|
Baby Babbeh posted:Sometimes giving a range works out for you. Last time I switched jobs, when asked I told them my real range+10 percent, and then they gave me the top of that range for some reason. I'm not sure if I'm good at negotiating or this company is just bad at it. Your range wasn't high enough on the high end.
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 01:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:46 |
|
|
Baby Babbeh posted:Sometimes giving a range works out for you. Last time I switched jobs, when asked I told them my real range+10 percent, and then they gave me the top of that range for some reason. I'm not sure if I'm good at negotiating or this company is just bad at it. Thought experiment: what if you had just told them the top of your range plus 10%?
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 13:03
|
|
|
STOP GIVING RANGES Why would you give a range instead of giving one number which is the number at the top of the range?
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 16:35
|
|
|
Baby Babbeh posted:Sometimes giving a range works out for you. Last time I switched jobs, when asked I told them my real range+10 percent, and then they gave me the top of that range for some reason. I'm not sure if I'm good at negotiating or this company is just bad at it. You're bad at negotiating. They were probably willing to shell out a whole lot more, but gladly gave you the price you wanted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 17:04
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:STOP GIVING RANGES I gave a hard number on my job application, but when they called I let it slip when they wanted to verify it. Bad habit I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 18:29
|
|
|
Try to avoid giving a number at all, if you can help it. I just got a job offer that was 10k more than I would have asked for, because I'm a big dummy apparently.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 19:48
|
|
|
triplexpac posted:Try to avoid giving a number at all, if you can help it. I just got a job offer that was 10k more than I would have asked for, because I'm a big dummy apparently. A lot of places won't even consider you without you providing one.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 20:40
|
|
|
ProSlayer posted:A lot of places won't even consider you without you providing one. Give a big number. If you must give a range, think of the top of your actual range, and then use that as the bottom of your imaginary range which is the one you tell the person.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 21:04
|
|
|
ProSlayer posted:A lot of places won't even consider you without you providing one. Well that's why I said "if you can help it"! haha. I know it's not always the case, I'm just saying try to avoid giving a number if you can do it without frustrating the interviewer. It's a pretty common negotiating tactic, try to not be the first person to give a number.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 22:35
|
|
|
ProSlayer posted:A lot of places won't even consider you without you providing one. Right, it's good advice, but it can be really difficult to avoid, especially in a phone screen where you want to give the recruiter a good enough impression to pass your resume along. "So what sort of salary are you looking for?" "You know it really depends on the responsibilities of the position, what are you looking to pay?" "Well, it really depends on the candidate, what do you make right now?" You can be blunt and say you aren't comfortable telling them, but it just makes the interview awkward and I think is ultimately worse than just giving a high range. I think it can be easy to avoid giving your current salary (there's no reason they need to know that), but sometimes you need a ready response when it comes to what you're looking for. Xandu fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Aug 5, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2015 23:03
|
|
|
I have been stubbornly insistent on getting salary numbers from interviewers without tanking my candidacy; to the point of saying: "You can disclose what kind of salary you are looking to pay to me, or I can pass on discussing this position any further." and gotten their salary target plus continued engagement in the interviewing process. I generally will make this kind of play only when approached by a company and when I'm ambivalent about it with regards to the concerns outside of salary. Showing an interviewer that you have a spine and some sense of how to negotiate and how to stand your ground is not a bad thing (it's not a good thing either, it's a skill you can demonstrate that will grossly offend some people and impress others). But when you can, don't give a number. If you can't, give one number that is higher than you would expect to be paid that they can negotiate down from. If you can't give one number, give a range which the bottom of is the previous number. But I've literally never ever ever had anyone demand a range. If you volunteer a range unasked you're being a dope.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2015 14:30
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:I generally will make this kind of play only when approached by a company and when I'm ambivalent about it with regards to the concerns outside of salary. Showing an interviewer that you have a spine and some sense of how to negotiate and how to stand your ground is not a bad thing (it's not a good thing either, it's a skill you can demonstrate that will grossly offend some people and impress others). This is part of why already having a job is the best time to be interviewing, since you don't need the job. If the company/HR/interviewer are being knobs about the process you can just tell them to go piss up a rope and consider it a bullet dodged. If someone is trying to poach you they should make the process as easy as fuckin' possible. If they can't even pretend to be easy to work with when they should be trying to impress and woo you, how awful do you think they are going to be on a daily basis once you're hired? I occasionally follow up on recruiters if it's something that actually sounds interesting (rare, but it happens), and if they aren't looking to skip all that kind of BS then I just end the conversation. It's not the kind of place I want to work for, especially not when I already have a good job. Guinness fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Aug 6, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2015 20:33
|
|
|
Guinness posted:If someone is trying to poach you they should make the process as easy as fuckin' possible. If they can't even pretend to be easy to work with when they should be trying to impress and woo you, how awful do you think they are going to be on a daily basis once you're hired? Step 1: Wait for them to call the number first Step 2: If they insist once, ask to call the number first (the usual "what kind of pay is currently offered to a similar role within your company" reversal) Step 3: If they insist on knowing your number being a deal breaker and sufficient effort has been put to reverse it, name a high number, say 10-15% above expectation, with a caveat that "my final number will depend on the entirety of the package, better understanding of the role and what it entails" Thoughts? EDIT: To beef up the reversal technique I will be trying the 'positive no' (yes/no/yes? or yes/yes?): Recruiter: Name your number or else Me: I agree that understanding the compatibility of our expectations is essential (yes). I am currently bound by a company policy that may penalize me for revealing salary information to third parties (no), therefore, in order to avoid this penalty while still meeting our mutual objective, I prefer if you could share with me a typical range/number for a position of similar scope and calibre (yes?). The Capitulator fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Aug 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2015 11:30
|
|
|
Is there any well known company that explicitly prevents employees from sharing their salary information? I've seen that advice, that you can't share salary due to company policy, given a lot but never actually heard of a company that does it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2015 14:18
|
|
|
asur posted:Is there any well known company that explicitly prevents employees from sharing their salary information? I've seen that advice, that you can't share salary due to company policy, given a lot but never actually heard of a company that does it. This kind of thing would seem to degrade into grade school "nu-uh", "uh-huh" type nonsense. Or the person wouldn't believe you but wouldn't say anything. It seems so much easier to just drop an inflated number if you're in a good position or a more conservative number you think they'll jump at if you have been unemployed for 6 months and have bills to pay (if they really seem to be pushing the issue). If getting that good position for the big raise takes a few moves, so be it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2015 15:45
|
|
|
The Capitulator posted:Recruiter: Name your number or else This sounds like the worst of both worlds: You don't give them the lowball answer they're after plus you sound like a spineless company man hiding behind policy. Just own your refusal to go first. Talk to some lovely recruiters about lovely jobs if you need the practice. It definitely gets easier. E: Wrong quote. Kobayashi fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Aug 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2015 18:31
|
|
|
edit tldr: - Interning at a company - Discussing full time, haven't gone through the interview+presentation+test+etc process yet, but my team wants me - Recruiter wants to talk salary before this process so we don't waste either of our times, wants me to give a number/range - I insist on not giving a number and am more comfortable discussing after, or he can give me a range so that I can decide whether or not to continue with the interview process - He declines, says that idea sucks pretty much - I try yet again - He declines, says he could say a range but, word for word: "our ranges are wide so if i was to give you one it wouldn't really help you to make your decision " - I finally say okay, I'll give him a number next week. How high of a number should I ask for? Applying for a materials engineering position, somewhat niche. Glassdoor: Mechanical Engineer, 78k-130k, 97k average (48 reports) Manufacturing engineer: 82k-118k, 96k avg (32 reports) Design engineer, 76k-128k, 99.6k avg (30 reports) Mechanical design engineer: 72k-117k, 92k avg (10 reports) I'm afraid of asking for the 100s because of my lack of experience. I've also heard rumors of starting salaries are mid 70s to mid 80s. Really not sure what number will be too high/out of their range/scare them off. I was really hoping for low 80s but now it sounds like I could get a lot higher... maybe...? Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Aug 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 00:25
|
|
|
Blinky2099 posted:edit tldr: Are you comfortable asking your manager to go to bat for you? If so, you might tell him you feel like part of the team and are already working as a contributing member, so you don't want to come in at strictly entry level.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 01:49
|
|
|
Blinky2099 posted:edit tldr: You're just starting and would be happy with low 80s. The ranges you've given here indicate that entry level people make mid-70s. As indicated above, you're the known quantity which is worth about 5k. Opening with 86k wouldn't strike me as audacious.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 02:10
|
|
|
Blinky2099 posted:edit tldr: Either way, you're an intern. Take the job regardless of the offer and work it for 2 years. Then use your two years of experience, connections, and networking to get the job you actually want at the salary you want. Put in the work.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 02:23
|
|
|
asur posted:Is there any well known company that explicitly prevents employees from sharing their salary information? I've seen that advice, that you can't share salary due to company policy, given a lot but never actually heard of a company that does it. There's a story of a woman who worked at Google and started a spreadsheet for employees to voluntarily share their salaries and faced retaliation from management as a direct result. I'd be more worried about that than "company policy" unless a contract put me under an NDA relating to my salary (which is probably a terrible contract that would take a lot of money to get me to sign).
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 02:26
|
|
|
Tao Jones posted:There's a story of a woman who worked at Google and started a spreadsheet for employees to voluntarily share their salaries and faced retaliation from management as a direct result. I'd be more worried about that than "company policy" unless a contract put me under an NDA relating to my salary (which is probably a terrible contract that would take a lot of money to get me to sign).
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 02:39
|
|
|
So for my recent job negotiation I was bullied by HR (giant massive corporation) to give a desired number. I told them greater than X. My real minimum I would've taken was X minus 5k. The offer came in at X minus 6k. I reminded them that I told them "Greater than X" second offer came in at X plus 6k which was perfect. I also negotiated an additional 5k in relocation. I was glad in retrospect that I gave a number because it made negotiation much easier for me personally. This is because 8 could reference that number I had told HR. There's no way I could've gotten more than a few thousand more than I did so it was a great outcome even with breaking a few of the standard "rules"
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 05:28
|
|
|
Tao Jones posted:There's a story of a woman who worked at Google and started a spreadsheet for employees to voluntarily share their salaries and faced retaliation from management as a direct result. I'd be more worried about that than "company policy" unless a contract put me under an NDA relating to my salary (which is probably a terrible contract that would take a lot of money to get me to sign). While as noted above I believe this is illegal, it's also substantially different. A company cares about coworkers sharing salary information as they then have to justify everyone's salary. The same isn't true when you share with a company and I can't see a company really caring. Dik Hz: Go ask your manager what the pay range is for the position he wants to hire you for. Then give a number in the middle to high end of that range. Someone else mentioned not starting at entry level but that seems highly unlikely unless you have more experience than 1 internship.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 09:32
|
|
|
Boot and Rally posted:You're just starting and would be happy with low 80s. The ranges you've given here indicate that entry level people make mid-70s. As indicated above, you're the known quantity which is worth about 5k. Opening with 86k wouldn't strike me as audacious. This is the correct answer. No new engineers make more than 85 unless they're petroleum and lol that isn't even happening right now because they can't get hired at all
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 13:11
|
|
|
asur posted:Dik Hz: Go ask your manager what the pay range is for the position he wants to hire you for. Then give a number in the middle to high end of that range. Someone else mentioned not starting at entry level but that seems highly unlikely unless you have more experience than 1 internship. I agree that it is highly unlikely to get much beyond entry level. However, insisting known first timers give a number comes off as attempting to trap people into quoting low numbers. If there was a entry level value that was set in stone, they wouldn't be so insistent on a number. Blinky has done their research and determined the average for this job is in the 90s. He knows that unless he gives them a super sweetheart of a deal they are going to try and bust him down a few thousand. So he should ask for something like mid-80s. This should make him look like he known quantity who understands he provides less value (because he is new, not because it is true). Dik Hz is absolutely right, you need to make sure you'll consider total benefits packages and not just dollars. Tell them you are ready to provide a number but that benefits are important and you'd like to know a little bit about them first so you have a better idea of what the package looks like in total. If they insist on a number, right now, give em a number but make sure you qualify it like: "Not knowing anything about the benefits package, I would say 86k a year would be reasonable." Asking about benefits is not some ruse used as a delaying tactic; it is extremely important. Does the company offer a 401k or a match for that 401k? Do they have you chip in monthly for your healthcare? For example, if you make 75k but have a 5% 401k match and no out of pocket monthly healthcare costs you make the same as a guy who makes 81k with no match and $200 a month for healthcare. Finally, as was mentioned before: however the negotiation ends, forget about what could have been, take the job, gain experience and jump ship in two years when you have a stable job (you hopefully like) and have a strong enough position to maybe even break 100k.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 16:07
|
|
|
Kobayashi posted:This sounds like the worst of both worlds: You don't give them the lowball answer they're after plus you sound like a spineless company man hiding behind policy. Just own your refusal to go first. Talk to some lovely recruiters about lovely jobs if you need the practice. It definitely gets easier. I'm after what I want - an offer, I don't care if this recruiter thinks I sound like a "company man" or that I'm bluffing. The point is to get them to name the number first without either of us walking away. To do that, I threw a 'higher authority' anchor to refuse my turn, it's a common negotiation tactic. PS: the "company policy" may not be a thing in US, but where I am, it's definitely a thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 16:07
|
|
|
The Capitulator posted:I'm after what I want - an offer, I don't care if this recruiter thinks I sound like a "company man" or that I'm bluffing. The point is to get them to name the number first without either of us walking away. To do that, I threw a 'higher authority' anchor to refuse my turn, it's a common negotiation tactic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 17:18
|
|
|
For what it's worth, it's my third internship not my first, but that's not a lot of additional experience. I'll probably just get entry-level and might be able to squeeze out ~85k at best. I'll throw out a number in the high 80's and see what happens. Thanks all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 18:09
|
|
|
Blinky2099 posted:For what it's worth, it's my third internship not my first, but that's not a lot of additional experience. I'll probably just get entry-level and might be able to squeeze out ~85k at best. I'll throw out a number in the high 80's and see what happens. Thanks all. Edit: Everyone is underpaid on their first job. Put in the work. You'll get what you're worth on your second job after you're a proven quantity. Never not network, especially when you're at a job you like. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Aug 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 21:10
|
|
|
Dik Hz posted:I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but third internship? Doing more than one internship is going to make people wonder why you didn't get an offer after the first or second. But, you do sound like you know the job market and you sound confidant about your current internship, so I think you'll do fine. Just don't tell them you're not entry-level because you've done three internships. e; graduating by taking my last small handful of classes online since I have <1 semester left. It'll be part of the full time offer agreement. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Aug 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 21:12
|
|
|
It's not uncommon in engineering to do multiple internships over the summers while in college. One after freshman, sophomore, and junior years. Sometimes you might intern with different companies or some companies might prefer you to do co-ops where you work over the summer then take a semester off to continue working for them all before going back to school and finishing your degree. Or you could do three summer internships with the same company. To the OP, I doubt you have a lot of negotiating room being that you're entry level. From what I've seen, being a good intern will help you get a job offer but, at least at my large engineering company, the entry level salaries are fixed by HR for the year. Upper 80s would likely be a stretch but it couldn't hurt to ask. If they refuse to budge, at least work on the signing bonus, for us that was definitely an area that some people negotiated for.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2015 21:17
|
|
|
swenblack posted:Please don't tell people to do this. It comes across as weak and needlessly antagonistic. Also, why did you throw an anchor? I wouldn't have thought to bring an anchor to the interview. EDIT: Never mind, let's just move along. The Capitulator fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Aug 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2015 16:17
|
|
|
I recently qualified to do a relatively niche job (migration agent - that's a separate thing from being a lawyer here) that has pretty decent career prospects, although entry-level positions at actual companies aren't popping up quite as often as I'd like. I saw an ad today looking for people for an unpaid internship with the potential for employment in the future. Now, I don't personally believe unpaid internships are at all ethical and I have no intention of doing one. I'm considering applying to them anyway but making a case for why they should be paying me for my efforts. I know they're probably just going to take someone who applies without that stipulation but I figure I have nothing to lose. What I'm wondering is if people have opinions about whether I should bring up that argument in my cover letter or wait until they potentially interview me to mention I would expect to be paid for my time? I figure I have a greater chance of success if I already have them on the hook, as it were. I know they do have the budget to be paying more people working for them because the ad also mentions potential contract work (which I wouldn't be able to do due to some badly thought-out rules about registering as a migration agent that aren't worth getting into here). Is this a monumentally stupid idea that could come back to bite me in ways I haven't considered?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2015 09:27
|
|
|
Organza Quiz posted:I recently qualified to do a relatively niche job (migration agent - that's a separate thing from being a lawyer here) that has pretty decent career prospects, although entry-level positions at actual companies aren't popping up quite as often as I'd like. I saw an ad today looking for people for an unpaid internship with the potential for employment in the future. Now, I don't personally believe unpaid internships are at all ethical and I have no intention of doing one. I'm considering applying to them anyway but making a case for why they should be paying me for my efforts. I know they're probably just going to take someone who applies without that stipulation but I figure I have nothing to lose. What I'm wondering is if people have opinions about whether I should bring up that argument in my cover letter or wait until they potentially interview me to mention I would expect to be paid for my time? I figure I have a greater chance of success if I already have them on the hook, as it were. I know they do have the budget to be paying more people working for them because the ad also mentions potential contract work (which I wouldn't be able to do due to some badly thought-out rules about registering as a migration agent that aren't worth getting into here). Is this a monumentally stupid idea that could come back to bite me in ways I haven't considered?
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2015 13:07
|
|
|
Organza Quiz posted:I recently qualified to do a relatively niche job (migration agent - that's a separate thing from being a lawyer here) that has pretty decent career prospects, although entry-level positions at actual companies aren't popping up quite as often as I'd like. I saw an ad today looking for people for an unpaid internship with the potential for employment in the future. Now, I don't personally believe unpaid internships are at all ethical and I have no intention of doing one. I'm considering applying to them anyway but making a case for why they should be paying me for my efforts. I know they're probably just going to take someone who applies without that stipulation but I figure I have nothing to lose. What I'm wondering is if people have opinions about whether I should bring up that argument in my cover letter or wait until they potentially interview me to mention I would expect to be paid for my time? I figure I have a greater chance of success if I already have them on the hook, as it were. I know they do have the budget to be paying more people working for them because the ad also mentions potential contract work (which I wouldn't be able to do due to some badly thought-out rules about registering as a migration agent that aren't worth getting into here). Is this a monumentally stupid idea that could come back to bite me in ways I haven't considered? What sort of company are you applying for? Most won't even consider it. Regardless, state it in your cover letter. I know what you're thinking with getting them on the hook, but you're just wasting everyone's time and they probably still won't pay you and it'll give you a bad reputation at that company.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
Blinky2099 posted:edit tldr: Well, I hosed up by not asking for enough, but had no way of knowing that was the case. At least recruiting is somehow willing to (possibly) offer me more than I asked for, for some weird reason. Not too worried about the $ difference between what they're going to offer vs. ~maximum value~ since it's likely I'll be moving between a few companies for the first decade out of school. I'll count my blessings instead. Thanks for the help everyone.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 23:42
|
|
|
Anyone have any resources/advice for renegotiating while staying at the same company? Basically, I was hired during a slow period a couple of years ago when the company (a huge one) was in transition. I was also new to the area and wasn't exactly certain of the averages for the city so I didn't negotiate properly at all. Now my specific line of work is in very high demand and the company itself is doing great. I could easily job hop for +20% increase elsewhere and I'm being headhunted pretty heavily. However, I'd prefer to stay as I really like it and the other options, while they do pay higher, have their own set of negatives. I know they are offering the salary I am gunning for because I referred a friend recently and he strait up showed me his offer letter. Another coworker also divulged their salary when they left for a new position a couple months ago. I am guessing I shouldn't mention these things though. My current plan is to request a meeting and make my request known, while showing industry standards and my performance reviews (all perfect). My worry is that even though I'm basically requesting to be brought up to average, it's still a huge increase so they won't go for it. I am positive if I was hired right now I would get the number I am looking for though which makes this so strange. How firmly do I push? I don't exactly want to threaten to leave, because well I really don't want to, but I could if I had to.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 23:56
|
|
|
Wow, I'm honestly surprised entry levels are going so high. That's awesome! Sorry I gave some apparently bum advice about upper 80s being a stretch. I'm a chem-e with 8 years experience in a high cost of living area and barely make that (who's the sucker now). Goes to show how valuable it is to be a known commodity in that you interned there several times. Congrats
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 23:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:46 |
|
|
hbf posted:Anyone have any resources/advice for renegotiating while staying at the same company? Basically, I was hired during a slow period a couple of years ago when the company (a huge one) was in transition. I was also new to the area and wasn't exactly certain of the averages for the city so I didn't negotiate properly at all. Now my specific line of work is in very high demand and the company itself is doing great. I could easily job hop for +20% increase elsewhere and I'm being headhunted pretty heavily. However, I'd prefer to stay as I really like it and the other options, while they do pay higher, have their own set of negatives. I know they are offering the salary I am gunning for because I referred a friend recently and he strait up showed me his offer letter. Another coworker also divulged their salary when they left for a new position a couple months ago. I am guessing I shouldn't mention these things though. I recently went through something similar to your situation. I'm guessing at best they will meet you halfway between the difference in what you're making now and what everyone else was making. If that meets your minimum happiness quotient, then by all means stay. You'd probably be better off compensation-wise jumping ship, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2015 00:21
|
|