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Namtab posted:Hot babe is going out, puts on a sexy dress, is now no longer a person (Lord justice, 2015)
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Jul 28, 2015 18:02
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rip, to the personhood of all ten million kill la kill cosplayers
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Jul 28, 2015 18:05
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Namtab posted:Hot babe is going out, puts on a sexy dress Tuned out after that bit.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:07
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Endorph posted:rip, to the personhood of all ten million kill la kill cosplayers
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Jul 28, 2015 18:10
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Endorph, if you're going to quote me, at least quote my entire post when it's relevant, thank you:Lord Justice posted:The answer is implicit in the definition, sexualization of women is the objectification of women, it turns them into objects and dehumanizes them. Within an artistic work, this means that a female character is delegitimized as a character. Note that this is a different from a female character expressing her sexuality, which is fine in a general sense, I just don't like its presence in Madoka. I've been quite clear that my definition of sexualization is a narrow one focused only on the objectification of women. The expression of sexuality within a work by a female character is different and perfectly fine. Does Demon Homura's outfit fall into category? This is kind of the issue, to me the issue feels blurred, and it's hard to separate the character's motivation with the outside influence on Aoki. More to the point, my opinion has always been such that Madoka keep away from sexual themes, as I don't believe the work needs it, and this has been my principle argument against Demon Homura's outfit.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:13
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Lord Justice posted:I've been quite clear that my definition of sexualization is a narrow one focused only on the objectification of women.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:13
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Lord Justice posted:I've been quite clear that my definition of sexualization is a narrow one focused only on the objectification of women. The expression of sexuality within a work by a female character is different and perfectly fine. Does Demon Homura's outfit fall into category? This is kind of the issue, to me the issue feels blurred, and it's hard to separate the character's motivation with the outside influence on Aoki. More to the point, my opinion has always been such that Madoka keep away from sexual themes, as I don't believe the work needs it, and this has been my principle argument against Demon Homura's outfit. You're an idiot tho, because Namtab posted:Ultimately, homuras dress is really tame for anime and fits the shows usual allegories of puberty and love perfectly. Homura has abandoned her usual conservative look in order to express her love towards meguka. she's not being sexualised, she's expressing an element of sexuality
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Jul 28, 2015 18:17
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You're being kinda creepy, as tho the fact you can see her collarbone means that she's become an unperson
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Jul 28, 2015 18:18
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More to the point while I accept every interpretation of a thing is potentially valid, when everyone is saying you're being weird, creepy and obsessive it may be time to reexamine things, perhaps watch it a 17th time
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Jul 28, 2015 18:22
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Lord Justice posted:I've been quite clear that my definition of sexualization is a narrow one focused only on the objectification of women. Yes, that's why we make fun of it! On a more serious note: you don't loving get to define your (common, widely known) terms after the fact, that's just weak. trucutru fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 18:23
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I don't believe Madoka is inspired by Doctor Faust rather Emile Zola's Nana. Wherein French peasants believe you can cure flatulence by leaving a glass of water overnight and letting it suck up the moonbeams and then drinking it. Moonbeams cure flatulence. Homura is symbolically connected to the moon, evidenced by the moon at the en d of Rebellion, Madoka is the sun because of her godhood. Homura's ultimate goal is to use the power of the moon to cure Madoka of her intense farts. Walpurgis Night is a metaphor for the night they had bean casserole for dinner. By taking away her right to unpleasant human functions Homura is sexually objectifying her.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:24
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and for real though dude, this is a hell of your own making. if you'd just said 'i can see what they were going for with devil homura's design but i dont really care for it, it feels a little cheesecake' nobody would have given a poo poo, but instead you typed so many goddamn words that you just started saying weird, creepy poo poo because when you type so many words about something you so clearly barely understand you're bound to stumble into something stupid.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:24
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Namtab posted:Real talk though Lord justice, using all these big words don't actually make the content of your posts smarter, you just look pretentious
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Jul 28, 2015 18:27
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Namtab posted:You're being kinda creepy, as tho the fact you can see her collarbone means that she's become an unperson You're extrapolating my argument to an extreme I never actually said or intended. Is Homura no longer a person because of the dress? No, obviously not. Sexualization is never a critique of the character, it is a critique on the person who created the character. What is Ume Aoki saying with this design, what are its origins, etc? There are legitimate reasons for its creation, yes, and I'm not disputing those. My argument is the sexualized aspect of it is speech from a bad source.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:31
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Lord Justice posted:My argument is the sexualized aspect of it is speech from a bad source. Speech from a bad source?
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Jul 28, 2015 18:32
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Namtab posted:Speech from a bad source?
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Jul 28, 2015 18:32
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Boobs are no joke
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Jul 28, 2015 18:33
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Ultimately though lord justice, the principle for your argument is that madoka is inexplicably inherantly above having anything sexy at all, despite several posters saying: 1.) No it isn't, why would it be? 2.) The reason behind the design choice and how it reflects on the story and theme 3.) It's not even that sexy
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Jul 28, 2015 18:34
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When I first saw Demon Homura's new outfit I thought it was silly. But all of these posts have made me conclude that it is actually sexy as hell.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:34
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Like tbh we can only go so many rounds of Lord Justice repeating himself and everyone saying he's being silly about Homura's bare shoulders before we're at an impasse cake song best song
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Jul 28, 2015 18:34
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Lord Justice posted:What is Ume Aoki saying with this design, what are its origins, etc? Serious answer: that Homura is the anti-madoka (or her opposite, you get the idea). You can dig deeper into it, but that's basically it. All the motifs and details do add to it and you can analyze the poo poo out of them if you wish but, in the end, it is neither complicated or profound. trucutru fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 18:35
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Lestaki posted:Like tbh we can only go so many rounds of Lord Justice repeating himself and everyone saying he's being silly about Homura's bare shoulders before we're at an impasse I broke wicked hate in the mahouka thread, and I can break lord justice
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Jul 28, 2015 18:35
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Namtab posted:I broke wicked hate in the mahouka thread, and I can break lord justice I will follow you
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Jul 28, 2015 18:36
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Namtab's willpower is unbreakable, so I'll believe in him.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:40
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Srice posted:Namtab's willpower is unbreakable, so I'll believe in him. Namtab's Bizarre Adventure: Namtab is Unbreakable
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Jul 28, 2015 18:44
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Namtab posted:Speech from a bad source? The influence of patriarchal society and how it approaches women. Which is admittedly minor in this case, but I still feel it's there and why I'm critical of it. Lestaki posted:Like tbh we can only go so many rounds of Lord Justice repeating himself and everyone saying he's being silly about Homura's bare shoulders before we're at an impasse Pretty much this. I will admit my argument is subjective, and a lot of it is due less to the sexualized aspect of the outfit and more I just don't like it, and I don't like my favourite character wearing it. Is there good reasons for it to exist? Yes, Space Flower was quite on-point. Is Homura expressing her sexuality within the context of the narrative? Yes, I just wish she wasn't because I'd rather Madoka not use those themes. I've gone into the sexualization argument enough and it's clear it's not going anywhere, so I'll stop here.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:46
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I put a lot of thought into my theory please take it seriously
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Jul 28, 2015 18:47
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Let me see, madoka the seemingly weak-willed girl who embodies selfless love becomes a goddess wearing a cute white dress with full angel wings. While hormura, the seemingly strong-willed girl who embodies selfish love* becomes a demon wearing a sexy-ish black dress with fake angel wings. I think there may be a connection between the two but I can't see it. *That may not be the proper term. please don't kill me
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Jul 28, 2015 18:48
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Lord Justice posted:Pretty much this. I will admit my argument is subjective, and a lot of it is due less to the sexualized aspect of the outfit and more I just don't like it, and I don't like my favourite character wearing it. Is there good reasons for it to exist? Yes, Space Flower was quite on-point. Is Homura expressing her sexuality within the context of the narrative? Yes, I just wish she wasn't because I'd rather Madoka not use those themes. I've gone into the sexualization argument enough and it's clear it's not going anywhere, so I'll stop here. I've pretty much just been calling out for you to admit this rather than trying to claim that madoka is high art somehow inherantly above any sexualisation.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:50
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Also to post normally instead of writing pretentious essays, but I'll accept this victory
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Jul 28, 2015 18:50
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Congrats Namtab. I am impressed.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:51
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Lord Justice posted:The influence of patriarchal society and how it approaches women. Which is admittedly minor in this case, but I still feel it's there and why I'm critical of it.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:56
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trucutru posted:Let me see, madoka the seemingly weak-willed girl who embodies selfless love becomes a goddess wearing a cute white dress with full angel wings. While hormura, the seemingly strong-willed girl who embodies selfish love becomes a demon wearing a sexy-ish black dress with fake angel wings. Godoka and Demon Homura are the exact same thing and Godoka is arguably far more evil than Demon Homura is. The creation of a Demon is predicated on selfish love for another, which is quite evident with Madoka and her love for all Magical Girls at the expense of said girls and everyone around them. Godoka believes that Sayaka's death was a good thing, that Kyousuke's hand was worth Sayaka no longer existing in the world. She does this with full knowledge of how Sayaka's death affects the world (see: Sayaka's funeral, or the issues of her apparent suicide in regards to Hitomi and Kyousuke). Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if Hitomi blamed herself for Sayaka dying, and I doubt Kyousuke would agree that his hand was worth Sayaka's life. Demon Homura, in contrast, gives Sayaka her life back, and repairs the problems between the three. In a sense, taking Sayaka's knowledge was necessary, as she was blinded by Madoka's toxic idealism and seemed perfectly fine with sacrificing herself even if said action hurt everyone around her. Now, extrapolate, to hundreds of thousands to millions of Magical Girls, and you'll get similar scenarios for each and Godoka saying it is ok for this to exist. Nothing Demon Homura did compares to that, and really, what Demon Homura did was a far better solution to Madoka's attempt. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 18:57
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Endorph posted:patriarchal western society, as embodied by a gay japanese lady loving gaijins infiltrate everything
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Jul 28, 2015 18:57
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It's like yeah if that's just your preference then I find it kind of silly but whatever, it's all good. Personally I think Homura is best girl and I'm happy to see her expressing herself in new ways after an indeterminate amount of time spent time travelling and trying to be some kind of stoic beep boop Madoka-saving/world-protecting robot (without much success because she's a teenage girl). Now she has a silly dress and she dances and she's still miserable but at least she's changing and has the potential to grow again. I also agree that an interesting part of the movie is that Homura produces a superficially superior world (Madoka is with her friends/family and the Law of Cycles is protected from the Incubators by Homura) for pretty lousy reasons.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:58
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trucutru posted:Let me see, madoka the seemingly weak-willed girl who embodies selfless love becomes a goddess wearing a cute white dress with full angel wings. While hormura, the seemingly strong-willed girl who embodies selfish love* becomes a demon wearing a sexy-ish black dress with fake angel wings. Hey remember how Princess Tutu has literally this same motif with Tutu and Kraehe, just to name one other example in Madoka's genre, probably because implying contrast through visual design and character expression in this manner is a tried and true storytelling convention and Madoka Magica is not any different in this manner. This whole hoopla about Homura's sexuality and what it means just confuses me because the answer is right there front and center.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:59
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Kyouko is my fave
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Jul 28, 2015 18:59
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Remember the ep where she ate the food?
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Jul 28, 2015 18:59
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Namtab posted:Remember the ep where she ate the food? lewd
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Jul 28, 2015 19:01
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Lord Justice posted:Godoka and Demon Homura are the exact same thing and Godoka is arguely far more evil than Demon Homura is. Indeed, and you'll find that 99% of the people who have seen this show disagree with you. I think that's all I have to say about that.
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Jul 28, 2015 19:01
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