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CommieGIR posted:
I'm not convinced that this justifies attempting to shout down any unflattering observations about a belief system.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:39
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TheImmigrant posted:Because both are religions, but it's only kosher to criticize Christianity, because racism and colonialism. The best way to fight racism is to behave like the racist, but with a kosher target. Islam is sacred, because Headgear and colonialism. Christianity is evil, because the Republican Party, and like some poo poo that happened five hundred years ago. And the Crusades, always remember the Crusades. Jesus christ  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 3, 2015 23:51
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CommieGIR posted:
I mean, the problems aren't really the criticisms, they're the weird theorizing that comes after it. "Muslims tend to be really conservative about gay rights" is a criticism, "And therefore they are just waiting to throw the gays off buildings and you can never trust a Muslim because they are constitutionally forbidden from interpreting scripture by their God-King, the Caliph" isn't "criticizing Muslims" - it's just making stuff up because it's sexy.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:59
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TheImmigrant posted:I'm not convinced that this justifies attempting to shout down any unflattering observations about a belief system. Of course not! But lest we forget: The number one victims of Muslim Extremists are Muslims. So why are White, Christian, Americans so heavily concerned about Muslims? Even better, when they are groups run by dipshits like Pamela Geller whose whole purpose is to stir up racist ideals in the public. And groups like the Tea Party who think America needs to be a Christian nation and seriously propose breaking down the Church/State separation.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:59
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Sethex posted:
It's kinda hard to see where those numbers are coming from but it's important to note that the survey excluded India, most of the Arabian Peninsula, and a lot of North Africa.
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Aug 4, 2015 00:00
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V. Illych L. posted:not sure i'd accept that the klan are a primarily christian group, though they obviously mix a weird christianity in with their odious racism As much as I would like to disown the more odious members of my faith, I cannot and still keep a semblance of intellectual honesty. And while I believe in universalism, it is not widely accepted and I'm basically a heretic. Religion isn't just a set of beliefs, its also part of people's ethnic and cultural identity.
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Aug 4, 2015 00:08
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Mandy Thompson posted:Religion isn't just a set of beliefs, its also part of people's ethnic and cultural identity. So is football, cruelty to animals, and institutionalised bigotry. Just because it's important to people doesn't mean you have to be nice about it if it's also really dumb and/or harmful. computer parts posted:It's kinda hard to see where those numbers are coming from but it's important to note that the survey excluded India, most of the Arabian Peninsula, and a lot of North Africa. Three regions renowned for having so effectively embraced liberal principles like gender equality. I'm sure they were left out because they would have skewed the poll so outrageously in favour of modern, progressive sensibilities. icantfindaname posted:Which is why there are no Christian churches that sanction gay marriages, seeing as homosex is similarly condemned by normative Pauline Christianity Except for the ones that do like the Episcopal church and a whole shitload of Lutherans. Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 00:10
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Mandy Thompson posted:Religion isn't just a set of beliefs, its also part of people's ethnic and cultural identity. So is political affiliation, for many. Religious adherence is not immutable. I'll give that it's more important to identity than a person's favorite color, but it is not on a level with skin color or gender. If there's a tension between the principles of gender equality and nondiscrimination of religion, the latter must cede to the former.
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Aug 4, 2015 00:19
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Abner Cadaver II posted:I sincerely hope they aren't advocating it. I'm asking the question because this view of Islam as a monolithic foe to modernity is one also held by the people who do think the only or best option is some good old fashioned colonial imperialism. If, by your definition, supporting secular, constitutional systems (even ones with problematic human rights records) and doing everything practical to hinder the progress of Islamist movements is "old fashioned colonial imperialism", then yes, I suppose I am guilty of supporting it. Congratulations; you have just debased the definition of colonialism to the point it has no meaning to anyone except the most die-hard cultural relativists. This exact process has been the primary source of the hard-right nationalists rise to prominence in Europe; nice job with that one, multiculturalists.
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Aug 4, 2015 01:14
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TheImmigrant posted:Religious governance is, almost by definition, incompatible with modernity, and the concept of secularism/laïcité seems anathema to the dominant strands of contemporary Islam. this is funny see, because outside of france turkey is one of the best examples of laicite. i guess just pretend one of the most important muslim middle eastern countries doesn't exist because it's inconvenient for your argument?
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Aug 4, 2015 01:26
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Swedish towns giving in to Islamists by introducing separate swimmings hours for men and women, says Iraqi-born women's rights activist Sara Mohammad:Sara Mohammad posted:
But since pockets of Americans are racist we shouldn't look to this as an example of cultural sensitivity gone awry.
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Aug 4, 2015 01:26
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icantfindaname posted:this is funny see, because outside of france turkey is one of the best examples of laicite. i guess just pretend one of the most important muslim middle eastern countries doesn't exist because it's inconvenient for your argument? 
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Aug 4, 2015 01:34
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icantfindaname posted:this is funny see, because outside of france turkey is one of the best examples of laicite. i guess just pretend one of the most important muslim middle eastern countries doesn't exist because it's inconvenient for your argument? Turkey is not a Muslim state. It is a secular state whose population is overwhelmingly Muslim. Unfortunately, the secularism there is eroding.
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Aug 4, 2015 01:37
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icantfindaname posted:this is funny see, because outside of france turkey is one of the best examples of laicite. i guess just pretend one of the most important muslim middle eastern countries doesn't exist because it's inconvenient for your argument? Like you similarly pretended major Christian denominations don't exist, you mean?
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Aug 4, 2015 01:54
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TheImmigrant posted:Turkey is not a Muslim state. It is a secular state whose population is overwhelmingly Muslim. Unfortunately, the secularism there is eroding. you said TheImmigrant posted:the concept of secularism/laïcité seems anathema to the dominant strands of contemporary Islam. So if normal, orthodox Sunnism is what is practiced in Turkey by the majority of the population, what gives????? Are the borders of Turkey some kind of magic artifact within which Sunni Islam can be practiced without fundamentalism and outside of which it cannot? Maybe the Turks are just Übermenschen with superior genetics? Smudgie Buggler posted:Like you similarly pretended major Christian denominations don't exist, you mean? yes, that's the joke. i'm saying christianity is no different from islam in terms of people following its normative rules. that is to say lots of self-id'd adherents don't 
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 02:20
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icantfindaname posted:you said You sound very indignant, but unsure why you are indignant. Stop sputtering, and think about it.
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Aug 4, 2015 02:51
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CommieGIR posted:
Yes, because Islamic apologists never refrain from irresponsibly labeling critics of the theological & eschatological aspects of Islam from a materialist point of view as racists, bigots, and "Islamophobes" from those who believe Muslims in general are mass murdering psychopaths like ISIS, right? There's an entire industry of self-described liberals & leftists who intentionally exploit this for their own gain, fame, and careers. Glenn Greenwald & Reza Aslan come to mind in particular.
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Aug 4, 2015 02:53
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TheImmigrant posted:You sound very indignant, but unsure why you are indignant. Stop sputtering, and think about it. It's not my job to formulate an argument for you. The arguments you've made thus far are easily, hilariously disprovable. So, get to work on the thinking yourself I guess? Or don't, and I'll keep calling out your arguments as dumb and wrong as long as you keep making them
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Aug 4, 2015 02:56
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TheImmigrant posted:You sound very indignant, but unsure why you are indignant. Stop sputtering, and think about it. What he said makes sense. Your positing that true Islam is incompatible with a secular state. In Turkey, though it's under threat from the fundamentalist tide in the area, is a secular state. Albania, which has been majority Muslim for the whole time it's been a parliamentary republic is another example. The way you've structured your argument, one or the other of those examples proves you wrong. In addition, you have the population of Azerbijan, whose population is overwhelmingly Islam--91%--but have at least almost half of those saying that religion is not a very important part of their life. You can have a secular state with a muslim population that are part of the dominant strands of Islam, unless for some reason you think you get to decide that those bunch Muslims are actually heretics and not mainstream, in which case you're just defining terms so that you're right.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:04
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I think the problem here, that I finally figured out in another thread, is it makes no sense to non-religious people like myself, who weren't raised religious, why you would identify as being the member of a certain religion if you don't agree with its beliefs. It still makes no sense to me, but I accept that there are people who identify as Muslim, who do not necessarily structure their lives according to the Quran, or believe that it's a necessary part of being a Muslim. I have no problem with those people, but no part of me understands why they identify as Muslims or find it desirable to identify as Muslim. If you're just going to pick and choose the bits you like, why bother identifying with a religion at all? Many Muslim fundamentalists have no problem saying that various backward cultural practices, like female genital mutilation, are endorsed by Islam; why, then, can't people who don't really believe all that strongly in Islam simply appropriate the parts of it they wish to practice under the guise of culture? It would be the same process working in reverse. PT6A fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 03:18
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PT6A posted:I think the problem here, that I finally figured out in another thread, is it makes no sense to non-religious people like myself, who weren't raised religious, why you would identify as being the member of a certain religion if you don't agree with its beliefs. It still makes no sense to me, but I accept that there are people who identify as Muslim, who do not necessarily structure their lives according to the Quran, or believe that it's a necessary part of being a Muslim. I have no problem with those people, but no part of me understands why they identify as Muslims or find it desirable to identify as Muslim. Everyone picks and chooses the bits they like. it's a spectrum.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:22
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Obdicut posted:Everyone picks and chooses the bits they like. it's a spectrum. I realize that, but I don't understand it. What's the point of having a supreme being telling you what to do if you just stick your fingers in your ears for the bits you don't like?
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Aug 4, 2015 03:23
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PT6A posted:I realize that, but I don't understand it. What's the point of having a supreme being telling you what to do if you just stick your fingers in your ears for the bits you don't like? There is no alternative for a religious person. What do you imagine the alternative to be?
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Aug 4, 2015 03:25
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Obdicut posted:There is no alternative for a religious person. What do you imagine the alternative to be? Saying, "I believe X, Y, and Z, but I don't need to be part of an organized religion to do it?" There's parts of every holy book that have some value, that I agree with, and there's lots in every book that I disagree with as well. You don't need to label yourself in order to agree with some parts of a religion.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:29
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PT6A posted:I realize that, but I don't understand it. What's the point of having a supreme being telling you what to do if you just stick your fingers in your ears for the bits you don't like? Cultural identity? If everyone you know, have ever known, will ever know, in addition to your entire family for generations, is religious, breaking with that leaves you with no social or familial identity or support. Basically https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSoYCetG6A This is seriously the  -iest post. Lots and lots and lots of people, probably a large majority of religious people in both the West and in these countries, who don't really deep down believe in the prescribed articles of the religion, but who still identify as adherents because of tradition. Most people are not actually true believes, it's why zealots and fundies stand out as weirdos even in nominally religious societiesPT6A posted:Many Muslim fundamentalists have no problem saying that various backward cultural practices, like female genital mutilation, are endorsed by Islam; why, then, can['t] people who don't really believe all that strongly in Islam simply appropriate the parts of it they wish to practice under the guise of culture? It would be the same process working in reverse. I'm assuming that is supposed to be 'can't' not 'can' They can and do, this is what many nominally religious people do, in fact. They just don't bother to actively and vocally break with the religion's precepts icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 03:29
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PT6A posted:Saying, "I believe X, Y, and Z, but I don't need to be part of an organized religion to do it?" Yes, technically someone can believe in the Resurrection without calling themselves a Christian but it's kind of pointless.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:37
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icantfindaname posted:I'm assuming that is supposed to be 'can't' not 'can' Good catch, that was a typo on my part. Still, I think a lot of these arguments come up because people aren't making the distinction between: a) Islam, defined by the Quran and the hadiths b) Islam, as defined by the common practices and beliefs of people who call themselves Muslims (replace Islam with Christianity and the point still holds) Depending on what regions of the world you look at, I can't imagine anyone having a significant problem with the latter group, but at the same time, I can't imagine anyone finding the former to be acceptable in the modern world. PT6A fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 03:41
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PT6A posted:Saying, "I believe X, Y, and Z, but I don't need to be part of an organized religion to do it?" Well, they probably identify themselves as "Muslim" not because they feel they need to, I'm not sure why you'd assume that. They might identify themselves that way out of inertia--they still believe in what they consider the core precepts of the religion. Or because they're still culturally bound to it. There are plenty of Jews whose beliefs are mostly agnostic who still do the High Holidays. If you think all religions are kinda wrong, but they're all kinda right, why not stick with the one you're familiar with and make your grandma happy?
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Aug 4, 2015 03:44
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PT6A posted:I realize that, but I don't understand it. What's the point of having a supreme being telling you what to do if you just stick your fingers in your ears for the bits you don't like? Well for one thing they don't PERCEIVE themselves as sticking their fingers in their ears for the bits they don't like.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:46
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Obdicut posted:Well, they probably identify themselves as "Muslim" not because they feel they need to, I'm not sure why you'd assume that. They might identify themselves that way out of inertia--they still believe in what they consider the core precepts of the religion. Or because they're still culturally bound to it. There are plenty of Jews whose beliefs are mostly agnostic who still do the High Holidays. If you think all religions are kinda wrong, but they're all kinda right, why not stick with the one you're familiar with and make your grandma happy? I celebrate Christmas and I believe in certain things that Jesus said, but that doesn't make me a Christian because I don't believe in God, and therefore I don't and cannot believe in the divinity of Christ. My cultural practices and feelings toward the religion notwithstanding, I think it would be absurd for me to self-identify as a Christian, or for someone to judge "what Christians believe" based on my personal beliefs and behaviours.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:48
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PT6A posted:I celebrate Christmas and I believe in certain things that Jesus said, but that doesn't make me a Christian because I don't believe in God, and therefore I don't and cannot believe in the divinity of Christ. My cultural practices and feelings toward the religion notwithstanding, I think it would be absurd for me to self-identify as a Christian, or for someone to judge "what Christians believe" based on my personal beliefs and behaviours. Most of the ones that don't actually believe probably aren't going to admit as such, possibly even to themselves, but that's going to be a minority compared to people that want to be a Good Member of Their Religion, because being a Good Member of Their Religion is a Good Thing, and they also want to Drink Booze/Eat Meat on Friday/Not Actually Perform Any Charity, and will simply tell themselves that part isn't THAT important, and do their best to ignore the voice in the back of their head going "yes it is and you know it."
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Aug 4, 2015 03:53
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PT6A posted:I celebrate Christmas and I believe in certain things that Jesus said, but that doesn't make me a Christian because I don't believe in God, and therefore I don't and cannot believe in the divinity of Christ. My cultural practices and feelings toward the religion notwithstanding, I think it would be absurd for me to self-identify as a Christian, or for someone to judge "what Christians believe" based on my personal beliefs and behaviours. Okay, I was talking about agnostics and not atheists, and about the people who think there's a god but that all religions are both wrong and accurate. Obviously as an atheist, you're different than them. These Muslims actually do believe in God. They just say religion isn't a very important part of their life.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:54
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PT6A posted:I celebrate Christmas and I believe in certain things that Jesus said, but that doesn't make me a Christian because I don't believe in God, and therefore I don't and cannot believe in the divinity of Christ. My cultural practices and feelings toward the religion notwithstanding, I think it would be absurd for me to self-identify as a Christian, or for someone to judge "what Christians believe" based on my personal beliefs and behaviours. Not necessarily. There's definitely a cultural component to it, independent of belief, but identity is up to each person, and observance fitful. I remember sitting at the bar years ago with my roommate, who was from Algeria. We were pounding whiskeys chased with beers. Munchies had us decide to order a pizza, but he balked at pepperoni, slurring "Dude, I'm Muslim." Similarly, my cousin (we're Jewish) is atheist, doesn't eat pork, but devours oysters and other shellfish. There's what I call derivative or nominal religion, and active religion.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:01
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Why the gently caress are y'all still talking about dumb poo poo like true Islam. I thought we dispensed with that kind of idiocy 13 pages ago.icantfindaname posted:yes, that's the joke. i'm saying christianity is no different from islam in terms of people following its normative rules. that is to say lots of self-id'd adherents don't I see. I'll adjust the old sarcasmometer.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:06
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PT6A posted:I think the problem here, that I finally figured out in another thread, is it makes no sense to non-religious people like myself, who weren't raised religious, why you would identify as being the member of a certain religion if you don't agree with its beliefs. Because neither "liberal" nor "conservative" (these are bad terms, but we'll go with them) Muslims agree that we are holding to a religion when we don't agree with it's beliefs. We agree with the straight path: we disagree about a variety of things that are said to make up that path. This is not a flaw: Disagreement between scholars is a mercy. Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 04:13
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This thread is stupid. With Volks permission I'd like to make it slightly less stupid. I'd like to go through the entire Quran one surrah at a time and see if that improves the quality of discussion a bit. I'd do it on a mostly daily basis(job has inconsistent hours. If I have a 15 hour shift I'm not writing poo poo), and go throught the major themes and and any controversial aspects of that surrah, as well as its context within Mohammad's own lifetime. Y'all can then bitch about the Saracen menace in a focused fashion. Schizotek fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 04:50
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Schizotek posted:This thread is stupid. With Volks permission I'd like to make it slightly less stupid. I'd like to go through the entire Quran one surrah at a time and see if that improves the quality of discussion a bit. I'd do it on a mostly daily basis(job has inconsistent hours. If I have a 15 hour shift I'm not writing poo poo), and go throught the major themes and and any controversial aspects of that surrah, as well as its context within Mohammad's own lifetime. This is actually a great idea. I'll help carry it, if needed.
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Aug 4, 2015 05:16
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Sound great schizotek.
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Aug 4, 2015 05:44
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Immortan posted:Yes, because Islamic apologists never refrain from irresponsibly labeling critics of the theological & eschatological aspects of Islam from a materialist point of view as racists, bigots, and "Islamophobes" from those who believe Muslims in general are mass murdering psychopaths like ISIS, right? There's an entire industry of self-described liberals & leftists who intentionally exploit this for their own gain, fame, and careers. Glenn Greenwald & Reza Aslan come to mind in particular. Well actually you are largely racists, bigots and Islamophobes, and there's nothing irresponsible about acknowledging it. Perhaps the disconnect is that those of us who recognize it can see through the sleight of hand and you can't. "We're just academic critics of theology! Who happen to advocate violent and discriminatory policy against human beings! Because we hate them for half coherent reasons!" By the way I'm laughing at the idea that defending Muslims, the most openly loathed people in the west, is a cynical and dishonest career choice made to maximize career opportunities. I would suggest that a much more successful strategy is to parley one's left bonafides into a Principled Advocacy of wars the Beltway desires and the prejudices that the mass of the middle class are predisposed to anyway, such as what Hitchens did with the last few years of his life. Tezzor fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 06:39
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Tezzor posted:Well actually you are largely racists, bigots and Islamophobes, and there's nothing irresponsible about acknowledging it. Perhaps the disconnect is that those of us who recognize it can see through the sleight of hand and you can't. "We're just academic critics of theology! Who happen to advocate violent and discriminatory policy against human beings! Because we hate them for half coherent reasons!" You can't criticize beliefs which violate every known natural law of the universe only if brown people believe them. Tezzor won't allow it, folks. Pack your poo poo.
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Aug 4, 2015 06:49
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