look at that slut *sweats uncomfortably* I can see her entire shoulder
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Jul 27, 2015 17:47
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Lord Justice posted:I'm aware of the concepts you're presenting, my issue isn't with that in general, it's how it's applied to Madoka in particular. Madoka succeeded without the "sex sells" mantra, it is one of the primary reasons why I like it. Madoka has been and should be above such crass marketing tactics within the anime itself, and it is disappointing to see Ume Aoki seemingly forget this with Demon Homura's design. My argument isn't with the intent of the design, but rather that the design shouldn't exist at all in its current form. Madoka lives on sex sells. Look at Mami's character design, the transformation sequences, and Sayaka's costume. Just because it's not panty shots all the way down doesn't mean they didn't try to sexualize middle school girls. Stop being obtuse. Sharkopath posted:She's 14. And the Otaku love that poo poo. Just look at all the doujins out there for it. Guess who the market is for the 70+ dollar JPN Limited Edition BDs? PerrineClostermann fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 17:47
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Namtab posted:drat look at that slut *sweats uncomfortably* I can see her entire shoulder lol
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Jul 27, 2015 17:49
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Namtab posted:drat look at that slut *sweats uncomfortably* I can see her entire shoulder I'm dying
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Jul 27, 2015 18:06
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it's kind of surprising that a show by Gen Urobuchi who wrote porn games and Akiyuki Shinbou who did an anime that starts off on a thirty-second pantyshot wasn't incredibly sexualized, really.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:10
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PerrineClostermann posted:Madoka lives on sex sells. Look at Mami's character design, the transformation sequences, and Sayaka's costume. Just because it's not panty shots all the way down doesn't mean they didn't try to sexualize middle school girls. I'm sorry, but pointing out a few limited instances (especially in regards to the series), doesn't equate to Madoka relying on sexualizing its characters for selling purposes. Part of the point of Madoka is that it is seperate from your typical Seinen Mahou Shoujo, it never relied on merchandising (even if it does exist), instead focusing on telling a specific story using the genre as a base. The anime never "sells out" within its own space. And while you can make some arguments about the sexualized nature of Mami in general or Sayaka's outfit, they're very minor elements, and neither one is every really utilized in such a manner within the series anyway. Hell, the movie adaptions actually move away from it, such as removing the nudity from the transformations, which was a very welcome change and I don't know why it didn't carry over to Rebellion like it should have. As for Demon Homura, while the argument of sexualization due to her narrative is valid in a sense, I still don't believe it was necessary. What would have been lost if her outfit looked similar but was more reserved? Part of the issue as well is that Homura and Madoka's relationship is quite complex and in a way, moves beyond your usual love story. It's twisted and false, with their seperate idealisms and differing forms of love creating a compelling relationship in narrative terms. It doesn't need sexual elements to do any of that and introducing them feels detrimental, as there is far more going on with their relationship. Essentially, my argument boils down to being strongly against sexualization in Madoka. Whether backed up by the narrative or not, I feel it doesn't aid the work in any manner, and is explicitly detrimental. Madoka doesn't need sexualization to be successful, it's proved that already.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:17
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I am reasonably sure, without doing the research, that madoka aims for max merch salesPerrineClostermann posted:And the Otaku love that poo poo. Just look at all the doujins out there for it. Guess who the market is for the 70+ dollar JPN Limited Edition BDs? Basically this. Madoka is not that deep or different
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Jul 27, 2015 18:21
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youre watching a show about 14 year old girls made for 30 year old men
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Jul 27, 2015 18:22
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Actually, im 26
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Jul 27, 2015 18:23
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Homura's witchy dress is pretty, well that's my input, thanks for reading
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Jul 27, 2015 18:23
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Lord Justice posted:As for Demon Homura, while the argument of sexualization due to her narrative is valid in a sense, I still don't believe it was necessary. What would have been lost if her outfit looked similar but was more reserved? I think a lot of valid arguments for what that design choice adds have already been presented, but unironically I think if it makes you uncomfortable that's also thematically appropriate. In transforming, Homura has abandoned her usual (self-destructive) emotional restraint to pursue her own ardent desires and she doesn't give a drat what anyone else thinks about it. She's going to wear a silly dress and she's going to dance in the moonlight, dad. And none of what she's doing is a particularly good idea and it's not even especially likely to make her happy, but she's still doing it. Basically: a cartoon duck posted:can't believe there's sexual imagery in a show about one big puberty metaphor In other circumstances I'd more concerned about the association of sexuality with evil but it's an image that has powerful resonance and the ending of Rebellion is shot through with enough ambiguity that I'm ok with it- despite her protestations otherwise, the film isn't so pat that 'Homura is evil' is a reasonable statement. And honestly part of that ambiguity, to me, is that it's a pretty dress that so greatly contrasts with her previous get-up and her transformation into it is so clearly joyful, despite everything that comes afterwards.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:47
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Namtab posted:drat look at that slut *sweats uncomfortably* I can see her entire shoulder It's Mahouka all over again.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:48
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I'm curious what your take on the purported yuri subtexts are in the anime. Do you believe the relationships to be purely platonic friendships? I have a very hard time accepting that and it seems it would clash greatly with your idea that the anime is unique in its extremely low amount of sexuality.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:52
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My thoughts on Yuri is that it's good.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:56
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red and blue make a cute couple
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Jul 27, 2015 18:58
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Namtab posted:red and blue make a cute couple I didn't like that ship much the first time or two I watched it but it has really grown on me in subsequent viewings. Kyoko's lines when fighting Octavia are very poignant and telling. I couldn't help but notice in Rebellion during the scene where the girls are fighting homura that they were holding hands giving a good nod towards the ship being slightly above your average fan cannon.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:06
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Namtab posted:Ume Aoki owns 
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Jul 27, 2015 19:08
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jiffypop45 posted:I'm curious what your take on the purported The yuri subtexts exist as a visual extension of the present relationship. It acts as a referencing vehicle, merely backing up what is already present. In terms of relationships, the only one based in Eros is maybe Homura, depending on your interpretation of events, and it is unrequited anyway, given that Madoka's love for Homura is based in Agape and Phillia. Every other relationship isn't based in Eros either, Kyouko and Sayaka are Phillia, Mami and Nagisa are Storge, Kyouko and Mami are Storge, etc etc. Basically, while yuri subtexts exist, it doesn't feel like yuri shoujo ai, and none of the current relationships are defined by that in a traditional sense. In other words, you can have the aspects of love within a narrative without sexuality, which, while I have complaints about some parts, Madoka pretty much pulls off. Demon Homura's outfit, while irritating to me, is overall a minor part of the work, and the rest of their relationship is not defined by, nor really references, explicit sexuality.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:11
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I also liked Howling Mad Murdock and giggled like mad when they introduced him in the A-team movie.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:16
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Namtab posted:red and blue make a cute couple *bad poo poo was fanservicey as gently caress in the movie. "I have all this character baggage but the most important thing ever in my life was the red bitch I fought with for a week before I died from grief over the boy I liked and the hopelessness of the world." Sayaka acknowledged Kyoko and admitted she wasn't as horrible as she thought at first glance, but she still rejected Kyoko's Apple in the church. Come on. Build that poo poo up better if you're going to make it a thing. I'm all for cute lesbians but you're trying to take yourself seriously.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:19
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Lord Justice posted:The yuri subtexts exist as a visual extension of the present relationship. It acts as a referencing vehicle, merely backing up what is already present. In terms of relationships, the only one based in Eros is maybe Homura, depending on your interpretation of events, and it is unrequited anyway, given that Madoka's love for Homura is based in Agape and Phillia. Every other relationship isn't based in Eros either, Kyouko and Sayaka are Phillia, Mami and Nagisa are Storge, Kyouko and Mami are Storge, etc etc. Basically, while yuri subtexts exist, it doesn't feel like yuri shoujo ai, and none of the current relationships are defined by that in a traditional sense. In other words, you can have the aspects of love within a narrative without sexuality, which, while I have complaints about some parts, Madoka pretty much pulls off. Demon Homura's outfit, while irritating to me, is overall a minor part of the work, and the rest of their relationship is not defined by, nor really references, explicit sexuality. Could you at least try and be more concise so these are readable? Same
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Jul 27, 2015 19:24
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PerrineClostermann posted:*bad They did, though. Sayaka in Rebellion is a Magical Woman, which is in part defined by growing up and moving past the issues inherent to wish fulfillment. Sayaka in the series was a wreck and not of sound mind after becoming a Magical Girl, and was lashing out at everyone, not just Kyouko. By your definition, she also shouldn't be friends with Madoka either considering she got really angry at her in the bus station. Essentially, Sayaka grew up, and realized that Kyouko wasn't as bad as she thought. As well, her regret is over Kyouko's sacrifice, Kyouko attempted to save Sayaka and died in the process. Why wouldn't Sayaka try to make up for that? Sayaka as part of the Law of Cycles is aware of the debt she has with Kyouko, and this is why their relationship exists the way it does in Rebellion.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:27
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Brevity is the soul of wit
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Jul 27, 2015 19:29
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littleorv posted:My thoughts on Yuri is that it's good. Which greek word makes the best yuri?
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Jul 27, 2015 19:29
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Lord Justice posted:The yuri subtexts exist as a visual extension of the present relationship. It acts as a referencing vehicle, merely backing up what is already present. In terms of relationships, the only one based in Eros is maybe Homura, depending on your interpretation of events, and it is unrequited anyway, given that Madoka's love for Homura is based in Agape and Phillia. Every other relationship isn't based in Eros either, Kyouko and Sayaka are Phillia, Mami and Nagisa are Storge, Kyouko and Mami are Storge, etc etc. Basically, while yuri subtexts exist, it doesn't feel like yuri shoujo ai, and none of the current relationships are defined by that in a traditional sense. In other words, you can have the aspects of love within a narrative without sexuality, which, while I have complaints about some parts, Madoka pretty much pulls off. Demon Homura's outfit, while irritating to me, is overall a minor part of the work, and the rest of their relationship is not defined by, nor really references, explicit sexuality. im glad you stopped just short of saying homura turned evil because she had sexy thoughts for someone, unlike ever other teenager in the show
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Jul 27, 2015 19:29
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While I don't mind the Sayaka/Kyouko stuff (it's not like their death in the series wasn't a blatant Utena callback anyway) I don't think arguing for it as a 'well obviously Sayaka realized she owes Kyouko one so it makes sense' is a great approach. It does make sense for them to get along as friends at least, though.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:30
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I think confidently classifying the relationships of the characters using the Greek forms is over-egging the pudding a bit, especially given they're more or less intentionally ambiguous. Yuri is cool and fun but I'd agree that Kyouko and Sayaka's interactions in the movie didn't feel very organic. That's just part and parcel of the fanservice (in the non-sexual sense) of the movie, though. I learned something today.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:31
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The devil Homura figure is pretty cool, and looks good next to the Godoka figure. Also, stop freaking the gently caress out over cleavage, it fits thematically and sexuality won't kill you. Yes, some works are over-sexualized, but that doesn't mean sexualization is inherently bad.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:33
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Homura's cleavage sucks in that picture anyways.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:37
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littleorv posted:Homura's cleavage sucks in that picture anyways. Give it a few years, and her baps will be hype
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Jul 27, 2015 19:41
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Lord Justice posted:The yuri subtexts exist as a visual extension of the present relationship. It acts as a referencing vehicle, merely backing up what is already present. In terms of relationships, the only one based in Eros is maybe Homura, depending on your interpretation of events, and it is unrequited anyway, given that Madoka's love for Homura is based in Agape and Phillia. Every other relationship isn't based in Eros either, Kyouko and Sayaka are Phillia, Mami and Nagisa are Storge, Kyouko and Mami are Storge, etc etc. Basically, while yuri subtexts exist, it doesn't feel like yuri shoujo ai, and none of the current relationships are defined by that in a traditional sense. In other words, you can have the aspects of love within a narrative without sexuality, which, while I have complaints about some parts, Madoka pretty much pulls off. Demon Homura's outfit, while irritating to me, is overall a minor part of the work, and the rest of their relationship is not defined by, nor really references, explicit sexuality.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:47
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Endorph posted:i was joking about the madonna-whore complex
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Jul 27, 2015 19:48
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I feel it's worth pointing out that I'm not necessarily against sexuality in artistic works in general, just Madoka in particular. Oyasumi Punpun is my favourite manga, and sexuality is a core feature of that work. Actually, Oyasumi Punpun is a good example here, as it shows how to handle sexuality in an artistic work.
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Jul 27, 2015 20:00
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I'm going to start making Lord Justice's posts concise for everyone in this thread. Lord Justice posted:I feel it's worth pointing out that I'm not necessarily against sexuality in artistic works in general, just Madoka in particular. Oyasumi Punpun is my favourite manga, and sexuality is a core feature of that work. Actually, Oyasumi Punpun is a good example here, as it shows how to handle sexuality in an artistic work. Translation: I'm not opposed to sexuality being in artistic works as long as it is handled well.
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Jul 27, 2015 20:03
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littleorv posted:I'm going to start making Lord Justice's posts concise for everyone in this thread. Thanks, I offer an alt translation tho Lord Justice posted:I feel it's worth pointing out that I'm not necessarily against sexuality in artistic works in general, just Madoka in particular. Oyasumi Punpun is my favourite manga, and sexuality is a core feature of that work. Actually, Oyasumi Punpun is a good example here, as it shows how to handle sexuality in an artistic work. Im hype for sexy anims, but not madoka, for some reason
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Jul 27, 2015 20:04
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