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Wanamingo posted:What now? As far as I know mainstream Judaism (and Islam, for that matter) views Jesus as a prophet, and the disagreement with Christianity is over whether or not he's the son of god. Judaism believes that Jesus is a prophet but not the prophet like Christianity does. Christianity basically centers entirely around Jesus being the son of God and absolving all of our sins. Judaism believes he existed and said some good stuff but was not the son of God and was not fulfilling a prophecy. Islam believes that Jesus was an important prophet but was nothing more. He was not the only prophet. Muhammad was the last one that mattered to Islam but Christianity of course believes that Islam is full of crap and Muhammad was a doofus.
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Jul 29, 2015 13:24
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Pertinently to Islam, they think that Jesus was the Messiah
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Jul 29, 2015 14:50
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icantfindaname posted:I'm not an expert here but the literal first paragraph of the wikipedia page states Yeah, "fulfillments of prophecy" means the prophecy made about the Messiah, not the requirements to be a prophet
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Jul 29, 2015 16:15
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Calling Jesus a prophet in Judaism give him a status that he very clearly doesn't have. He was just some Jew who lived a few thousand years ago in Palestine that also claimed to be the messiah. One of many in that regard but a very successful one whose followers have had a rather obvious impact on the world stage. But there is no reason anyone would award the status of prophet to a false messiah aside from, again, obvious political and politeness/ fear of persecution. Even really liberal reform Jews don't call Jesus a prophet. Edit: unless you are talking about Jews for Jesus? They are a sect of ethnic jews (sometimes) that converted to Christianity. Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 16:44
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When Evangelicals refer to the fact that they fear that Christianity is going to be "silenced" and all of the other talking points, do they only mean their own version of their faith? Like do they care about Catholicism, and say, Episcopals? I think I kind of know the answer already, because I've seen them rant against different sects for not apparently being hateful enough, but do they just consider their form of Christianity the only "true" version of it? FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 07:39
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FuzzySkinner posted:When Evangelicals refer to the fact that they fear that Christianity is going to be "silenced" and all of the other talking points, do they only mean their own version of their faith? Evangelicals only care about any other denomination within the context of these other heretical faiths also hating women and disagreeing with abortion. It's an uneasy detente. The new catholic pope has created some very uncomfortable waves within American Evangelism - and all he's done is say that poors aren't necessarily all sinners and that gays are super-bad, but shouldn't be lynched. The 1960's were a formative time for monied christianity. A lot of different rich people went completely nuts, but had enough money to have a lot of influence on modern day evangelism.
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Jul 31, 2015 08:11
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FuzzySkinner posted:When Evangelicals refer to the fact that they fear that Christianity is going to be "silenced" and all of the other talking points, do they only mean their own version of their faith? They genuinely believe that all Christianity is going to be banned. It works as a rallying cry to keep the various sects from hating each other too much.
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Jul 31, 2015 11:31
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MrNemo posted:I feel like we've hashed out the Mormon baptising thing pretty well and why many other religions would find it offensive, though the perspective that it's an attempt to answer that objection to a temporal religion of 'what happened to people who were born before the message was delivered' is an interesting one. Doesn't seem quite as good a response as Limbo, although that particular doctrine has largely gone away. Mostly the last option, I would expect. The fundamentalism version of Hell and the Devil is simply the popularly recognized version, with some minor alterations to better match their worldview. (For instance, pop-culture Satan sometimes tempts people to try and turn them to evil. Fundie Satan does this to everyone, constantly, and is thus responsible for much of the world's evil. Pop-culture Hell is a place where terrible people go; Fundie Hell is a place where everyone but the fundies go. And so forth.) The popular understanding of Satan and Hell, in turn, is heavily influenced by Inferno and Paradise Lost, as you say (mainly because the Bible itself has so little to say about those subjects) but your typical fundamentalist isn't going to be aware of that. That's partly because your typical American isn't going to know that, any more than most people know Santa wears red and white because of Coca-Cola, and partly because they regard everything religious in nature as being divinely revealed truth, and react badly to any suggestion that their sacred cows are of mortal origin.
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Jul 31, 2015 18:20
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If you guys want a great documentary on how the hell the Evangelical Political Machine works? This is definitly worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWPJyV14F54 Here's how they felt on Jimmy Carter. At first they championed him pretty heavily, and viewed him as a good, strong christian man. (He indeed was) Then they find out that he's very liberal and pro-women's rights. That pisses them off, and it completely removes their support for him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFecoWKSU34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5yPsEFHljw In walks Reagan, and the Moral Majority launching Reagan pisses them off by focusing on the economy, rather than on their own issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcRqMxzig1g Pat Robertson pretty much lays the ground work for nutjobs like Huckabee, Cruz and Bachmann to eventually run for public office/presidency. He comes very, very close to winning the nomination before (thankfully) NBC caught on and stopped that freight train of awfulness. George HW Bush looks at these people and finds he has very little in common with them, even saying so. Focus on the Family flips out over him signing a Hate Crime bill. Make note of the political strategies advocated by those within this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPS0iVhk510 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-36SgOI8ys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyhmN1Lyv1Q In the meantime while Bill Clinton is winning the Presidency twice during the 90's, we see the story of Dubya. Unlike his father? He IS an evangelical having been caught up in the fever of the times during the 80's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an-3b-jML_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig4AjDljjCg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IMz0fM9cHg And oh hey...here's where a lot of were more so aware of what was happening in the world, and how much these people almost destroyed the country.
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Aug 1, 2015 03:28
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I guess I am an aberration. I know these people, my church isn't their church. My God isn't their God. I would likely be stamped as a heretic by evangelicals. For one I am a gay woman but even leaving that aside I don't believe in hell and while I do believe the bible should be taken seriously, I also am open to the idea that it is all metaphor. Even Jesus may be a metaphor but one who embodies who we should be to be good Christians. I don't believe in free will which is why I believe so strongly in the idea of forgiveness. Our lack of free will is due to this world being a sort of prison, a flawed creation cursed by sin. I also believe that we can break free of the world of sin through wisdom and understanding the word and through meditation and prayer.
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Aug 1, 2015 20:17
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Mandy Thompson posted:Our lack of free will is due to this world being a sort of prison, a flawed creation cursed by sin. I also believe that we can break free of the world of sin through wisdom and understanding the word and through meditation and prayer. I believe almost the same thing strictly because of free will. The choices we make are ours alone and affect everyone and that's why its important to help those who are worse off than you; you're choosing to help out someone less fortunate than you, to be a better person, and maybe, just maybe, they could go on and get better and help out someone who was in their position and give them aid. That sounds like a really important moral, its almost like I read this in an old book somewhere. 
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Aug 2, 2015 03:38
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After spending a couple days backreading this thread, I want to thank you goons for an interesting discussion. I spent the first 9 or 10 years of my life attending a Church of God in Cleveland, Tennessee. The Church's headquarters is there, along with a following that pretty much runs the small town. My family would attend every time the doors were open, and our entire social life was spent in and around Church people. I've seen dozens if not hundreds of people speak in tongues, including my parents. Sometimes this would take the form of people babbling to themselves while a pastor prayed free form. Other times, a church member would yell loudly to the entire congregation for a moment, and another member would "translate" afterward. One of my earliest memories is being chastised for attempting to copy down the words I frequently heard, as well as translations, because *surprise* it never matched-up. The focus on "othering" was an every day thing, and I remember watching very poor people donate far more money than was reasonable to fund missionary adventures across the globe. It wasn't all bad, though, as I got to visit Europe on a trip to see my parents' missionary friends in the Czech Republic. Luckily for me, we moved before I finished elementary school, switching to a much tamer Free Will Baptist denomination in Nashville. And while I attend a Southern Baptist prep school, by the time I graduated, I was absolutely not a Christian. I lost my faith when I undertook an effort to read the Bible cover to cover. I didn't make it very far before deciding the whole thing was a sham and a mess. I still have quite a few Fundies in my FB feed, and I try to stay friends, but it gets old being viewed as a "sheep who has strayed."
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Aug 3, 2015 03:10
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It's always weird to me to see mission trips going to nominally Christian countries like the Czech Republic or whatever. I guess they're the wrong kind of Christian
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Aug 3, 2015 03:21
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icantfindaname posted:It's always weird to me to see mission trips going to nominally Christian countries like the Czech Republic or whatever. I guess they're the wrong kind of Christian Mission trips these days have very little to do with spreading Christianity.
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Aug 3, 2015 03:22
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I know that the thread has moved on, but I want to chime in as a religious jew and say that baptizing any dead jew, and ESPECIALLY a victim of the Shoah, is extraordinarily offensive, to that point that I'd tell a good friend to gently caress right off for supporting it. For a secular equivalent imagine 19th/early 20th century labor rioters being held up as martyrs for the cause of modern libertarianism. I think it's fair to say that certain sects of evangelical christianity are extremely antisemitic despite their very vocal support for Israel and "the jews."
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Aug 3, 2015 03:40
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vintagepurple posted:For a secular equivalent imagine 19th/early 20th century labor rioters being held up as martyrs for the cause of modern libertarianism. I don't think that even comes close. It's a point of reference, but it's a lovely point of reference. vintagepurple posted:I think it's fair to say that certain sects of evangelical christianity are extremely antisemitic despite their very vocal support for Israel and "the jews." No poo poo. when the crazy homeless guy on a soapbox gives you a poo poo-ton of money, you rationalize a way to take it. He tells you you're going to hell unless you convert? well, yeah whatevs. Give me more money tomorrow, please and thanks. You love me, but you hate me (except I don't care about the latter, and I shouldn't).
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Aug 3, 2015 04:01
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Mission trips these days have very little to do with spreading Christianity. Mmhm. At best they are better described as "service trips." At worst they're basically just vacations.
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Aug 3, 2015 05:33
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icantfindaname posted:It's always weird to me to see mission trips going to nominally Christian countries like the Czech Republic or whatever. I guess they're the wrong kind of Christian I knew a girl in college who went on a 'mission' to, I think, Russia or some former Soviet country, to convert Eastern Orthodox Christians to Roman Catholicism. I don't know if it can get any lazier than this.
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Aug 3, 2015 12:45
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Maybe she was going for some IRL version of the crusader kings achievement for mending the great schism.
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Aug 3, 2015 12:49
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Quorum posted:Mmhm. At best they are better described as "service trips." At worst they're basically just vacations. Before going to the Czech Republic, the family friends did a couple years in Fiji, Australia and New Zealand. When we attended services in Prague, apart from the Americans, perhaps half a dozen people were in attendence. The culmination of the missionary efforts (2 years and a LOT of money) was one convert. I don't remember specifics, but he wound-up having a falling out with the missionaries, effectively ending the mission. 
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Aug 3, 2015 13:57
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Mission trips these days have very little to do with spreading Christianity. Have you every taken a look at "CRU" http://www.cru.org/ They catch them going into college. One has to raise money to go on "mission trips" these vary from being a counselor at a camp somewhere in the Midwest to going to China. As one move up the trips get more expensive, and they basically shut people out of the organization if they can't raise the money. Mission trips in a a lot of the organizations have moved towards: vacation/fundraising school/ pyramid scam. Mission work used to be more, go to a place like Haiti bring ophthalmologists to distribute free glasses, or build schools there. (and that still does happen) Now it's raise funds to support the salaries of a bloated not for profit to take a vacation in China, overtly to try to convert Chinese Catholics and to make smarmy comments about Weigurs. I think there is an intentional effort to train people to fund raise for a political end and it's being called "mission work".
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Aug 5, 2015 19:26
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Listened to Janet Parshall again out of boredom to see what they'd say about the debates. She and her husband were kind of discussing the topics, and kept talking glowingly about how good people were like Rubio, Carson, and Huckabee. However, when the topic of John Kasich's response to gay marriage came up. Their cheery, sunny "GOD LOVES US ALL" attitude seemed to instantly shift towards this weird, seething hatred and contempt. It was very surreal because Kasich had a very normal, christian response to it. He came across as very tolerant compared to most of the field, and I actually commend the guy for it. Granted he could have been better with it, but compared to the others in the field? I'll take what I can get. It honestly frustrates me that these people are this intolerant to people that have potentially a a different view of the faith. They seem to scream for their own "tolerance" because they believe in their own way, but when someone dares to not directly go along with their "GOD HATES FAGS, SAVE THE BABIES"-rhetoric, they seem willing to just throw them under their bus at a moments notice. Doesn't matter to them that you're a Christian, do charity and do pretty much everything else that Christian's are taught to do. If you're not out there wanting to burn non-believers at the stake? You're not legitimate to them. In the end? I really believe it's this attitude that is going to do them in.
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Aug 8, 2015 01:31
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You are not saved by works, you are saved by hate.
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Aug 8, 2015 01:53
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VideoTapir posted:You are not saved by works, you are saved by hate. Are we posting warhammer quotes again? I can't tell the difference between these manics and the fictional manics anymore. 
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Aug 8, 2015 02:04
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What's the biblical verse about people not knowing the mind of god? All I'm pulling up is stuff about false prophets.
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Aug 8, 2015 02:09
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Klaus88 posted:Are we posting warhammer quotes again? I can't tell the difference between these manics and the fictional manics anymore. The truly wise are always afraid.
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Aug 8, 2015 02:09
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Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.
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Aug 8, 2015 02:23
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A small mind is easily filled with faith.
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Aug 8, 2015 02:30
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An open mind is like a fortress with the gates unlocked and unbarred.
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Aug 8, 2015 02:57
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There is no such thing as innocence; only degrees of guilt.
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Aug 8, 2015 03:04
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Knowledge is power, hide it well. E: They got ded big shooty guns dat'll kill tons of boys, but if yer can get near em den you've got a chance. Just gotta make sure you bring loads of boys, coz you ain't gonna have a whole lot left when you get close enough ta crump em
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Aug 8, 2015 03:06
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Innocence proves nothing.
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Aug 8, 2015 03:25
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Educate men without faith and you only create clever devils.
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Aug 8, 2015 03:26
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Lives are Christ's currency. Spend them well.
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Aug 8, 2015 03:28
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A logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction!
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Aug 8, 2015 03:32
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Truth is searching for anything that proves you're right no matter how small, and holding on to that, no matter what.
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Aug 8, 2015 03:37
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RandomPauI posted:Truth is searching for anything that proves you're right no matter how small, and holding on to that, no matter what. Get out of here, Ronaldo!
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Aug 8, 2015 03:38
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Reason is the enemy of faith.
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Aug 8, 2015 03:46
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Suffer not the witch to live.
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Aug 8, 2015 04:04
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The translation I always see is,"I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all.". But I suppose they both get the point across.
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Aug 8, 2015 05:54
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