Older D&D and Retroclone Thread: From OD&D To 4E

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Older D&D and Retroclone Thread: From OD&D To 4E

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

I seem to remember if you look at the experience charts; to get to 1st level Bard takes less XP than to get to 7th or 8th level Fighter from 5th level Fighter.

# ? Aug 10, 2015 18:57

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 21:41

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

gradenko_2000 posted:

I was reading through the AD&D 1e PHB and I think it's true what they say that there's always something new to discover in these tomes because today I learned about the 1st Edition Bard

* Uses the Fighter's attack table
* Has Thief skills equal to their level-1
* Can cast Druid spells, and has full spell progression starting from level 1 (eat that Paladins/Rangers!)
* Can cast Charm
* Uses the best saving throw between Thieves, Druids and Fighters
* Can provide a +1 attack bonus aura by playing music

Their armor only goes up to Chainmail, but they can even use most weapons including swords, and notably magical swords.

The drawbacks are that they use a d6 for their hit points, the minimum ability scores are brutal if you're playing the game straight (15 STR, 15 DEX, 10 CON, 12 INT, 15 WIS, 15 CHA) and they're probably going to miss out on a few Fighter-specific goodies depending on how you interpret the rules (exceptional STR, CON bonus, weapon specialization).

Still though, Gygax tucked this baby away in an appendix at the very back of the book and warns players/DM that they shouldn't introduce this class lightly because of how powerful it is, but the whole time I was reading it I instead was thinking 'what a perfect generic Adventurer class!', and the bit about it "subsuming" the Rogue and the Fighter made me think that yeah, a class that fights well AND rogues well AND has some battle magic available would remedy LFQW and self-justifying Rogues by quite a bit (setting aside how AD&D doesn't suffer from LFQW as much, but on a conceptual level)

Yeah, but as has already been mentioned, to become that weird old proto-bard you had to alreay work through and abandon previous classes. So you might be a Lv1 bard while everyone is 8th or whatever it worked out to. (I never saw anyone use a bard until it was its own class in 2e.)

They were by far the baddest motherfuckers of the bard lineup though.

(I think Arithon from the Wars of Light and Shadow is probably the most epic character of that style I can think of in a fantasy novel.)

# ? Aug 11, 2015 01:42

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

In 1e a 10th level Bard has 250,003 exp ,the same as a 9th level fighter, and that includes 7 levels of Fighter and 8 levels of Thief. Also they have 7d10+10d6 of Hit points.

Humbug Scoolbus fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Aug 11, 2015

# ? Aug 11, 2015 02:12

whydirt: Apr 18, 2001; Gaz Posting Brigade

They don't get extra thief HD until they surpass their old fighter level. So it'd only be 7d10 + 3d6 altogether.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 03:33

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

They get 9d6 from Bard.

1e Players Handbook posted:

6-sided Dice for Accumulated Hit Points shows an asterisk after the initial
"0" to indicate that the bard has as many hit dice as he or she has
previously earned as a fighter (plus the possible addition of those earned
as a thief if that class level exceeds the class level of fighter). All bard hit
dice (and additional hit points) are additions to existing hit dice - none
are lost for becoming a bard.

They are hit point beasts.

Humbug Scoolbus fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Aug 11, 2015

# ? Aug 11, 2015 05:36

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

It was also explicit that a Bard in the DMG could stretch slightly beyond the level caps if he found one of those 'books of leveling up.' for his old classes. So potentially Fighter 8, Thief 9, Bard whatever. (Still just below name level in either of the other classes, so no multiple followers/strongholds, sadly.)

# ? Aug 11, 2015 10:55

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Having a full array of pick-a-path to final/fully-trained class using 1e/2e balances might be fun.

Priests work their way up in their gods esteem, some become specialty priests and some become paladins. Wizards specialize further and further (or maybe revers it - start with only a school or two and then learn more). Warriors master a style/weapon(s) or master the ways of the creatures/land. Rogues become stealth-fighters or bards.

Obviously there could be dozens of branches for each, and several stages, but the general idea of spending a few levels as a basic class, then learning/reacting to the games as they unfold and progressing to more refined/powerful roles would be fun.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 11:48

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Your description makes me think of e6 systems where you earn a new "class feature" / feat after earning so many thousands more exp, even if your actual level and everything that comes with it stays static.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 12:07

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

I think y'all are in the process of slowly reinventing a Final Fantasy Tactics style job system.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 12:15

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

Come to think of it, E6 sounded cool as heck back when it was still a thing, and I'm still kind of bummed I never got to play.

But thinking back on it, I'm sure there are better games than "first six levels of 3.5" out there to scratch my "brave low-powered fantasy murderhobos" itch.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 12:15

IT BEGINS: Jan 15, 2009; I don't know how to make analogies

Siivola posted:

Come to think of it, E6 sounded cool as heck back when it was still a thing, and I'm still kind of bummed I never got to play.

But thinking back on it, I'm sure there are better games than "first six levels of 3.5" out there to scratch my "brave low-powered fantasy murderhobos" itch.

E6Prc is basically the best way to play 3.5 (IMO). None of the broken stuff, none of the character builds with a half dozen random classes. For all the horrible parts of 3.5 DnD, the huge quantity of material provides a lot of replay value and it's not too hard to balance encounters when players don't have access to really broken spells. It's a great way to simulate the high-end of power without going into 'god-killing' territory.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 14:14

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

FRINGE posted:

Having a full array of pick-a-path to final/fully-trained class using 1e/2e balances might be fun.

Priests work their way up in their gods esteem, some become specialty priests and some become paladins. Wizards specialize further and further (or maybe revers it - start with only a school or two and then learn more). Warriors master a style/weapon(s) or master the ways of the creatures/land. Rogues become stealth-fighters or bards.

Obviously there could be dozens of branches for each, and several stages, but the general idea of spending a few levels as a basic class, then learning/reacting to the games as they unfold and progressing to more refined/powerful roles would be fun.

I need to write up Dragonquest for FATAL and Friends.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 16:17

Zurui: Apr 20, 2005; Even now...

Siivola posted:

Come to think of it, E6 sounded cool as heck back when it was still a thing, and I'm still kind of bummed I never got to play.

But thinking back on it, I'm sure there are better games than "first six levels of 3.5" out there to scratch my "brave low-powered fantasy murderhobos" itch.

Beyond The Wall does this better than anything I've read - it's literally plucky outmatched heroes the game. The only drawback is that it doesn't have enough options for some players. I think one could really make something out of Advanced Beyond The Wall.

E6/E8 can be fun, but playing that way doesn't address any of the issues in 3.5. The machine is still broken at level 1: a Wizard gets a versatile set of abilities, while a Fighter is an unskilled gently caress in a tin can who can hit 5% more than some other people. Feats are wildly variable in power. The skill list has Use Rope. CR is still pretty useless. Rolling HP is at its worst when it's possible to make a character with one hit point (or a fighter with five).

# ? Aug 11, 2015 19:33

IT BEGINS: Jan 15, 2009; I don't know how to make analogies

Zurui posted:

E6/E8 can be fun, but playing that way doesn't address any of the issues in 3.5. The machine is still broken at level 1: a Wizard gets a versatile set of abilities, while a Fighter is an unskilled gently caress in a tin can who can hit 5% more than some other people. Feats are wildly variable in power. The skill list has Use Rope. CR is still pretty useless. Rolling HP is at its worst when it's possible to make a character with one hit point (or a fighter with five).

Yeah, you're going to have to apply more house rules than just 'the game ends at 6/8'. Something like this is basically necessary. I do think it's somewhat implied if you're discussing something like E6 that you're dealing with experienced players who understand the gaping holes in the system.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 19:52

hectorgrey: Oct 14, 2011

Besides stopping at 6th level, I'd be tempted to merge Fighter and Rogue as a sort of "Non-Magical Adventurer" class (inspired by Spears of the Dawn). Basically, the Fighter would get all of the Fighter/Rogue skill list and the Bard's skill points. They wouldn't get sneak attack, but instead unaware enemies would be considered helpless for the purposes of a coup de grace, regardless of who does it (nicked from Star Wars d20 Revised). They wouldn't be as good at skill-monkeying as the (at this point defunct) Rogue, but they'd certainly be acceptable - and given a 6th level cap, the Wizard wouldn't be able to outdo them at everything yet.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 20:43

Nihilarian: Oct 2, 2013

There was a guy making classes specifically designed for e6. I haven't seen it in a while but it was pretty cool

# ? Aug 12, 2015 02:07

Ratpick: Oct 9, 2012; And no one ate dinner that night.

Zurui posted:

Beyond The Wall does this better than anything I've read - it's literally plucky outmatched heroes the game. The only drawback is that it doesn't have enough options for some players. I think one could really make something out of Advanced Beyond The Wall.

E6/E8 can be fun, but playing that way doesn't address any of the issues in 3.5. The machine is still broken at level 1: a Wizard gets a versatile set of abilities, while a Fighter is an unskilled gently caress in a tin can who can hit 5% more than some other people. Feats are wildly variable in power. The skill list has Use Rope. CR is still pretty useless. Rolling HP is at its worst when it's possible to make a character with one hit point (or a fighter with five).

Speaking of Advanced Beyond the Wall, what options in particular would you like to see in the game?

I actually quite like the simplicity of the game: boiling characters down to three basic archetypes (Sword Person, Skill Person, Spell Person) really fits the genre, and you get a lot of differentiation between characters depending on which playbooks you have available. To translate things into D&D terms, Beyond the Wall represents Thieves, Rangers and Bards as Rogues, the differences coming from the skills they get as well as which ability scores the playbooks gravitate towards.

# ? Aug 12, 2015 08:53

lifg: Dec 4, 2000; <this tag left blank>; Muldoon

I'm planning a game with 4 players, 2 of which can have never played an RPG before. I'll be DMing. I'm planning a hex crawl.

What system would be good for this? Ideally I'd like something with lots of fun classes and a one page character sheet.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 02:35

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Rules Cyclopedia (and Dark Dungeons as its free retroclone) is fully equipped to let you run a dungeon crawl, and the character sheets are short too: 6 stats, AC, HP, saving throws, attack bonus/to-hit numbers

What do you mean lots of fun classes, though?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 04:01

Babylon Astronaut: Apr 19, 2012

RC is the most polished basic D&D experience. The Gazetteers are on Drive Thru RPG now, so there are tons of classes. That said, I always play fighter because you can make all kinds of fighters that play differently. Quiver of harpoons, spiked shield, net is a good one and has a different gameplan than Bastard sword and bolas.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 04:12

lifg: Dec 4, 2000; <this tag left blank>; Muldoon

gradenko_2000 posted:

What do you mean lots of fun classes, though?

I've found that newer players do well with lots of basic classes. It sparks their imaginations. Like in DCC and Grey Matter.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 05:37

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

lifg posted:

I've found that newer players do well with lots of basic classes. It sparks their imaginations. Like in DCC and Grey Matter.

if you're willing to ignore the controversy surrounding it, Adventurer Conqueror King System would be a very good choice(DCC would be fine as well, as long as you're willing to be a bit more forgiving to the newbs than DCC usually is)

# ? Aug 18, 2015 09:19

remusclaw: Dec 8, 2009

ACKS unnecessarily changed the combat system, it might work well, I don't know, but it does kill some of the familiarity more true to D&D retroclones have.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 09:24

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

remusclaw posted:

ACKS unnecessarily changed the combat system, it might work well, I don't know, but it does kill some of the familiarity more true to D&D retroclones have.

what did it change exactly?(I'll admit the parts of an RPG about actually running it are generally the parts I have the hardest time remembering, which has been a stumbling block towards me actually running anything)

# ? Aug 18, 2015 09:28

remusclaw: Dec 8, 2009

Attack rolls are done differently, it doesn't seem a hard change to grok, but it makes you spend time on a spot that is probably second nature to most D&D players. Players have an attack throw value that goes down as they level up. the enemy has an ac value that goes up from 0 . You roll higher than those two numbers added together and you hit, with the normal caveat that 1s always miss and 20s always hit. So a level 5 fighter with an attack throw value of 7+ attacking a goblin wearing plate AC7 would need a 14 to hit. ATV 7+ AC7=14 to hit.

E: Thanks for asking me the question actually, I never looked at it in depth before now and it actually doesn't seem so bad as my initial impressions of it were.

remusclaw fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Aug 18, 2015

# ? Aug 18, 2015 09:41

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

remusclaw posted:

Attack rolls are done differently, it doesn't seem a hard change to grok, but it makes you spend time on a spot that is probably second nature to most D&D players. Players have an attack throw value that goes down as they level up. the enemy has an ac value that goes up from 0 . You roll higher than those two numbers added together and you hit, with the normal caveat that 1s always miss and 20s always hit. So a level 5 fighter with an attack throw value of 7+ attacking a goblin wearing plate AC7 would need a 14 to hit. ATV 7+ AC7=14 to hit.

E: Thanks for asking me the question actually, I never looked at it in depth before now and it actually doesn't seem so bad as my initial impressions of it were.

interesting, still overall doesn't seem anywhere near as confusing as THAC0 though(or at least the version TSR D&D/AD&D uses)

also I'll say this ACKS probably has one of the best Cleave variations I've seen in a RPG(especially since it's actually useful unlike most variants which do retarded restrictions based on Hit Dice for some reason that leads to them being only useful in very specific situations)

# ? Aug 18, 2015 10:59

JonBolds: Feb 6, 2015

drrockso20 posted:

Adventurer Conqueror King System would be a very good choice

This also fits your 'lots of base classes' situation because if someone says they want to be a lizardman sorcerer, you can just whip that poo poo up using their class creation rules in the splatbook.

It also has rules to expand hexcrawling into high-level situations, if you end up needing those.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:13

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

JonBolds posted:

This also fits your 'lots of base classes' situation because if someone says they want to be a lizardman sorcerer, you can just whip that poo poo up using their class creation rules in the splatbook.

It also has rules to expand hexcrawling into high-level situations, if you end up needing those.

Are the expanded hexcrawl rules in the core rulebook or the supplement?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:22

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Dndclassics / DTRPG just put up the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB for sale

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:48

lifg: Dec 4, 2000; <this tag left blank>; Muldoon

Thanks for the advice everyone. I went to buy ACK, but I lost track of time and suddenly had an hour to put the game together. ACK was a bit too complex to absorb and teach in that time.

I ended up creating some quick rules and running with it. Results were: "didn't suck."

Gonna give ACK a proper try sometime soon.

# ? Aug 19, 2015 04:32

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

lifg posted:

Thanks for the advice everyone. I went to buy ACK, but I lost track of time and suddenly had an hour to put the game together. ACK was a bit too complex to absorb and teach in that time.

I ended up creating some quick rules and running with it. Results were: "didn't suck."

Gonna give ACK a proper try sometime soon.

make sure you have a copy of the Player's Companion expansion as well for maximum usability(Domains At War as well if you want to do some larger scale battles), also this blog has some really useful stuff; http://www.bythisaxe.co/ and here's some miscellaneous fan made ACKS stuff I had laying around on my computer; ACKS Stuff

# ? Aug 19, 2015 06:58

JonBolds: Feb 6, 2015

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is smart stuff

Arivia posted:

Are the expanded hexcrawl rules in the core rulebook or the supplement?

They expanded rules for running a kingdom n' such are mathy, and they are in the core rulebook.

# ? Aug 19, 2015 18:25

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Anyone know a good program for making simple, dungeon maps? You know, just boxes on graph paper?

# ? Aug 21, 2015 00:29

LashLightning: Feb 20, 2010; You know you didn't have to go post that, right?
But it's fine, I guess...
You just keep being you!

There's a website called donjon that does a lot of different random generators, such as simple dungeons. It may add a bunch of things like encounters, but you can just ignore those/not print them.

Edit: ugh, phone-posting :gonk:

LashLightning fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Aug 21, 2015

# ? Aug 21, 2015 01:36

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Grid Cartographer

http://www.davidwaltersdevelopment.com/tools/gridcart/

I started an AD&D game just to be able to combine it with the random dungeon creation rules.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 03:32

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

LashLightning posted:

There's a website called donjon that does a lot of different random generators, such as simple dungeons. It may add a bunch of things like encounters, but you can just ignore those/not print them.

Edit: ugh, phone-posting

Thanks! This will be great for when I get lazy.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Grid Cartographer

http://www.davidwaltersdevelopment.com/tools/gridcart/

I started an AD&D game just to be able to combine it with the random dungeon creation rules.

And this looks great for when I want some more controls. Thanks as well!

# ? Aug 21, 2015 03:35

markus_cz: May 10, 2009

Hello thread.

I'm planning an old-school campaign where we intend to explore the best modules, both old and new. I already have quite a bit of them planned, however they're mostly dungeons. Can someone recommend some of the wilderness-based, sandboxy ones? The idea is that, after a beginning adventure or two, I'll take a sandbox adventure and let the players explore the map and its quests, while I'll start dropping future adventure hooks and all the brilliant dungeons around the said map.

I've already heard that the Isle of Dread is great, and I want to play it, however it seems too "different" so I don't think I can put most of the more normal adventures on that map.

People seem to like Night's Dark Terror, could someone tell me a bit more? It is suitable?

Are there any other similar module (again, both old and new)? They don't need to cover a large area. I need at least a starting map where I can drop two, three other adventures, and it'll grow organically from there.

markus_cz fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Aug 23, 2015

# ? Aug 23, 2015 09:19

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

markus_cz posted:

Hello thread.

I'm planning an old-school campaign where we intend to explore the best modules, both old and new. I already have quite a bit of them planned, however they're mostly dungeons. Can someone recommend some of the wilderness-based, sandboxy ones? The idea is that, after a beginning adventure or two, I'll take a sandbox adventure, let the players explore the map and its quests, while I'll start dropping future adventure hooks all the brilliant dungeons around the said map.

I've already heard that the Isle of Dread is great, and I want to play it, however it seems too "different" so I don't think I can put most of the more normal adventures on that map.

People seem to like Night's Dark Terror, could someone tell me a bit more? It is suitable?

Are there any other similar module (again, both old and new)? They don't need to cover a large area. I need at least a starting map where I can drop two, three other adventures, and it'll grow organically from there.

Sounds to me for a regional map it might be a good idea to use the Implied Setting that OD&D used and the map from Outdoor Survival that it used, there's a really good PDF that summarizes it rather well and the only reason I don't link it right now is due to me posting from phone, but it's not hard to find either

# ? Aug 23, 2015 12:02

90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

This one?

quote:

So this is the setting of original D&D: a frontier land, perhaps with a single state in its center, with wilderness populated by creatures of myth,
legend and giant creature films. It is a world of Arthurian castles, knights templar, necromancers, dinosaurs and cavemen. It is wild, and it feels
profoundly like the world someone who watched every cheesy science fiction movie about giant monsters and every classic horror film would
make. This is bolted onto a world with openly Tolkienesque elements - elves, goblins, orcs, balrogs, ents, hobbits - and other entries that
quickly became generic fantasy because they were in the D&D books. The result is far more gonzo and funhouse than people give D&D credit
for, and I think it winds up being a good mix.

# ? Aug 23, 2015 12:07

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 21:41

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

chrisoya posted:

This one?

Yup that's the one, really wish he'd collect the posts he's made for some of his other setting ideas into a PDF as well

# ? Aug 23, 2015 12:19

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