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djw175 posted:It is worth it to note that the essentials wizard is arguably more complicated than the base wizard. Also hybriding is neat. It's at least better than the base mcing where you had to invest 4 feats and a paragon path.
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Jul 28, 2015 07:56
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gradenko_2000 posted:On the DM side, treasures became randomly rolled again, and there was even a healing potion that kept healing you even if you did not have healing surges left. Oops. That was actually an item in the adventurer's vault. It cost a lot of money which is a good counterbalance if you've never played D&D and have no idea how it works.
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Jul 28, 2015 09:13
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captain innocuous posted:If you don't have a silvered weapon, your ADAMANTINE weapon will work effectively on these (but not on a silver immune or vice-versa): Note that adamantine weapons don't exist in 5e. Or rather, they probably do but it's just that there's no game information about them. The DMG talks about adamantine armor (page 150). The PHB talks about silver weapons (page 148). But neither mention adamantine weapons, how to get them, how expensive they are, etc.
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Jul 28, 2015 09:57
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Just LoL if you don't carry around your 3.5 books when you play 5e to patch up rule holes. (alternatively: It's up to the DM)
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Jul 28, 2015 10:38
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Mendrian posted:Spells are currently balanced around the assumption that they need to be powerful because they have limited uses available. If that weren't the case -- if they were balanced around the assumption that you can use them all the time, and that they only need to scale with level -- what would they look like instead? They would look mostly like weapon attacks. The Warlock's Eldritch Blast is a good example: * 1d10 damage die * "Spell Attack" means it has to pass through the target's AC * Agonizing Blast allows the Warlock to add their CHA modifier to the spell's damage die rolls * At levels 5, 11 and 17, Eldritch Blast gains an extra "beam", which is another hit of 1d10+CHA. This corresponds roughly to a Fighter gaining extra attacks at levels 5, 11 and 20. Except for that last part in which the Fighter actually gets a bum deal So the Warlock is basically rolling with a CHA-based Heavy Crossbow that doesn't need a feat to enable multi-attacks, and then 2 spells per Short Rest is the "I need to kill this now" equivalent of a Fighter's Action Surge and Superiority Dice. All the other classes and their respective mechanics are just placed along different points on the spectrum of how huge/game-changing their limited resource thingamajiggers are, and how potent their "I've run out of limited resource" basic attack is. The idea is that a Fighter does not have anything to call on when they really need something done on demand, but they instead gain the most potent possible "passive" or "autoattack" damage, and that this is juxtaposed against a Wizard that can Fireball dudes to end the encounter in a single turn, but then reverts to pinging them with a sling when they're out of spells. The former example has sort of shifted on the spectrum with the introduction of even just Action Surge for a Champion, and the latter has shifted with the introduction of cantrips in 3e and then scaling cantrips in 5e, but the basic dichotomy is still there. It's just that even if you pulled off this dichotomy perfectly, you run into what I call "The two-hander vs dual-wielder PvP DPS" problem: if you have a two-hander that only swings once every 3.80 seconds, versus two one-handers that swing once every second, and they both have the same final DPS, the two-hander is so much more valuable because it's going to deal a lot more damage-per-hit to have the same DPS if it swings so much slower, and that kind of burst damage is important in a game where you can't assume that you can swing against a target 100% of the time. In D&D terms, the Fighter isn't going to care about whether or not his "average damage" is the same as the Wizard over 10 rounds and/or 10 different encounters, if the fights never last that long and the party never has that many combats. As well, the Wizard is going to be so much cooler because ending an encounter via a spell is something that the Wizard did on-demand, as opposed to the Fighter just happening to luck out on some dice rolls. Finally, the different ways that a Wizard can tap into to end encounters, whether via Sleep or Fireball or a save-or-suck against a boss monster makes the Wizard virtually more important than everyone else because suddenly the party's ability to survive tough encounters rests upon the Wizard's spell selection. Okay - that may have meandered a bit. To address your original question, rebalancing spell damage to assume that it they could be used all the time could (not necessarily should) look eerily similar to turning spellcasters into Rangers that fire off differently colored arrows, but maybe that doesn't matter to you.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:27
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djw175 posted:It is worth it to note that the essentials wizard is arguably more complicated than the base wizard. Also hybriding is neat. It's at least better than the base mcing where you had to invest 4 feats and a paragon path. Yeah I thought the hybrid system worked pretty well. Obviously it's not for char op (apart from a couple of combos), but you can make some really serviceable and fun characters out of the system. The intial multiclass feat was excellent - free skill, splash of another class with no fiddly split levels or complicated choices. Most characters I make take one at some point, plus bards can take multiples which really adds to their theme of jack of all trades. The idea of giving up 3 further feats and your paragon path for "full multiclassing" was shite though and was totally not needed or taken by anyone.
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Jul 28, 2015 19:54
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mearls on the last survey. http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/july-survey ctrl + f warlord 
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Jul 28, 2015 20:04
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Unsurprising but still hilarious. He REALLY hates that class.
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Jul 28, 2015 20:12
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I really wish Warlords hadn't become the scapegoat of 4th Edition. They're a really unique idea and one that no other class quite manages to embody. I'd even be willing to compromise and make the Warlord master of temp HP or something. I suppose it should come as no surprise that a class that makes other martials better gets short shrift.
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Jul 28, 2015 20:24
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That's part of it, but honestly, I'm pretty sure Mearls just flat out HATES the class. He won't even mention it, and they only time he talked about it in the podcast was out of scorn.
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Jul 28, 2015 20:34
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Their latest survey is about that awakened mystic class they put out. The one that was in an unearthed arcana thing that isn't on their website any more. They are so good at their jobs.
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Jul 28, 2015 20:54
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goatface posted:Their latest survey is about that awakened mystic class they put out. The one that was in an unearthed arcana thing that isn't on their website any more. I thought you were either kidding or mistaken... but no, this is actually true. The UA article itself is still there but the link to the document is gone. They are asking feedback on a document you can't access anymore. I say again: they are asking feedback on a document you can't access anymore.
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Jul 28, 2015 22:10
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goatface posted:Their latest survey is about that awakened mystic class they put out. The one that was in an unearthed arcana thing that isn't on their website any more. It's there, they just fuk'd the link up because they're only oh so good at their jobs.
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Jul 28, 2015 22:10
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LFK posted:It's there, they just fuk'd the link up because they're only oh so good at their jobs. Oh. Well, that's better I guess. Sort of.
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Jul 28, 2015 22:17
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LFK posted:It's there, they just fuk'd the link up because they're only oh so good at their jobs. lol at Immortals getting health regen at level 3 when Champions don't get it til 18.
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Jul 28, 2015 22:27
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You also get a free magical weapon and what is effectively a damage-on-miss power with one of the other disciplines. Is it just an in-joke at this point that the fighter is the worse goddamn class at fighting?
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Jul 28, 2015 23:21
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Darwinism posted:You also get a free magical weapon and what is effectively a damage-on-miss power with one of the other disciplines. I think it's still marginally better than the Ranger
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Jul 28, 2015 23:25
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They get a post-hit optional damage boost as well. No risking stuff by declaring before you attack for this
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Jul 28, 2015 23:25
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LGD posted:I think it's still marginally better than the Ranger The biggest problem I see is that you're stuck using your bonus action to swap disciplines and the concentration effects really seem set up to emphasize a stance dance style of play. Well, and that your choices are Flavory Things, Psionic Style or Do Damage*, Psionic Style. *Doing damage is not actually that great
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Jul 28, 2015 23:36
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Mendrian posted:I really wish Warlords hadn't become the scapegoat of 4th Edition. They're a really unique idea and one that no other class quite manages to embody. I'd even be willing to compromise and make the Warlord master of temp HP or something. I suppose it should come as no surprise that a class that makes other martials better gets short shrift. I just recently made the connection between the old AD&D "Fighter has a bunch of followers who fight for him" and "Warlord is a guy who gets other party members to attack on his turn." Like, gently caress, it's a goddamn old skool idea, just reflavoured. But grogs gonna hate.
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Jul 28, 2015 23:39
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goatface posted:They get a post-hit optional damage boost as well. No risking stuff by declaring before you attack for this To be fair most of the Battle Master maneuvers can be declared after you know you've already hit. Darwinism posted:Is it just an in-joke at this point that the fighter is the worse goddamn class at fighting? The Barbarian can be worse depending on resting circumstances and fight difficulty, but yeah the Fighter isn't anywhere close to "best always" or even "best often". Any advantage they'd eke out would come mostly from their extra ASIs letting them hit the 20 cap earlier than other characters, and other characters being more MAD.
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Jul 29, 2015 05:01
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The Paladin's Smite works fairly similar, though admittedly d8s instead of d10s. The Paladin also gets other features, then again who knows what Mystics get after 5th level.
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Jul 29, 2015 05:53
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Smite is also restricted to melee weapon attacks. The only restriction on lethal strike is that it has to be applied to a hit from your psionic weapon (which doesn't appear to necessarily be melee). Sorry rangers, not only are warlocks better snipers, but now mystics as well! I'm curious what the multiclassing rules will be for the mystic. If they end up anywhere close to how they're written now, a fighter/mystic multiclass might actually be definitively best at fighting* *as defined by doing single-target HP damage
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Jul 29, 2015 06:37
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the big problem i see is that you cant even do a big nova round because you only get 5 points at level 5 also points only recover after a long rest I think that level points + wis would be better and maybe get back a number of points equal to your wisdom bonus after a short rest. Edit: never mind a nova at level 5 you can only use one of your big powers a day and only if you didn't do poo poo at all in any other fight how many spells does a wizard have at level 5? Elfgames fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 07:48
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Paladins are also good at taking out scores of weak dudes when the optional cleave rules from the DMG are in. (I hear it works similar to a system in 13th age.) Were if you deal 30 damage to say a kobold in one hit and there are 5 kobolds within reach, The remaining damage from the attack would go onto the other kobolds until you ran out of damage that could one shot kobolds or you run out of Kobolds.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:51
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Slippery42 posted:Sorry rangers, not only are warlocks better snipers, but now mystics as well! So what would Rangers need, to start being good? Would something similar to this be a good place to start? Probably opening up some other Archetypes to them (Battle Master, Totem Warrior, Druid stuff) maybe?
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Jul 29, 2015 08:01
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Just add the immortal to the fighter archetype and replace Psi and Psionic with Muscle.Awakened Muscles posted:The Order of the Immortal strives to achieve physical captain innocuous fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 08:21
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captain innocuous posted:Just add the immortal to the fighter archetype and replace Psi and Psionic with Muscle. There is a great power hidden in the fabulous secrets of muscle mystery. 
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Jul 29, 2015 08:33
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captain innocuous posted:Just add the immortal to the fighter archetype and replace Psi and Psionic with Muscle. yeah that's actually pretty good
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Jul 29, 2015 08:36
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I was actually thinking more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa5rW_AJw-U Two members of the same brotherhood.
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Jul 29, 2015 08:45
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P.d0t posted:So what would Rangers need, to start being good? Would something similar to this be a good place to start? Probably opening up some other Archetypes to them (Battle Master, Totem Warrior, Druid stuff) maybe? For starters I would turn Hunter's Mark into an at-will Bonus Action rather than requiring a spell slot. The thing about trying to revamp Rangers is there's really not a lot of room between "the Ranger as a themed set of combat options" and "the bow-slinging Fighter as a valid build". At some point one or the other is going to become irrelevant. MonsterEnvy posted:Paladins are also good at taking out scores of weak dudes when the optional cleave rules from the DMG are in. (I hear it works similar to a system in 13th age.) Were if you deal 30 damage to say a kobold in one hit and there are 5 kobolds within reach, The remaining damage from the attack would go onto the other kobolds until you ran out of damage that could one shot kobolds or you run out of Kobolds. The cleave variant rule is probably a good idea to run with regularly.
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Jul 29, 2015 08:48
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Elfgames posted:the big problem i see is that you cant even do a big nova round because you only get 5 points at level 5 also points only recover after a long rest I think that level points + wis would be better and maybe get back a number of points equal to your wisdom bonus after a short rest. The way I understand the rules is that you can commit up to 5 psi points at once to any discipline, but your psi point capacity is 27 at level 5. Say you've got a bonus action attack (polearm master/crossbow expert/etc), though. I don't see anything stopping you from applying a 5 psi lethal strike to each hit on the same turn other than your desire to conserve a long rest resource. We can go even further with multiclassing. A Fighter 5/Mystic 5 using action surge can do this to four attacks in a single turn. Granted, it's at the cost of almost your entire daily psi pool. P.d0t posted:So what would Rangers need, to start being good? Would something similar to this be a good place to start? Probably opening up some other Archetypes to them (Battle Master, Totem Warrior, Druid stuff) maybe? Levels 1-10, I actually think Rangers hold up reasonably well, but they fall off once fighters get their third attack and warlocks get their third eldritch blast beam. The only jump in power rangers get after level 5 is Swift Quiver, which is a 5th level spell that requires concentration (meaning they can't stack it with hunter's mark) and their bonus action each turn to only bring them back to near-parity with fighters/warlocks. I'd start by removing the "once per turn" limitation from colossus slayer and horde breaker sometime around level 11 and revamping Swift Quiver somehow. Either make it a 4th level spell, remove the concentration requirement, remove the bonus action requirement, or give it a more potent effect. captain innocuous posted:Just add the immortal to the fighter archetype and replace Psi and Psionic with Muscle. I was thinking of skinning a battlemaster fighter / immortal mystic multiclass into a gadgeteer.
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Jul 29, 2015 09:00
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Ok that's much better than I thought I read psi maximum as your max Psi points and didn't see the other column. Still would like some sort of regen other than Just a long rest, that's still only 5 big things and 2 small things.
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Jul 29, 2015 09:30
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Roadie posted:There is a great power hidden in the fabulous secrets of muscle mystery. Man Flex Mentallo: Man of Muscle Mystery would make for a really interesting RPG adventure/campaign with a couple tweaks(also anyone who hasn't read it yet should track down a copy and read it, in my opinion it's one of the greatest comics ever made, and either it or All-Star Superman is Grant Morrison's Magnum Opus)
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Jul 29, 2015 09:52
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I like feats so let's look at feats some more! Specifically, what kinds of character would/could/should use them. Alert Great for everyone Athlete Alright for anyone who wants a high STR or DEX, although the climbing/jumping parts point to someone who's already good at STR/Athletics Charger This is good for any race that has a lovely speed, to help get them into combat. It works best with a two-handed weapon, because if you're only attacking once, you want it to count. Crossbow Expert For anyone who uses crossbows, but particularly if you plan/expect to be in melee range with a handcrossbow. Defensive Duelist Prerequisite: Dexterity 13 or higher Anyone wielding a finesse weapon (or two) who has at least 13 DEX, and expects to be in melee. Basically Rogue/Fighter/Ranger, for the most part. Dual Wielder Anyone who's gonna be toting around two one-handers. Also, makes it easier to swap to a ranged loadout. Dungeon Delver Whoever's gonna be looking for traps, which means whoever has the best Investigation score (Rogue/Wizard, maybe Bard) Durable everybody! Elemental Adept Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell Some kind of blaster spellcaster, preferably one that'll be chucking around tons of dice all the time. Grappler Prerequisite: Strength 13 or higher Someone with a high Athletics score (Bard or Rogue; sneak attack!  )Great Weapon Master Someone with expanded crit range (Champion), attacks with Advantage a lot (Barbarian) or who is always kill-stealing (Colossus Slayer Ranger) The second clause requires a Heavy weapon, so proficiency with those helps. Healer Whoever feels like doing the job/buying the kits Heavily Armored Prerequisite: Proficiency with medium armor If you need STR and AC and don't care about Stealth, and you meet the prerequisites (not sure anything fits this description, because Rangers probably wanna be stealthy and Barbarians can't use Heavy armor without huge nerfs to class features) Heavy Armor Master Prerequisite: Proficiency with heavy armor Pretty much the same as the previous one, except it's for Paladins and Fighters, who already get Heavy Armor prof (or Clerics who get it from their Domain) Inspiring Leader Prerequisite: Charisma 13 or higher Whoever has the highest CHA in the party, ideally. Whoever wants to buff the party before each fight by lecturing them. Keen Mind Do you need +1 INT and some extraneous situational bullshit? This is the feat for you! Lightly Armored Wizards or Sorcerers (although not even Draconic Sorcerers or Favored Souls, really )Linguist see: Keen Mind Lucky Does everything. Great for everyone. Mage Slayer Anyone who wants to slay mages, in melee. Much like Charger, you probably wanna be using a big fuckoff weapon if/when this procs. Magic Initiate If you'd rather spend an ASI than dip 1 level into a spellcasting class, take this.. assuming you have a high number in the requisite spellcasting ability Martial Adept Getting only 1 Superiority die is poo poo, and you never get more, so I'm not sure this is really good for anything other than Battle Master (or spell-less Ranger which is the same goddamn thing) ? Medium Armor Master Trap. Mobile Good for anyone who wants/needs a speed boost. Especially if you're any kind of skirmishing warrior (so TWF or Extra Attack classes; the more things you attack the more benefit you get from the clause that lets you avoid OAs) Moderately Armored Prerequisite: Proficiency with light armor Rogues, Warlocks, Lore Bards (I guess?) Mounted Combatant Probably anyone who's proficient with a Lance. Or who attacks a lot. If you can get a free mount, or are a small race and can use the party druid as one, go nuts. Observant Pretty good for everyone, particularly if you need a +1 INT (Wizard, EK, Arcane Trickster) or +1 WIS (all kinds of people) Polearm Master Anyone proficient with glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or pike. The reach weapons are better, and if you're a monk, you're not gaining anything from the Attack action benefit. Resilient Probably best for anyone with Concentration spells and not proficiency with CON saves. Ritual Caster Prerequisite: Intelligence or Wisdom 13 or higher Whoever wants to spend an ASI to get ritual casting, instead of dipping into a class that gets it at level 1. Savage Attacker 2d6 or 1d12 weapon; 2d6 becomes even better if you have Great Weapon Fighting Style Sentinel see: Mage Slayer, without the mage slaying, necessarily Sharpshooter Anyone using ranged weapons; Fighter/Ranger/Rogue primarly, you can shoehorn in Bards. Shield Master Anyone who uses a shield, particularly if you want better DEX saves Skilled Good for whoever wants it; slightly less good if you're a Bard (Jack of All Trades and/or Lore makes it kinda obsolete) Skulker Prerequisite: Dexterity 13 or higher Primarily for ranged weapons + Stealth. see: Sharpshooter Spell Sniper Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell Basically you wanna use this if you've got at least one cantrip that uses an attack roll, which you plan to use a lot, and preferably already has a good range. Not great for Bards unless you also use the feat to pick up a cantrip from another class. Tavern Brawler Anyone who wants to brawl, needs the STR or CON bump, and isn't a Monk (they already get most of the benefits of this feat as class features) Tough If you need an extra 2 HP per level instead of an ASI, go for it. War Caster Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell First clause is for Concentration; Second clause is for when you have sword & board loadout. So far, leaning towards Paladin/Ranger/Cleric. The third clause requires an Attack spell with a casting time of 1 action; probably this means a full casting class most of the time. Weapon Master 
P.d0t fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 10:23
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I decided to try and make a new fighter while sticking to 5e's philosophy of design, by using the bard as a benchmark for things to do. Based on the old fighter, first thing was to just fix a few of the biggest offenders. Make Relentless work, make Second Wind scale, give the last Extra Attack the same level that a Warlock gets it, make the Champion not a laughingstock. All of that. Then, started looking at how to give fighter's something to make up for their lack of spellcasting, and came up with Powers (because 4e, amirite?). 4 levels/tiers, picking new ones each level, and being able to easily retrain your picks just like a cleric can their spell loadout. Each power wouldn't be daily, but should have the same overall utility of a spell. Shapeshifting doesn't give aquatic adaptation like Alter Self, but you can keep it on for as long as you like and don't need to Concentrate. Guard Duty works like Alarm, but only alerts you, but also can be used when someone tries to sneak up on you, or when you come across someone hiding. And so on. And while I was doing this, I'm pretty sure I didn't break the game. I think this fighter could play with a cleric, bard, and druid and none of them would feel completely outclassed. But the fact remains that this is a TON of free extra stuff loaded on top of the normal class features that gives a massive jump in utility. I quit after I'd finished a bunch of stuff for the first tier of Powers, but I think the lesson here is that it's impossible to fix fighters with a "simple" fix while keeping things balanced. You could make a fighter that's immune to magic and can one-shot every enemy, but it wouldn't play well with others and disrupts everything. Fixing the fighter by sprucing up his existing class features isn't going to cut it either. The fact is that other classes get really awesome new toys each and every level on top of their class features, and what seems like the best way to keep up is to do the same. So the biggest blind spot in 5e design is that Spellcasting is considered a class feature in the same way that "proficient with heavy armor and martial weapons" is, when instead, each spell is basically its own really good class feature. Anyways, what I did is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B1Q9szcc52tkyX3j3rvTiWMZmAWFUL2vRDM9QRbg2NI/edit?usp=sharing if anyone is curious. It was an interesting waste of time. Maybe next a wizard class like an illusionist or Evocator based on the monk or rogue, or a magician-wizard based on the fighter, with some some bullshit like "Okay, I tried to solve that rubik's cube for like half an hour at my desk, can't be done" style design.
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Jul 29, 2015 15:45
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MonsterEnvy posted:Paladins are also good at taking out scores of weak dudes when the optional cleave rules from the DMG are in. (I hear it works similar to a system in 13th age.) Were if you deal 30 damage to say a kobold in one hit and there are 5 kobolds within reach, The remaining damage from the attack would go onto the other kobolds until you ran out of damage that could one shot kobolds or you run out of Kobolds. Especially when combined with GWM. -5/+10 for more damage to spread around if you're confident that you'll hit and/or want to save slots. Then bonus action melee attack to continue the fun.
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Jul 29, 2015 22:01
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Just how hosed would game balance be if all spells were concentration, and resolved at the start of your turn x rounds later? Level 1-3 spells are cast on the next turn Level 4-6 spells are cast at the start of your turn in two rounds Level 7-9 spells are cast at the start of your turn in three rounds Any spell that is a bonus or reaction action is resolved as normal on the same turn. Any time a caster is casting a spell and it was not begun on the same turn, they can cast a cantrip as well. After firing off a spell, the caster can immediately begin casting another spell. If a caster is hit while casting, the normal concentration rules apply, and a spell can be disrupted. If the caster loses concentration, the spell slot is lost. A caster can maintain a spell with concentration the same way as normal and still cast a new spell. However, if a concentration spell such as stoneskin is in effect and the wizard is casting a new spell, the wizard must make a concentration saves for each spell, starting with the currently active spell (stoneskin in the example). EK and Trickster Rogues don't have to make these checks because they suffer enough already. Spells are just so stupid in this game. The way duels between two casters play out is just dumb in the rules. Caster A casts a spell at Caster B Caster B uses a reaction to cast Counterspell Caster A uses a reaction to Counterspell the Counterspell The first caster always gets the spell to fire And there are no rules to find out what level to boost your counterspell up to. Arcana check? Is that a reaction action? Then you can't cast counterspell as a reaction because you used it to find out the level of the spell. And every time I say reaction action I die a little inside.
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Jul 29, 2015 22:14
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captain innocuous posted:Just how hosed would game balance be if all spells were concentration, and resolved at the start of your turn x rounds later? I ran a 3.5 game under rules like that (the Thieves' World setting), and it helped a bit, but I still had to throw a LOT of extra stuff to the martials to help them keep up.
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Jul 29, 2015 22:36
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There's an optional initiative system in the DMG that might be to your liking. Actions are declared at the beginning and you add +/- to initiative accordingly. Can't look up the specifics right now. Delaying >1 turn would create a "blitz to the caster" arms race and throw off the entire game too much imo. I've always played (Adventure's League and homebrew) that those Arcana checks are free actions, with the DC being the spell level. This hasn't come up in any of my games, but you could throw in advantage, auto-pass, or a +bonus circumstantially. Say if you are currently detecting magic, actually know the spell, or have seen it cast before.
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Jul 29, 2015 22:44
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