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I wasn't all that shocked or appalled with it but I guess that means I've spent too much time on the internet. I found Janath's treatment more disturbing since it was much more drawn out and of a more fleshed out character.
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Jul 12, 2015 21:30
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anilEhilated posted:IIRC Erikson actually had some pretty good words to say on that. I can't find the quote but the gist of it was that a)the hobbling was a real custom some tribes performed and b)you're meant to feel uncomfortable reading it; there's no point in depicting rape as anything but monstrous. One tension in this that Erikson wants to both use rape/hobbling as a signifier of bad or evil characters and depict societies in various situations of "barbarism" which creates a weird tension where we're never asked to imagine the "good guys" participating in these barbaric acts. The hobbling act in particular is depicted as gruesome but also as socially acceptable. But of course it's only the evil antagonist Barghast that hobble - Humbrall Taur and Tool never do and we're not even shown a hint that they might be active participants in other hobblings and subsequent rapes even though the logic of social acceptance makes it pretty clear that they would. Trying to have his cake and eat it too with this undercuts both points. A similar tension is present when Karsa rapes women in a village he conquers. Erikson shows it but also dresses it up a little (and then have the women make quasi-excuses for it afterwards!) to maintain some reader sympathy for Karsa.
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Jul 12, 2015 21:50
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anilEhilated posted:IIRC Erikson actually had some pretty good words to say on that. I can't find the quote but the gist of it was that a)the hobbling was a real custom some tribes performed and b)you're meant to feel uncomfortable reading it; there's no point in depicting rape as anything but monstrous. It was pretty much this, yeah, and basically meant to give a much truer view of the Barghest and their customs. In MoI they very much had a near "noble savage" thing going on because you don't get a really good look at their culture, and were very likable from my recollection. Then it turns out their culture contains some absolutely loving horrific customs, and maybe these people aren't so likable anymore.
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Jul 12, 2015 21:54
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Sir Bruce posted:One tension in this that Erikson wants to both use rape/hobbling as a signifier of bad or evil characters and depict societies in various situations of "barbarism" which creates a weird tension where we're never asked to imagine the "good guys" participating in these barbaric acts. That's why they're the "good guys?" I don't know, the way it seems to me, the various barbarous people are all quite barbarous, and when they're not, it's rarely a collective thing and usually the result of a small minority of relatively good people flexing their will. The "good" Barghast all went "bad" real quick when the very few "good" ringleaders died or vanished. The point about Karsa is totally valid, though. A variety of rape apologia going on with that early encounter.
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Jul 12, 2015 23:54
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Sir Bruce posted:One tension in this that Erikson wants to both use rape/hobbling as a signifier of bad or evil characters and depict societies in various situations of "barbarism" which creates a weird tension where we're never asked to imagine the "good guys" participating in these barbaric acts. . Generally speaking, "not doing horrible poo poo" is why we call them "good guys".
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Jul 13, 2015 00:44
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Right, which is why it's inconsistent with Erikson's portrayal of "what we think of as horrible poo poo is culturally acceptable and normal".
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Jul 13, 2015 00:47
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Sir Bruce posted:Right, which is why it's inconsistent with Erikson's portrayal of "what we think of as horrible poo poo is culturally acceptable and normal". Why?
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Jul 13, 2015 02:52
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Just bought Gardens of the Moon after reading the kindle sample chapters. Will be back in a couple years after reading the series to discuss.
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Jul 15, 2015 02:06
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Sir Bruce posted:Right, which is why it's inconsistent with Erikson's portrayal of "what we think of as horrible poo poo is culturally acceptable and normal". I'm fairly sure you're missing the entire point of what Erikson was doing with those passages. My reading of the sections including various terrible practices is supposed to point to the reader that cultural relativism is a morally bankrupt point of view. Fog Tripper posted:Just bought Gardens of the Moon after reading the kindle sample chapters. Will be back in a couple years after reading the series to discuss. Just do a book a weekend or so, I found it helped keep everyone straight, since I could remember who the hell people were that you hadn't seen in a few books.
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Jul 15, 2015 02:59
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Fog Tripper posted:Just bought Gardens of the Moon after reading the kindle sample chapters. Will be back in a couple years after reading the series to discuss. That's basically what I did with this thread years ago.  Have fun!
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Jul 15, 2015 03:01
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Baudin posted:I'm fairly sure you're missing the entire point of what Erikson was doing with those passages. My reading of the sections including various terrible practices is supposed to point to the reader that cultural relativism is a morally bankrupt point of view. No, I agree with that reading. I just think creates a tension when Erikson, as an author, still expects us to sympathize at least somewhat with (some of) these people in despicable societies and, at least in the cases of hobbling and Karsa's rape, does it via whitewashing and very likely omission of sympathetic characters' participation in "barbarism". Contrast that to the approach he takes in Midnight Tides where every single sympathetic character either is placed outside or has transcended their bankrupt (lol) culture. Of course, it'd be kind of boring if all major protagonists were portrayed as having our modern morals (Tehol/Bugg come closest of all) but I'd rather a more complete biting of the morally despicable bullet in these cases. The Karsa intro does do this very well for pointless slaughter and conquering but then misses the ball with rape.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:16
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Sir Bruce posted:The Karsa intro does do this very well for pointless slaughter and conquering but then misses the ball with rape. How so? His eventual mixed feelings regarding what he did, the children's arrival to help him in combat, or the women's attitude toward what was happening?
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Jul 15, 2015 03:36
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Baudin posted:How so? His eventual mixed feelings regarding what he did, the children's arrival to help him in combat, or the women's attitude toward what was happening? My recollection is that the womens' attitude post-rape was bullshit. Something like "oh well he was stronger than our men anyway so it's for the best". I could be misremembering. His eventual (a long time later) mixed feelings is what makes Karsa a fascinating character. At the time it's 100% headstrong in despicableness. There is no noble savage here.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:47
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Also, I mentioned this before, but as much as I loved the Toc/Tool bromance, Tehol/Bugg is right up there. Just as good, maybe even better.
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Jul 15, 2015 17:54
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At the risk of sounding like a rape apologist if you spend your entire life (and toblakai live longer too) watching your uncle dad and brothers head out on rape parties and regularly have to defend your own village from rival rape parties you might end up having a slightly different view of rape than someone who grew up in a society where that is unequivocally a Bad Thing, similar to how when you read accounts of feudal Japan it is considered normal for peasants to regularly die or be killed in the service of their lords.
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Jul 16, 2015 21:35
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Forget feudal Japan. Bride kidnapping was a big and sanctioned thing in many (and continues to be in some to this day) cultures throughout human history, and rape was of course a given. I don't really think it's apologism to consider that depending on the culture in which one is raised, their views of what we might otherwise consider heinous crimes could be quite different.
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Jul 16, 2015 21:50
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pile of brown posted:At the risk of sounding like a rape apologist if you spend your entire life (and toblakai live longer too) watching your uncle dad and brothers head out on rape parties and regularly have to defend your own village from rival rape parties you might end up having a slightly different view of rape than someone who grew up in a society where that is unequivocally a Bad Thing, similar to how when you read accounts of feudal Japan it is considered normal for peasants to regularly die or be killed in the service of their lords. Yeah I kinda keep feeling like this part of it gets overlooked in this conversation about Karsa's early stuff - and it's not just Karsa and his party that buy into this poo poo, it's the victims there as well. And all of it is basically constructed to make both the reader and Karsa go "this is hosed up," while also building up Karsa and why he comes to the same conclusion his dad did about it being a bunch of ugly bullshit. Hell, it's why his later admittance that when he returns home, he's not gonna say poo poo to his formerly idolized grandfather and instead will apologize to his father has the weight that it does.
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Jul 16, 2015 21:54
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To be fair that poo poo has a purpose and their culture was artificially created. Doesn't make it any less horrific but they're all victims in a way.
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Jul 16, 2015 22:52
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Habibi posted:I don't really think it's apologism to consider that depending on the culture in which one is raised, their views of what we might otherwise consider heinous crimes could be quite different. And you need to state that? Is there someone believing otherwise? I feel this is somewhat related: https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/620641302758055940 There's no objective norm you can appeal to. People decide what is right or wrong, and it's their responsibility to bear the consequences.
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Jul 16, 2015 23:21
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anilEhilated posted:To be fair that poo poo has a purpose and their culture was artificially created. Doesn't make it any less horrific but they're all victims in a way. To me that was the biggest tragedy (HoC) of the Teblor in general. The entire thing was just horrific. Those drat broken Imass prescribed that to them, and not just the rape either, they also were made to sacrifice most of their own children. Karsa's father is the one among them who was really like "You know what, gently caress this bullshit."
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Jul 18, 2015 08:10
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Fenrir posted:To me that was the biggest tragedy (HoC) of the Teblor in general. The entire thing was just horrific. Those drat broken Imass prescribed that to them, and not just the rape either, they also were made to sacrifice most of their own children. Karsa's father is the one among them who was really like "You know what, gently caress this bullshit." Still HoC spoilers. Actually it wasn't just the Faces in the Rock. The Teblor were reduced to the tribes, rape and raiding before the Faces in the Rock were active. In chapter 2 Karsa and pals find a cave with the story of the shattering of the Toblakai written on the wall. This is my interpretation of it, but I think the Toblakai had been doing some interbreeding with the Jaghut. T'lan Imass came along and annihilated the Jaghut, and a substantial amount of the Toblakai, because T'lan Imass slaughter first and ask questions later, especially when Jaghut blood is involved. The surviving Toblakai fled. The Toblakai leader thought that their blood was cloudy and would grow cloudier still due to their small numbers. Icarium apparently turned up after the Toblakai were shattered, as he was moved by their plight and gave them the Laws of Isolation, which the Toblakai leader implemented. Sundering family and kin ties, dismantling their cities and civilizations, returning to barbarity and scattering the Toblakai into the Teblor tribes to eventually purify their blood. The Toblakai leader believe that only though random and rare breeding, so raids and rape, would their blood clear. It's not specifically mention what the cloud in the blood is but I believe it's Jaghut blood due to the T'lan Imass having such a hard on for killing them and Reaper's Gale spoiler Icarium being half Jaghut half Toblakai. The Faces became active much later, first infiltrating the dreams of Teblor and demanding worship. If the Toblakai had never fallen, they would've known what's up and not fallen for their bullshit. On the stuff I'd like to know about Karsa, I want to know about Karsa's mum. I'm not sure when this spoiler is revealed but his dad was a superb but standard Teblor warrior until Karsa's mum's came along. Her influence was threatening enough that the Faces in the Rock had her killed. What did she know? What had she seen? What got her to start questioning that led to her being assassinated? I want her story drat it. Also Karsa's dad's story because why not?
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Jul 18, 2015 11:41
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Well, apparently there are plans for Karsa books in the pipeline, so you'll probably find out eventually.
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Jul 18, 2015 12:21
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Erikson is gonna write himself to death.
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Jul 18, 2015 12:35
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Gardens of the Moon (Steven Erikson) According to Wikipedia, there are 6 Esslemont novels out now. I'm wanting to get into these stories (I started Gardens of the Moon many years ago but had to put it down for a while when life events gave me to time to read and never got back to it), if I'm wanting to go for the full experience, is there an updated list like this as to where all those novels fit in?
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Jul 18, 2015 19:50
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Mordiceius posted:is there an updated list like this as to where all those novels fit in? in a garbage can
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Jul 18, 2015 21:16
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Mordiceius posted:According to Wikipedia, there are 6 Esslemont novels out now. I'm wanting to get into these stories (I started Gardens of the Moon many years ago but had to put it down for a while when life events gave me to time to read and never got back to it), if I'm wanting to go for the full experience, is there an updated list like this as to where all those novels fit in? None of them are very good.
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Jul 18, 2015 21:20
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Should I just forego Esslemont's novels completely?
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Jul 18, 2015 23:01
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Mordiceius posted:Should I just forego Esslemont's novels completely? Yes. Exhaust all Erikson books first and then when you want more, reread them instead of reading Esselmont.
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Jul 19, 2015 00:22
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anilEhilated posted:They're all set after the series, order is Orb Scepter Throne, Blood and Bone, Assail. You're wrong. They happen simultaneously with the last two or three Erickson books and are directly related to (big spoilers) fragments of the Crippled God being brought together . You are however right, that none of them are amazing. Some are good by fantasy standards especially OST and to a lesser degree the Stormrider book but otherwise..
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Jul 19, 2015 01:46
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I actually liked all the parts about the priest in the jungle in blood and bone, it was fun to read.
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Jul 19, 2015 02:54
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pile of brown posted:I actually liked all the parts about the priest in the jungle in blood and bone, it was fun to read. Yeah I enjoyed most things about B&B that didn't involve the ending or the Crimson Guard or the 'reveal' that you see coming practically out of the gates.
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Jul 19, 2015 03:08
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Yeah. In story, Blood and Bone is contemporaneous with the climax to the main story in the Crippled God. My recommendation is to try night of knives after midnight tides. It's very short. If you think it's terrible, don't sweat the rest of his stuff and just finish off the main series. If you like it, you can alternate authors.
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Jul 19, 2015 03:09
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dishwasherlove posted:You're wrong. They happen simultaneously with the last two or three Erickson books and are directly related to (big spoilers) fragments of the Crippled God being brought together . You are however right, that none of them are amazing. Some are good by fantasy standards especially OST and to a lesser degree the Stormrider book but otherwise.. Anyway, I wouldn't start with Night of Knives - the best thing about that book is that it's short. RotCG at least tells you some interesting things about what happens in the Empire, even if it does it in a less than desirable way; IMO that makes it a more engaging read.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:01
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Yeah. In story, Blood and Bone is contemporaneous with the climax to the main story in the Crippled God. Counter point: Night of Knives is easily the weakest ICE novel, and is orders of magnitude more terrible than say Return of the Crimson Guard of OST or Stonewielder. So if you were going to try one, I wouldn't go with that one.
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Jul 20, 2015 04:27
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Is there a good place to read a summary of the books? I finished book 3 a good long while ago, was planning on starting 4 but I realized I don't remember poo poo about what happened in the past books. 
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Jul 27, 2015 12:58
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Edmond Dantes posted:Is there a good place to read a summary of the books? I finished book 3 a good long while ago, was planning on starting 4 but I realized I don't remember poo poo about what happened in the past books. There is a wiki.
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Jul 27, 2015 17:33
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The Tor reread is pretty detailed too.
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Jul 27, 2015 17:36
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Eschatos posted:There is a wiki. Yeah, I checked that one but the summary for Memories of Ice stops midway book 2. anilEhilated posted:The Tor reread is pretty detailed too. I'll take a look, cheers.
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Jul 27, 2015 17:45
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Holy moly I just read the Publisher's Summary for Fall of Light and  do I want to read that right now
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Jul 29, 2015 10:18
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Link it.
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Jul 30, 2015 00:15
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