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On the plus side you didnt have to wait.
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Jul 31, 2015 00:24
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prefect posted:I remember when this came out. I had a friend telling me that X-Men was really great at the time, but I think it was that cover that caused me to give it a pass for a few years. Same. Even as a horny 14 year-old I remember I couldn't browse that issue and retain my self-respect. Emma as a character is loving dynamite during that run (and Whedon's afterwards, god bless that man for not making Astonishing all about resurrecting Jean).
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Jul 31, 2015 00:28
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Her face is all asian-y for some reason, but that costume design is still pretty brilliant, skeevy or not.
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Jul 31, 2015 00:29
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redbackground posted:Her face is all asian-y for some reason, but that costume design is still pretty brilliant, skeevy or not. ... What? It's one of the dumbest costumes I've ever seen, aside from being impossible. There are some dumb costumes that look painted on or whatever but that one would literally all have to be held on with glue, including the gorget or whatever. And I love Quitely!
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Jul 31, 2015 01:55
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Flesh Forge posted:... What? It's one of the dumbest costumes I've ever seen, aside from being impossible. There are some dumb costumes that look painted on or whatever but that one would literally all have to be held on with glue, including the gorget or whatever. And I love Quitely! Yeah, I gotta agree with Flesh Forge here. Like, why even bother with the gorget (thanks for teaching me a new word today, FF!)? Holy poo poo I just noticed the extreme camel toe. Fuckin' hell, Frank?! I've always been a DC fan over Marvel, and I honestly think one of the factors that turns me off trying out X-men books is Emma Frost. Is there any nuance to her character that makes her dress in such ridiculous outfits, or is the bottom line just fanwank service? Honest question. Like, I can accept Starfire (though I don't like how Nu52 handled her) because, hey that's how the roll on her alien world. I'm okay with Black Canary's fishnets. But Frost just... frosts me for some reason. I should probably take this over to the costume thread.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:11
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I think he's treading a line on how absolutely ridiculous it is. Yeah lets shove it on the front cover har har.  Same kind of thing going on with the current Secret Wars E for Extinction:  I know it's ugly but its deliberately ugly and I love the gently caress out of it. 
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Jul 31, 2015 02:11
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Flesh Forge posted:... What? It's one of the dumbest costumes I've ever seen, aside from being impossible. There are some dumb costumes that look painted on or whatever but that one would literally all have to be held on with glue, including the gorget or whatever. And I love Quitely! It's not supposed to be practical.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:24
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JacquelineDempsey posted:Yeah, I gotta agree with Flesh Forge here. Like, why even bother with the gorget (thanks for teaching me a new word today, FF!)? Her costumes makes an X of exposed skin. It's dumb as hell, but there is a (bad) reason for it.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:28
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JacquelineDempsey posted:Yeah, I gotta agree with Flesh Forge here. Like, why even bother with the gorget (thanks for teaching me a new word today, FF!)? * Back in 2001, early on in Morrison's run, the goal was to sell hard and fast that this was a different breed of X-Men-- provocative, slightly dangerous, and brazen, and Emma Frost's design was a part of that. The cover is probably the biggest enduring image that captures that mission statement, even if in the end Morrison failed to really change the X-Men despite some drat good efforts. I think X'orn's identity was the turning point. * Emma Frost has a bullshit fanservice excuse like Starfire, but also like Starfire the writing is usually consistent enough to justify it, unlike say Black Canary whose vintage hooker look has never made sense for her character or even Power Girl whose tit window gets sillier and sillier the harder writers try to justify it instead of saying "boobs are awesome and the tit window shows them off". The schtick is that Emma's an Empowered Modern Woman ™ and uses the skimpy outfits to distract and disarm men so she can get into their heads that much easier, especially since she's not really a physical fighter in any way. Think of her a bit like a WASP-y 2001 version of Nicki Minaj. Paris Hilton's skank period without the self-effacement. It's flimsy reasoning--pun intended--but I buy Emma's reasoning way more than I ever will Wonder Woman or Black Canary. * That cover is still so naked--pun intended--about flaunting the crazy cheesecake/pin-up nature around characters of Emma Frost that it works even if it's also kind-of embarrassing and awful and I wouldn't be dumb enough to be seen reading a book with that cover in public.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:33
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The first thing I learned about Emma Frost was that she has breast implants. This was before I even knew her powers.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:43
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Thanks for the food for thought. Sorry to keep a derail and not post funny panels, but I just want to make some closing remarks after pondering what y'all posted. There IS something to say about dressing up for the occasion, at least as a woman, and how it can affect your psyche to get ready for a "fight". By day, I'm a dishwashing grunt. I'm also a musician. Right now, I'm sitting in my smelly dishpit clothes posting on the forums. If I had a gig tonight, I'd be showering, slapping warpaint makeup on, and maybe even putting some Canary-esque fishnets on before my boots and fancy outfit. Maybe it's just me, but that transformation from dishbitch to "woo, gonna rock this gig" often starts with the outift, it gets me psyched up. So I guess that's why I can give the okay to Canary's fishnets; she dresses normally as Dinah, but put on THE OUTFIT and now she feels like a badass (also, carrying on her mom's legacy, and that speaks to me in personal ways I ain't gonna bore you with). Same with WW. She's an Amazon, why not dress like one for battle if that's what you're not only physically but psychologically comfy in? But Emma just always has impossible outfits that not even don't look practicable, they don't look vaguely comfortable (in white, too --- jeez I hope they're a material that can be bleached. Maybe she's quatched with Punisher about what his gloves are made of (another Marvel thing I just can't get over)).
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Jul 31, 2015 03:45
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JacquelineDempsey posted:Like, why even bother with the gorget It's absolutely a fantastic design--and completely impractical except for say a stationary photo spread, which the cover basically alludes to as a fashion magazine cover and pose. Emma is the only character that could justifiably get away with using the parts of the clothing that don't exist and instead her own body to say "I'm a goddamn X-Man." It's striking, simple, instantly iconic, super anti-standard costuming, and still completely in-character. And if anyone is going to try to make that outfit work for at least 10 minutes, it's Emma Frost. redbackground fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 04:02
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Black Canary is also wearing a blond wig in some versions of the character, where she's actually a short-haired brunette. I don't know if this is still true after all of the reboots but I just re-read "The Longbow Hunters" and she's got a very sensible haircut under there. And the thing about Emma is that she's a completely constructed persona: in addition to the breast implants, there's a bit in the Morrison run where her nose gets broken and she rants about how that was hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cosmetic surgery ruined, and at some point in a later book by somebody else it's revealed that she's faking her English accent and is actually from Boston or something. There's literally nothing real about Emma Frost. She is entirely her costume, even when she's not wearing it. I imagine that she was a dumpy teenager and then decided that as an adult she was going to drat well fix that with money. I think that at some point we've actually seen her as an awkward, unattractive teenager but I may be remembering something else and attaching it to Emma instead. This doesn't excuse cheesecake covers and gratuitous crotch shots, all of these aspects of Emma Frost's character could have been demonstrated without the absurd costumes and skin shows, but this is pretty much the core of her character and it was a good way to turn her from a boring generic "psychic femme fatale" to somebody who you can sort of emphasize with.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:05
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Remember, for the first third of her history, Emma Frost was a villain in a secret society whose whole deal was being a mutant/cyborg Eyes Wide Shut. Which is not to say that her modern outfits aren't pretty ridiculous. And she did cover up a lot more when she was leading Generation X:  How crazy is it that of all people to defy the 90's "bad girl" trend, it would be Emma Frost?
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Jul 31, 2015 04:13
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SynthOrange posted:I think he's treading a line on how absolutely ridiculous it is. Yeah lets shove it on the front cover har har. When did Hank Hill become Cyclops? 
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Jul 31, 2015 04:18
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Heresiarch posted:Black Canary is also wearing a blond wig in some versions of the character, where she's actually a short-haired brunette. I don't know if this is still true after all of the reboots but I just re-read "The Longbow Hunters" and she's got a very sensible haircut under there. Also, regarding that costume, remember the X-Men have an alien costume machine (non-symbiote variety) in their basement so however obviously impractical it would be in reality, it can easily be explained away as space science.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:22
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Unstable molecules have a lot to answer for.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:24
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That's why I love the gently caress out of Emma Frost. She made a conscious choice to be on the bleeding edge, to zig where others zagged, and set trends for others to follow, and in spite of everything she succeeds at being exactly who she wants to be. I stand by my Nicki Minaj comparisons-- you can be grossed out and think it's inappropriate but you can't deny the woman is being exactly who she wants to be. That's a far cry above say, everything about Psylocke's most infamous bathing suit outfit. Heresiarch posted:I think that at some point we've actually seen her as an awkward, unattractive teenager but I may be remembering something else and attaching it to Emma instead. There was a solo series back around 2002-4ish that I remember almost entirely for the hideous Greg Horn porn traces/pin-up covers that covers her years as an awkward teenager brunette, although because comics I don't think she was ever unattractive. JacquelineDempsey posted:So I guess that's why I can give the okay to Canary's fishnets; she dresses normally as Dinah, but put on THE OUTFIT and now she feels like a badass (also, carrying on her mom's legacy, and that speaks to me in personal ways I ain't gonna bore you with). Same with WW. She's an Amazon, why not dress like one for battle if that's what you're not only physically but psychologically comfy in? But Emma just always has impossible outfits that not even don't look practicable, they don't look vaguely comfortable (in white, too --- jeez I hope they're a material that can be bleached. Maybe she's quatched with Punisher about what his gloves are made of (another Marvel thing I just can't get over)). Let me say that I completely respect your opinion and I don't share this to try and change or "correct" it, but share my logic for why I don't find those outfits appealing as it seems only fair given how you've been commendably articulate about your thoughts. Black Canary is an enhanced human who is totally vulnerable to bullets, blades, and bombs yet somehow sees fishnets as the best recourse? I love the iconography of her look and the legacy angle, but I have yet to hear an argument that makes that particular look work for her in that particular way. Her redesign for the New 52 was one of the rare bits I was 110% on-board with. Wonder Woman is a special case... very little about her outfit makes sense given her backstory but she's so drat iconic there's no way to get rid of it. She's Greek yet wears the American flag-- I don't care what rationalization you put forth that will never not be stupid. She wears a bathing suit because it's comfortable, I guess. Ok, that isn't some crazy sin but I've always maintained that going for like a Hoplite-style battle skirt achieves a similar end while Greco-Romaning her outfit up a fair degree. Really she's kind-of a conceptual mess and while I've rarely hated attempts to change her design I've yet to see one that I feel hits the mark. Like, I'm not really against sexy outfits in comics, but the ugly truth is that some characters are given personalities and backstories that I think can get away with more cheesecake designs-- Emma Frost, Scarlet Witch, She-Hulk, Black Widow, Tigra, Wasp, Black Cat, arguably Power Girl, Starfire, Zatanna, Mera, Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc. etc.--and some that I think really can't--Psylocke, Black Canary, Wonder Woman, Spider-Woman, Supergirl, Wonder Girl, Elektra, Storm, Rogue, etc. etc. Thankfully on the whole this has been getting better over the years. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 04:28
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Emma Frost was created by Chris Claremont, apparently after watching an episode of The Avengers where Emma Peel dressed up as a dominatrix to infiltrate some High Society S&M Club in London. The entire Hellfire Club was about Edwardian fashions mixed with S&M gear. So there's that. A bunch of people (including Claremont) fleshed her out to be more than just another idle fetish toss-in to the X-Men mythos though. I don't really remember the lineage of all of the backstory fill-in over the decades, but pre-during-and-post Morrison's run, the basic idea was that Emma was the mousy wallflower daughter of a rich Boston family who basically immediately learned all of the wrong lessons when her mutant powers manifested and she started being able to read everyone's minds. She ends up falling out with her family and takes a Playboy-Bunny style position inside the Hellfire Club and then manipulates her way to the top. Her entire persona is a sort of self-made artifice, sex-as-a-weapon attitude molded by getting an unvarnished look at the interior Male Gaze as a teenager. This has actually been a pretty consistent throughline to the character, and has been treated just as well and as poorly as you might imagine. So yeah, it makes sense she'd wear something like that. And also of course most of the people looking at that cover won't know all of that background.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:33
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On an entirely different note: here's a collection of parts that individually look pretty decent, but taken as a whole just looks completely off.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:44
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...uh, does she have a cock? Because it looks like she has a cock. e: seriously there is a very large bulge running up her shorts, she's like a loving hair away from Love Sausage in that cover WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 04:47
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It's a terrible drawing, and just because it has an X in it doesn't make it a brilliant design. She's wearing a loving diaper for God's sake.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:52
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Like, if she's supposed to be a transwoman I'll happily put my foot in my mouth on this one but oh my god that person drew Emma Frost with a huge dick
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Jul 31, 2015 04:54
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BWUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!!! My whole reading of Frost is less "I'm a modern empowered woman; deal with my sexuality, world" and more "Look how hot I am. Look, damnit!" She's vain as hell and paid good money to look how she does. Doesn't mean there's a chance in hell you'd have caught me with that book in public if I'd been into comics at the time.  Found this while googling her costumes, haha. Anyway, more Emma!  I mean, if you're gonna put boobs front and center, and still, I feel it's totally fitting with the specific character (but would rather pluck out my own eyes than have this conversation with another human in person), but maybe don't be terrible at drawing them. She got a Ninja Turtle chest for quite a while.
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Jul 31, 2015 05:10
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a kitten posted:On an entirely different note: here's a collection of parts that individually look pretty decent, but taken as a whole just looks completely off. This is the worst Emma Frost yet.
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Jul 31, 2015 05:30
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That cover was so loving weirdly sexual, combined with the name New X-Men? I had to know what happened to the X-Men since the cartoon series. I was growing up. Did the X-Men grow up? That's my secret origin.
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Jul 31, 2015 05:33
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Wendell posted:It's a terrible drawing, and just because it has an X in it doesn't make it a brilliant design. She's wearing a loving diaper for God's sake. For real, my complaint is not anything at all to do with it being impractical, it just looks really loving terrible. Oh GEE There's an X on it WOO so smart!! NEGATIVE SPACE!! ps I legitimately really love cheesecake when it's GOOD cheesecake
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Jul 31, 2015 05:49
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Everytime someone posts lovely Emma Frost art, someone defends it. I don't get it.
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Jul 31, 2015 07:10
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Lurdiak posted:Everytime someone posts lovely Emma Frost art, someone defends it. I don't get it. It's a woman with large breasts in a tiny skintight outfit who is "in control of her sexuality". 
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Jul 31, 2015 07:16
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Keromaru5 posted:And she did cover up a lot more when she was leading Generation X: I like this look for her, she's basically Integra Hellsing. 
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Jul 31, 2015 08:45
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Flesh Forge posted:ps I legitimately really love cheesecake There's your problem.
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Jul 31, 2015 10:08
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Flesh Forge posted:ps I legitimately really love cheesecake This is not Something Offal.
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Jul 31, 2015 10:41
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If you're not able to appreciate technique, design and delivery unless it's applied to morally acceptable and politically correct content I have no idea why you would glance twice at any goddamn thing on this entire website.
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Jul 31, 2015 13:04
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mind the walrus posted:
See, I hate this line of thought because this leads to 'tactical realism' that has every superhero coated in overly-busy body armor, which is lame and boring. I don't really care how practical or protective a superhero's costume is, even if they're vulnerable to bullets. This is comic books, I can buy that the bad guys are Stormtroopers who are really bad shots if it means there's some creativity and uniqueness to everybody's costume. This has lead to modern day superheroes in Batman-style body armor while Batman himself is basically Iron Man with a cape. It's loving awful, visually, in a medium where anybody can look like anything, the artists are now hung up on 'realism' and poo poo. Realism would mean none of these characters existing in the first place.
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Jul 31, 2015 13:04
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LORD OF BUTT posted:...uh, does she have a cock? Because it looks like she has a cock. Don't labiashame. Diet Poison posted:Anyway, more Emma! I reject this picture outright because she's wearing black. She was the White Queen -- she does not wear black. 
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Jul 31, 2015 13:09
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prefect posted:Don't labiashame. Eh, she hasn't gone by "The White Queen" in ages, though. She's pretty much been "Emma Frost" since she joined the X-Men and that was, what, back when Whedon was doing Astonishing? Long time now. She's entitled to change up her wardrobe now if she likes.
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Jul 31, 2015 13:13
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Sure but Emma Frost, not Emma Oilslick or Emma Lump of Coal.
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Jul 31, 2015 13:15
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Scott and her are going through their goth/anti-authoritarian phase right now.
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Jul 31, 2015 13:40
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Now here's some Alex Ross art I can get behind.
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Jul 31, 2015 14:29
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Flesh Forge posted:Sure but Emma Frost, not Emma Oilslick or Emma Lump of Coal. You've never heard of black ice?
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Jul 31, 2015 15:23
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