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e: oh gently caress nevermind if you think valve is capable of handling drug testing you don't quite understand the state of their organization
JollyPubJerk fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 00:27
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JollyPubJerk posted:e: oh gently caress nevermind if you think valve is capable of handling drug testing you don't quite understand the state of their organization It's hilarious how big of an autist you are
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Aug 11, 2015 00:31
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CampingCarl posted:A flash in the pan that goes back over a decade. I don't think it affects dota as much as other games but to call drug abuse in esports a flash in the pan is hilariously wrong. When I say flash in the pan, I mean when for the next 6-8 months anything anybody does that is highlight reel worthy, internet doctors are going to accuse them of being on drugs, just like that Reddit post about G because he didn't seem as hyped about beating Secret as the Reddit poster thought he should be. And people are going to be constantly trying to show how much they care about drugs in the scene and want testing in everything when a year ago they didn't care. It's an issue where awareness just leads to people trying too hard to look as if they care and eventual cognitive dissonance. Look at the number of people who enjoyed the McGuire/Sosa thing and then wanted Barry Bonds crucified a few years later. Just accept that your favorite esports guy probably takes some drug at tournaments and then continue enjoying it as you did at the start of the year.
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Aug 11, 2015 00:35
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i mean they handled the secret shop lines with the cosplayer passing out and going to the hospital so swell, after their triple outsourced vendor was being told to fundamentally change the shop format last minute, yeah that enigma main stage black hole they talked up also did a whole... lot of nothing it didn't work ever despite a few of them casted
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Aug 11, 2015 00:36
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The REAL Goobusters posted:It's hilarious how big of an autist you are sad at the same time tho. JollyPubJerk posted:i mean they handled the secret shop lines with the cosplayer passing out and going to the hospital so swell, after their triple outsourced vendor was being told to fundamentally change the shop format last minute, yeah that enigma main stage black hole they talked up also did a whole... lot of nothing it didn't work ever despite a few of them casted lol jpj posts. go yell some racial slurs, it's your talent.
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Aug 11, 2015 00:37
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JollyPubJerk posted:i mean they handled the secret shop lines with the cosplayer passing out and going to the hospital so swell, after their triple outsourced vendor was being told to fundamentally change the shop format last minute, yeah that enigma main stage black hole they talked up also did a whole... lot of nothing it didn't work ever despite a few of them casted What the hell does this have to do with drug testing lol
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Aug 11, 2015 00:39
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denial is a hell of a drug, keep smoking the valve is amazing at everything they do pipe valve employees toking up with underage players at an open bar event and you want them to do drug testing? the pro sports leagues can hardly figure it out. just enjoy watching kids better than you playing dota.
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Aug 11, 2015 00:41
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Goetta posted:Thats a great point Redeye, but before going on I'd like to give a shout out to an IRC channel just connect to synirc.net in your client and check us out at hashtag dota
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Aug 11, 2015 00:41
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JollyPubJerk posted:denial is a hell of a drug, keep smoking the valve is amazing at everything they do pipe Are you really saying a Valve Employee 'toked up' with Sumail or Sonneiko?
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Aug 11, 2015 00:48
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Didn't PPD rage out at broxy and tell him he's a shitlord who's ruining matchmaking and then Broxy started to cry and turned off his stream because PPD is his idol or something? I feel like this is only a minor exaggeration
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Aug 11, 2015 00:49
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when are they going to test the players? before the event? during? after? they arent under contract how do they enforce? they aren't employed and jurisdiction is across continents. yeah, 'just drug test them'
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Aug 11, 2015 00:53
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JollyPubJerk posted:denial is a hell of a drug, keep smoking the valve is amazing at everything they do pipe quote:valve employees toking up with underage players at an open bar event and you want them to do drug testing? the pro sports leagues can hardly figure it out. quote:just enjoy watching kids better than you playing dota.
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Aug 11, 2015 00:56
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JollyPubJerk posted:when are they going to test the players? before the event? during? after? they arent under contract how do they enforce? they aren't employed and jurisdiction is across continents. I personally don't care about drug testing in gaming or sports. But let's not pretend it's some super complicated thing in gaming where it will be in your system while competing vs sports where proper use will lead to a negative test during an event. The biggest complication is deciding on how to handle people who test positive after results have been determined.
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Aug 11, 2015 00:59
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Groovelord Neato posted:<TIPME> #dota, the literal birth place of ld, cyborgmatt and pyrionflax and we never get any shout outs man when you put it like that #dota really is an irredeemable shithole
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Aug 11, 2015 00:59
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Radical posted:man when you put it like that #dota really is an irredeemable shithole its basically the prison from batman rises
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Aug 11, 2015 01:01
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Is there any good Dota streams to watch now or is everyone worth a drat still in the TI cooldown period? RTZ is not worth a drat for the record.
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Aug 11, 2015 01:01
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ESL is already starting to test players at their events and will likely host one of the majors. The testing itself is probably the easiest part of the whole situation. It isn't like Gaben has to conduct the test personally.
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Aug 11, 2015 01:05
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Khorne posted:In order to compete you have to pass a test that can be given at any point during the tournament and will for sure be given immediately after elimination or achieving first. They're not drug testing to put people in jail. They're drug testing to disqualify them from their own event. so games have to wait for results to pass? or do teams automatically forfeit? do you really want that drama just before a finals? or is it retroactive? then what happens to the next place teams? it isn't trivial, and we aren't even talking lawyers yet
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Aug 11, 2015 01:05
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They can figure it out im sure
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Aug 11, 2015 01:11
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I wonder who is going to be the Dota version of Alex Rodriguez.
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Aug 11, 2015 01:11
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What if some of the people are prescribed it, should that bar them from using them?
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Aug 11, 2015 01:12
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JollyPubJerk posted:so games have to wait for results to pass? or do teams automatically forfeit? do you really want that drama just before a finals? And as far as lawyers go, people have to sign a contract to compete. The chance of lawyering being a big issue is pretty slim. Another complication is people with scripts vs people without. Whoa!! Gamers will go doctor shopping if adderall matters that much. Like I said I don't personally care and would be fine if everyone was popping adderall, but your posts are intentionally obtuse and antagonistic toward the idea for no apparent reason. All of these issues are things they can handle well in advance before enacting the policy. There's no big surprise.
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Aug 11, 2015 01:13
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one time i watched broxy and he said that all muslims are suicide bombers
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Aug 11, 2015 01:14
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JollyPubJerk posted:so games have to wait for results to pass? or do teams automatically forfeit? do you really want that drama just before a finals? You do realize that drug testing is commonplace in basically every professional sport right?
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Aug 11, 2015 01:14
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JollyPubJerk posted:denial is a hell of a drug, keep smoking the valve is amazing at everything they do pipe Is this Valve conspiracy also related to the MMR conspiracy you keep ranting about too
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Aug 11, 2015 01:15
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i won six ranked games in a row, gg mmr
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Aug 11, 2015 01:16
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The REAL Goobusters posted:It's hilarious how big of an autist you are Agreed. Also I am glad that this epidemic of drug abuse in pro gaming finally gets the attention is deserves. Look at that sentence and tell me it isnt retarded.
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Aug 11, 2015 01:18
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Prescriptions are not complicated, college athletes with ADHD can give the college a full set of documentation from their physician to allow them to take the medicine while competing
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Aug 11, 2015 01:19
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Scrub-Niggurath posted:You do realize that drug testing is commonplace in basically every professional sport right? Professional athletes are also incredibly wealthy people who have a vested interest in achieving every edge possible while having the resources to dodge the often poorly-funded anti-doping mechanisms of their sport, while surrounded by an entourage of people with a vested interest in keeping the gravy train coming
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Aug 11, 2015 01:23
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Srice posted:Is this Valve conspiracy also related to the MMR conspiracy you keep ranting about too Is that when he said Valve was swindling him out of winning matches by putting him with lower mmr players?
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Aug 11, 2015 01:24
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LMFAO wHo cAREAS HAHA Xd
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Aug 11, 2015 01:25
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TheQat posted:LMFAO wHo cAREAS HAHA Xd
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Aug 11, 2015 01:26
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Asuron posted:Is that when he said Valve was swindling him out of winning matches by putting him with lower mmr players? And whatever else about MMR he has been posting lately. I hope he knows that he's safe and that Valve actually isn't out to get him!
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Aug 11, 2015 01:26
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Srice posted:And whatever else about MMR he has been posting lately. Actually I heard that Valve is out to get him!!! Watch out!
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Aug 11, 2015 01:27
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I think people are too busy creating straw man arguments against elo hell to understand the underlying basis for player's complaints and give them any merit. There is an obvious issue in the ladder of games that are outside of player's control. That is, games where even a higher skilled player has little to no effect on the outcome of the game. Sure, there have been 5.5k players who have played 2.5k accounts up a thousand MMR, but they never follow through with the entire experiment because of sheer frustration of the grinding. The people who do grind accounts for money are doing so successfully only on a handful of heroes where they are able to display their obvious skill differential only because the solo-potential skill ceiling on the hero is the highest (Earth, Invoker, Storm, etc.) They don't grind these accounts picking at random for the home stretch, the last 500 to 1000 MMR. That is all we are talking about here with 'elo hell', the last 500 or so MMR differential between what a player could be playing 50% at, but is actually not at yet nor getting close any time soon assuming a normal player's play schedule. I think people's anecdotal experience with MMR really has more to do with describing that the underlying system of MMR is flawed in the first place; it is far too uncertain. It is not really indicative of proper skill levels. There is far too much mobility of players across the various 'skill brackets'. I've had accounts move as much as 600 points in a day, in both directions in a week's time. People would consider that a considerably different skill tier, yet, it is achievable in two weekend marathon sessions. Is it indicative of skill being at either extreme? Obviously no. When I judge a player's skill level using my experience with the game I can usually boil down my opinion about their relative skill down to a simple question: How many heroes can that player play well at their supposed skill level? If the answer is: Slark, Prophet, BH, Doom - it is very likely that the player is what I would consider overrated for his skill bracket. If the answer is a much larger number, then the player I would most likely consider underrated by the system. I've watched many friends go from 5.5k down to 4k and back since the ranking's release, but with all of them I can say with certainty that some deserved the 5.5k and others deserve the 4.5k, but that is not what their MMR is going to dictate on a given week. It muddles them together. It is completely uncertain, +/- 1000 MMR. I really think it should be doing a much better job than than, inbetween 1-200, and see no reason why it couldn't be. It's funny though, because Valve's system used to appear to judge skill levels in this manner. Your rank would move about based on your performance in a game on a hero based against other players average performance with a given hero at your relative rank. They used to display these bars in your hero profile, before changing it to a system based only upon your own heroes. It's very likely this is still how smurf detection is done today. Many tests have shown in the older systems that win/loss had basically nothing to do with your early MMR. The other factor that was guessed often was the hero damage/building damage numbers. Many people would see how they would move up/down the page numbers on the view tab based mostly on how much hero damage they were doing relative to their teammates in their recent string of games. The remnants of this system lives on with the questionnaires you get at the end of games. If you pay close attention, these only come after games where your number is far off from the rest of your teammate's, or one team's is far from the others. These are also two arguably decent measures for determining relative skill in a game. They of course should not be used for a long term system under too much scrutiny, but are generally good indicators of a widely unmatched game. However, it is pretty apparent that these things no longer matter anymore by the time a player gets to unlock ranked games. Valve did not trust this system to do much of a good job afterwards. It's why they didn't make the number visible early on. Arguably, I don't think they've ever given it a fair chance. They've always had 'all pick' as the sole comparison system. There is a very clear reason why these players will go bracket hopping back and forth at the higher skill levels. The ones who only play a few heroes effectively at the skill level their MMR gets up to are the players who usually stick to just those picks. They are more often than not playing what I call 'gamble strategies'. Heroes that will dominate a game if given a favorable match-up, but are a relative nonfactor in the game otherwise. However, given the inherent abilities of the hero, they are more likely than not to get into a favorable match-up. Heroes like Bristleback, Timber, Slark, BH, Prophet, Viper, Doom, Invoker, Storm. If you give these guys space they can go on and win a game alone, but if they are countered they are not rendered completely useless. The problem is, they all take a concentrated effort to counter, which goes against pub luck. One person's inherent pick versus three people's picks and synergy not being useless to counter. In pub games, when you have 3-4 players in a game picking these 'gamble strategies', games work against the players who are playing other heroes and using their '500 mmr difference' in skill level to try to edge out the victory in the game. It becomes a crapshoot. When you get to certain skill levels, at whatever MMR it is for your server, you can't just 'solo gank' to victory anymore. There is counterganking and 5 man roaming that prevents any sort of one person strategies to guarantee a win anymore. You don't win by picking SF mid when the other team is camping both runes on you and smoke ganking you constantly, without losing their sidelanes because the rest of your team had weak lane match-ups. You're helpless to solo out of those games. It comes down to teamwork and team synergy, and countering the 'gamble strategy' heroes that aren't easily countered effectively. There is a hero or two every patch that might go against this general trend, like the recent Alchemist, but it is otherwise true. This is why its really only a problem towards the top and bottom of the brackets, where teamwork becomes to trump individual skill of the players in terms of the outcome of the game. That's just DotA and the game shouldn't have to change into LoL to fix it. However, the people who employ these 'gamble strategies' get much farther up the bracket than they really should be getting. They do not get forced to play other roles because they are freely able to pick these strategies game after game. This, I argue, is what undermines the ability for MMR to separate the players effectively into their proper skill brackets. They are not being forced to play different roles or different heroes in any of their games if they so choose. The difference between good and great players really is how much experience they have with the game and how much of that experience they've put towards actively learning more. You aren't going to understand the intricacies of playing with teammates on certain heroes unless you have a good understanding of how to play the hero yourself. You need to play the different heroes and roles in the game to be able to understand these little things that does make the real 500 MMR difference amongst players. And yes, if that means you lose games learning to play those heroes or roles, that means you really do deserve to be at a lower MMR relative to the other players who wouldn't drop by changing things up. It is what makes one Bristleback better than the next one, but the more clear way to determine this is to have that player be guilted into playing those other heroes they may not find to be optimally fun every so often, rather than having them duke out more and more Bristleback games much to the woe of anyone else wanting to play against a different sidelane match-up. But with All Pick being the one true mode, this will forever be a problem. No matter what they do, there will always be the battle between the players who understand a gamble strategy well enough to win with it at a higher MMR but not really do anything else at that skill level if the picks in the game dictate they should be trying something else. They will have an unfair percentage of being able to try the strategy again because they have a 50% or so shot at it, whereas there are 9 other players in the game who are equally at stake for rank movement. The change to how the timer countdown only made these things worse. The only way to effectively win games and bracket grind, if you were truly only 500 MMR better than the other players, without playing a small handful of heroes like Invoker, Storm, Earth Spirit, etc. where their skill ceiling is so high you can blow people out of the water with them alone if possible, is to be able to counterpick properly. However, counter picking was punished with the changes. Many players sit on their small handful of gamble strategies and pick them instantly at the last second, giving the other team, who might have marginally better players, little to negative chances to react to the gamble they chose. The intention is good, and I understand they don't want to punish AFKers completely, but in practice, it was possibly the worst solution they could have come up with. Arguably worse than it was before. If players are forced to pick in order, there becomes a necessity for teamwork to be employed and players are not able to employ their gamble strategies at the same frequency as before. There is no reason to completely take away strategies from a player, since they deserve the MMR boost when they can achieve it, but the frequency of it should not be condoned. Even better, forcing players to pick within a limited pool every so often, but that's a step I would merely enjoy more than I think is really necessary for a noticeable improvement in rank uncertainty. However, the only alternative to all pick right now is captains pick. This, in many player's minds, undermines their ability to play to the few strengths they do have outside their comfort zone. They can't pick the support hero they are most comfortable with given that they've already given into the fact they should pick a support next in order to give their team the best chance to succeed, but they are forced to play somebody else's choice for you. Of course nobody players these modes. They go completely against the feelings of the players before. There really is no good excuse why the middling mode, All Draft (not in DotA2), or Random Draft, which will force players to diversify their play, and thus display their true separation in skill better, is not an option. They've already split the brackets into a casual mode an a competitive mode, defining that there is a difference between the two. I can rationalize that if they only care about making a majority happy, and a majority likes to only play Rikimaru running around with huge stomps, followed by games of uselessness inbetween, is how they derive excitement from the game as being the right way to be having fun with the game, then that's great. However, once they split the brackets, they put that mindset into the wrong spot. It's not meaningful the way it is setup now. Like another 5k player said in the thread, the only way to have fun in the bracket while keeping your sanity is to not play the modes allowed in Ranked play anymore. They are the absolute worst modes to solo queue on. You're always in a constant battle between players who have 1 stratted their way to 5k and random death stacks that will stomp your uncoordinated overrated players silly because they've never seen the next level of game before, nor they ever will because they won't branch out to try it. DotA solo queue was much more fun when the large majority of games was 7/10 players randoming and going with whatever they got because they didn't have a number and didn't care if they win or lost because their relative performance on whatever hero they played kept their rank high. You don't see that anymore. The queue has been given all the tools to let people strive towards the lowest common denominator playstyles and it has sucked the fun out of too much of it. Better hope you like the current metagame, its either that, or games full of headaches, since so few players are in it for the fun now in those modes. The most frustrating part about it is knowing it doesn't have to be this way and its just a series of little decisions causing it all to go awry. tl;dr Three nukes and Riki's ulti is still the most fun moveset in -RAD that I've seen. Is there a better way to clown out a disorganized passive picking team? (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 11, 2015 01:27
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same
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Aug 11, 2015 01:29
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Khorne posted:Jordan rubbed people the wrong way too, but it's not because he's a rager/big rear end in a top hat. It's because he wanted to win, and he dedicated himself to that completely and had no tolerance for people who didn't. If you don't want to constantly improve and win then sure that guy will seem like an rear end in a top hat, but you shouldn't be playing with him because you have very different goals when it comes to investing time into the game. Some good points, but I'm going to have to stop you here. Jordan is a huge rear end in a top hat who happens to have had the best PR team in the world (and Twitter didn't exist). He punched teammates in practice, hurled bigotry at a young teammate who idolized him until he broke down in tears, publicly called out the three centers on his team as "21 feet of poo poo", and other douchey things. He was a dick who was very competitive and great at his profession.
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Aug 11, 2015 01:33
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Tweak posted:i wonder what the other members of eg thought when sumail got ganked from a guy who walked right through their ward vision "Sorry Sumail, I know it's my job to watch the minimap and I lost focus for a second" Kibner posted:publicly called out the three centers on his team as "21 feet of poo poo", They were poo poo though. schmitty9800 fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 01:37
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schmitty9800 posted:They were poo poo though. Hey man, you have to be at least ok to have a chain name a sandwich after you. RIP Beef Wennington.
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Aug 11, 2015 01:44
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Goetta posted:Thats a great point Redeye, but before going on I'd like to give a shout out to an IRC channel sorry you weren't part of the forgotten foundation of the dota community
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Aug 11, 2015 01:50
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