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So I haven't posted in this forum for about 8-9 months now, because I've actually been writing my own first novel and have just finished at around 103,000 words. I've also been putting together a sort of editing bible on the side; precedent images, editing guidelines, character synopses, system explanations so things are consistent, etc. Is this something that other people have done too? It seemed like a good idea, especially for a fantasy novel.
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Aug 6, 2015 13:38
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Having the character introduced earlier on somehow seems like it would be the best solution. The way I'm telling this story reminds me of game of thrones in the sense that each chapter tells the story of one character or another and the characters can all be interacting independantly while the story overall moves forward. However in game of thrones the very first chapter introduces like 80% of the characters and probably 90% of the really important ones, all the starks, the baratheons, the lannisters, etc. In the novel I'm working on the 7 main protagonists come from wildly different walks of life for plot reasons. In fact it almost makes more sense plot wise if none of them know each other at all (up until ~plot~ happens anyway) but i'm finagling connections between most of them in one way or another. It's not feasible for me to have one or two chapters where they all show up without stretching coincidence beyond reasonable doubt. Maybe I need to create some sort of more unifying introduction or a larger reconstruction of how I begin the story. Even if I have 7 relatively major characters most of them aren't going to show up every chapter or even every other chapter except for whoever is being the biggest players at that moment. Maybe I should just find a way to start the story with the guy who is going to be the largest factor and introduce people from that point. I'm sure I can come up with a way to connect all the people I want somehow. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Aug 6, 2015 |
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Aug 6, 2015 14:15
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Your structure actually sounds a lot like Dragon Quest IV. If you haven't played it, it starts with four chapters introducing the rest of the party in their own mini-adventures: a grizzled knight, a merchant, a princess and her attendants, and twin mages. Then in chapter 5, it goes to the Hero, and you start gathering the party and piecing the plot together from their separate storylines. The DS and mobile versions have a prologue--which I don't think is in the NES version--to briefly introduce you to the Hero before it starts the first chapter. Might not hurt to play it and see how it does it.
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Aug 6, 2015 14:57
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Agent355 posted:Secondly I don't know if it's okay to introduce the main character 30% of the way through a book. This is known as "pulling a half-Phantom Menace." For future reference, "pulling a full-Phantom Menace" is introducing the main character 30% in then giving then absolutely zero decisions to make the rest of the way. You never go full Phantom Menace.
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Aug 6, 2015 16:06
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Agent355 posted:
Start where ~plot~ happens, fill in the back story as you go from there. You don't literally need to start from the very, very beginning. At least TRY to do this and see how close you can get. You can get a lot closer than you are, I'm sure of it.
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Aug 6, 2015 19:11
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Agent355 posted:Without typing up a huge summary of why it's important to introduce the main character late let's just say I have a few options. 4. Cut everything before your protagonist shows up. Two reasons: Protagonist literally translates as "first actor," as Aristotle defined it in Poetics, and this expectation hasn't changed much since. I learned this the hard way, starting my first novel from the antagonist's POV because I thought it would be an interesting way to introduce the characters. Nope. All I did was create confusion about who the story was supposed to be about. Second, all that world-bullding you think is so important to establish context before the story begins is not as important as you think it is—because the story should only begin when the story begins. The thing is, you know yourself that the story doesn't really begin until your protagonist shows up, you've said so, and that the pacing is slow, and that this is a problem. You're just terrified to do what you need to because it's a huge decision that requires going through everything you established in those cut chapters and rewriting it into the actual story in a more natural way. At least that's my take on your general predicament based on past experience, knowing nothing about what you've actually written.
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Aug 7, 2015 02:43
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Yah I think you're right. As it stands it's not feasible for the main protagonist to be introduced when he is. Right now there are 4 chapters that take place before he shows up, 2 different characters with 2 chapters about each of them. 1 of those is the main antagonist because the story I'm writing is equally as much about the antagonist going bad as it is the good guys stopping him, the other is the character who eventually meets the protagonist and how he got there, which contain some pretty crucial plot for the story as it stands right now. So I have two options. I can rewrite how the first few events of the story take place so that I can follow the protagonist immediately, or at least pretty much immediately. or I can change the perspective of the story so that he isn't the main character. Right now I really like the story behind the bad guy and why he becomes a bad guy, it's really interesting to write about and I have alot of material to work with. I could just write the entire story from the perspective of the bad guy being the main character and it will be a fall from grace story more than a heroic tale. This is the first of three books as I see them and the end of the first book is the moment where the bad guy goes from 'empathetic but misdirected' to 'hot poo poo this guy is nuts'. i could then just start the second book from the perspective of the hero characters again with the audience now being fully set against the previous guy. I kind of like that idea but I'm not sure if I could write it in such a way to make it interesting enough to be the main focus point of the book. I really wanted to make it a recurring part of the book having a chapter of what the antagonist is doing every now and then and have this sort of slow evolution as he is forced to push himself further and further to accomplish the thing he set out to do. It would need some fleshing out if it were to be the entire thing. As it stands chapter 1 is antagonist, chapter 2 is character (bob) who meets protagonist, chapter 3 is antagonist again, and chapter 4 is when the hero is introduced. I could change it so that chapter 1 is protagonist, chapter 2 would then be the antagonist, chapter 3 would be the protagonist meeting bob but from the protagonists perspective instead of bob's, and chapter 4 continues the antagonist story. Then it's a bunch of main protagonist and other protagonists showing up and doing poo poo while the antagonist appears from time to time. I think that would probably work better. Oh and just to be clear when I say 'a bunch of world building' what I really mean is I have a few plot points I feel (as the story currently works) are nessecary to have happen before the protagonist can show up as they wouldn't work so well as backflash/fill in the story later sort of stuff. Which also gives me the opportunity to explain the important bits about how the world works. I don't want to give the impression that I just have 2-3 chapters where I say 'and in the land of narnia they use acorns for money!' and just list a bunch of inane poo poo that isn't really important. Thanks for your help guys I'll gladly continue to listen to any advice you have, I haven't tried to right a full fledged novel before though I have a folder of short stories I've written for fun but never done anything with. I'll probably be back from time to time looking for advice when I feel like I don't know how to handle some narrative themes or w/e.
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Aug 7, 2015 09:07
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So my protagonists, who are two out of five viewpoint characters, are going by assumed names for a large part of the story and it's meant to be known to the reader. How do I handle that when writing from their POV? Other POV, I'm just going to use their assumed names, but what about when it's their own?
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Aug 12, 2015 13:10
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painted bird posted:So my protagonists, who are two out of five viewpoint characters, are going by assumed names for a large part of the story and it's meant to be known to the reader. How do I handle that when writing from their POV? Other POV, I'm just going to use their assumed names, but what about when it's their own? Five is a lot to keep track of as it is, so the reader will have to make an effort to keep track as it is*. I'll assume you're doing this third person, so use the name the character would use to refer to themselves, and stick with that through the whole thing. If you're trying it first person, may your God have mercy on you because I won't. *If the book is broken up into individual chunks with one protagonist each so that it's almost a collection of short stories with a framing narrative, it can be a lot easier. Dan Simmons' Hyperion is my go-to example for this, although the book itself is basically a gigantic prologue for the rest of the series.
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Aug 12, 2015 20:19
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painted bird posted:So my protagonists, who are two out of five viewpoint characters, are going by assumed names for a large part of the story and it's meant to be known to the reader. How do I handle that when writing from their POV? Other POV, I'm just going to use their assumed names, but what about when it's their own? Ian Banks does this in the first book of his culture series. Definitely write it in 3rd person. Write them introducing themselves from their perspective: "Hi, I'm Dan," said Ben. He was going by the name Dan because he was a spy, you see. Hope you can write something better than that! good luck!
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Aug 13, 2015 00:28
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Does anyone here have an electronic copy of Stephen King's On Writing? On what page does he say you have to "Show up" for writing? I can't find it in my print book. Did I totally make this up?
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Aug 13, 2015 05:12
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Defenestration posted:Does anyone here have an electronic copy of Stephen King's On Writing? It's at the end of the first section, "C.V." He talks about "not coming lightly to the blank page". E: there's also part 3 of the "On Writing" section, maybe that's it. Ironic Twist fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Aug 13, 2015 |
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Aug 13, 2015 05:18
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Ironic Twist posted:It's at the end of the first section, "C.V." Am I making this up? The single most important piece of writing advice I ever heard?
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Aug 13, 2015 05:24
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Defenestration posted:I see that part, and it's close, but I remembered it all these years as the specific phrase: Show Up. Do you need to know more other than literally "show up" ? That seems to pretty much say it all.
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Aug 13, 2015 05:26
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Do you need to know more other than literally "show up" ? That seems to pretty much say it all. No, that's why it's the most important advice. I just want to cite the quote, but if he doesn't say the specific phrase "show up" then what was I remembering all these years?
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Aug 13, 2015 13:12
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Defenestration posted:No, that's why it's the most important advice. I just want to cite the quote, but if he doesn't say the specific phrase "show up" then what was I remembering all these years? Take your pick: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/06/10/showing-up/
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Aug 13, 2015 17:39
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I have a success to share. Last night I went to my second meeting as a member to the South Island Writer's Association. I had entered a story in last month's competition and I won! There are a very big range of abilities in the group, but some of the people I beat are very well established writers, including one who is a fiction editor for one of New Zealand's few literary journals. The best thing about winning was that I got to read my story in a room including some fairly respected local literary figures, including the aforementioned editor and a very well known poet who has held poetry fellowships around the world and who started the writing school I want to attend next year. Even though I am still very much developing, this felt like a pretty big moment for me.
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Aug 14, 2015 03:35
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Congratulations Newt, that's brilliant! Was it nerve-racking reading the piece out in front of people?
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Aug 14, 2015 05:06
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Did you celebrate by thrusting your hips in all of their general directions?
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Aug 14, 2015 19:51
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Just wanted to say thank you all for recommending Scrivener, it seemed to be the shot in the arm I needed: when I was in University I had a habit of writing stuff in parallel so that if I lost track of a thought I could just hop to something else and keep momentum going and this lets me do it really well. I also decided to mash two stories together because I think it creates a much more whole character arc and has more thematic cohesion, though we'll see if that works out or not.
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Aug 16, 2015 07:42
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Mercedes posted:Did you celebrate by thrusting your hips in all of their general directions? it's the only way
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Aug 16, 2015 09:30
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ManlyGrunting posted:Just wanted to say thank you all for recommending Scrivener, it seemed to be the shot in the arm I needed: when I was in University I had a habit of writing stuff in parallel so that if I lost track of a thought I could just hop to something else and keep momentum going and this lets me do it really well. I also decided to mash two stories together because I think it creates a much more whole character arc and has more thematic cohesion, though we'll see if that works out or not. scrivener is really... good. i mean, it has a learning curve for some stuff, but its really hard to write without breaking things up for me. it's just seven times easier to sit down on a blank page and go "i will write this one scene", then looking at this massive sprawl of words and add a drop in its bucket. it also does a fantastic job of letting me like, go back and edit a single scene rather than go through the daunting task of looking at entire book and go "i have to fix THIS now?" idk, breaking stuff up is like, just so much easier for my brain.
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Aug 16, 2015 21:27
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I literally just used Word 2013 with Headers to do this (with the Navigation panel on). I love it.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:03
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For Mons Hubris over in the TD thread:Mons Hubris posted:Thanks for the crits. I don't necessarily need a line by line critique because I know there are some problems, but I was trying to work with the idea of a person seeing someone they care about doing something really vile and I couldn't quite figure out how to get there. If anybody has any suggestions to that end that would be cool. Thoughts on that: 1. 'Vile' isn't necessarily the same as graphic. Sometimes understating the atrocity is more effective than hitting the reader with lots of shock sentences. You went for heavy description here, which I felt was excessively graphic (no accounting for taste, ofc). If you've ever read Iain Banks' Use of Weapons there's a key plot where the protagonist makes a chair out of the bones of his sister and whilst obviously this is horrific, at no point does the author just write it straight like "and then he made a chair out of the bones of his sister, it was grim". Instead it's just slowly and surely spelled out until the audience realises - and it's that realisation that brings the shock. Trust the audience to realise the act in question is vile. 2. It's all the context of the act. Is he just being an overreacting jerk? Not great. Is it a Sophie's Choice kinda situation? Give the protag something to react to other than their loved one doing something bad. Give it details, backstory. Essentially there's two angles here: the motivation of the actor and the reaction of the witness.
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Aug 18, 2015 01:36
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I have a confession to make. I didn't read the entire thread. Asinine, I suppose. What I really need is guidance towards figuring out if my writing is worth a poo poo. Glancing over the first page of threads, I blindly saw nothing of note. A, I simply idiotic in wondering if there is a thread where you can put forth a little snippet of flash fiction or a chunk of short story for feedback to receive honest feedback regarding whether you should even bother trying to garner any manner of notice beyond, well, yourself and maybe a few chickenshit friends and relatives who will likely never tel you the truth?
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Aug 21, 2015 05:02
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mr meowzers posted:I have a confession to make. There is a thread on the first page called "The Farm 2013. Flash Fiction and Snippets Critique Hub (<1000 Words)" where you can post flash fiction or snippets that are under 1000 words, and receive critique.
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Aug 21, 2015 05:08
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mr meowzers posted:I have a confession to make. You may also be interested in the thunderdome thread, where, if you're willing to write fresh very short fiction to the weekly prompt and risk the consequences of being worst or best, you will get regular feedback of that sort.
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Aug 21, 2015 05:54
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Well, I'm finally getting my first published credit. It's in some magazine called Down in the Dirt I found on Writer's Market and will be available on Amazon in February. I'm really excited since I've had terrible luck querying my novel this year(so many "Dear Author..." emails). It's not much, and the site looks like it may or may not be Geocities, but it's a credit. It's up online here under Wes Smith. Also, thanks goons for continuing to recommend King's "On Writing." I've never actually read a King book before, so I had no idea he was so personable. Or that he's a huge loving nerd. By far one of the best pieces of motivation I've read in months, and I'll put my hat in the ring to push it for other goons who may never have read it. Thanks, thread! 
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Aug 29, 2015 11:04
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Axel Serenity posted:Well, I'm finally getting my first published credit. It's in some magazine called Down in the Dirt I found on Writer's Market and will be available on Amazon in February. I'm really excited since I've had terrible luck querying my novel this year(so many "Dear Author..." emails). It's not much, and the site looks like it may or may not be Geocities, but it's a credit. It's up online here under Wes Smith. Congratulations! And thank you for the time machine back to the early 2000s
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Aug 29, 2015 11:13
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Not sure if this is the best place, but here we go: For all spec fic authors in AUS/NZ do read on http://www.fantasticascifi.com/novella-2015/ I am part of a small group organising a spec fic imprint and we are holding a competition to kick things off. Now there is still a month until the due date, but if you are working on a longer piece it might be worthy A little bit about us: quote:Fantastica aims to be an imprint with a difference. We want submissions from all Australian and Kiwi writers who are as dedicated to boundary-pushing speculative fiction as we are. One writer par excellence will receive $500 and publication with Xoum’s Fantastica imprint. Runner-ups will be considered for publication. And because we are nerds 
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Aug 30, 2015 03:35
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newtestleper posted:I have a success to share. Congrats on putting yourself out there and then winning!
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Aug 31, 2015 16:35
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 important question how do i write good and not not good
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Aug 31, 2015 16:37
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anime was right posted:
Stop asking, keep writing.
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Aug 31, 2015 16:54
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anime was right posted:
1. Write a thing. It will be bad. 2. Write another thing that is less bad than the bad thing you wrote in Step 1. 3. Repeat Step 2 forever.
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Aug 31, 2015 17:23
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docbeard posted:1. Write a thing. It will be bad.
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Aug 31, 2015 17:32
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Overwined posted:Stop asking, keep writing. but thats my WRITING STYLE. why cant you people get that i ask a lot of questions? UGH
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Aug 31, 2015 17:37
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anime was right posted:but thats my WRITING STYLE. why cant you people get that i ask a lot of questions? UGH I know you're being funny and stuff - but a very VERY good place to discuss and gather a lot of feedback is in a local writer group. It's essentially an author circle jerk, you give your feedback, they give their feedback, you discuss and try to find out why/how they aren't getting how edgy you are by never using the word "said". If you find a good group, it'll step up your game and your questions. If you discover you know more than almost anybody else there, find another group.
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Aug 31, 2015 17:41
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anime was right posted:
1. Read More 2. Write More 3. Close Thread
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Aug 31, 2015 17:51
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:1. Read More wait are you telling me video games are not part of the creative process? gently caress!
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Aug 31, 2015 17:55
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are you telling me i bought this pro-gaming logitech keyboard for NOTHING?!
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Aug 31, 2015 17:58
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